Reduce spin?

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Barracuda

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Messages
766
Reaction score
4
Location
Texas
Didn't quite know where to put this hated to start a new thread but..I have a scratch built 49" BT-80(bumblebee) that I use for my video w/the keychain camera.I'm trying to build another where it has little spin as possible.The bumblebee flys pretty srtaight but I was wanting to build something different .I also have a AT barracuda that spins like crazy so it's no good for vid flites,already tried it,just thought some of ya'll(yes I'm from Tx.)might have some good experience with fin design for making as straight a flite as possible e.i.BT,fin shape,length ect.Thanks:confused:
 
I don't know what it has to do with the shape of the fin, but the straighter they are on the BT the better.
 
I haven't even built it yet but the bumblebee has no airfoils on it and it flys very true but I think thats mostly because of the small motors I fly it on.I wanted to design a new one strictly for vid flites and oh yea the fun of it:D

Photo064.jpg
 
airfoiling can add more spin,, simply because your adding extra precision..if that makes sense ... keep it simple. and during recovery filming you can try dual chutes.
 
I don't think the actual planform shape (silhouette) of the fin has much effect on it at all (though I have no data to prove it and if anyone does feel free to correct me on this!). The most important factors are the airfoil being COMPLETELY symmetrical, and the fins being glued on as absolutely straight radially (90 degrees from the tube surface) as possible, and of course as absolutely straight longitudinally (parallel to the long axis of the rocket) as possible...

I'd rank those in order of importance as:
1) longitudinally straight (parallel to the long axis of the rocket)-- if the fin isn't glued on straight, but at a tiny angle, that angle is going to act like a rudder pointed off to one side-- IE instant spin once it leaves the rod, but probably a fairly regular rate, increasing as speed increases and decreasing as speed decreases. The rocket will rotate because that fin will ALWAYS be at some angle of attack to the airflow and generating lift.

2) airfoil unsymmetrical-- if the airfoil is sanded even slightly off-center, meaning usually the trailing edge is slightly wider on one side than the other, but a leading edge can be sanded slightly off center as well... the fin is going to generate aerodynamic lift perpendicular to the surface of the fin, just as an airplane wing does. This perpendicular lift will be translated to roll (spin).

3) radial alignment-- if the fins are "cockeyed" and not as close to perpendicular to the tube as possible, when an angle of attack ends up being induced due to normal flight forces, the fin is going to act on the rocket to generate roll, because the fin is at an angle to the tube, therefore some of its corrective force will act to create a roll motion due to the force being generated along the width of the fin being out of line with the centerline of the rocket...

If it were me, to maintain the absolute minimum roll possible, I'd go with unairfoiled fins left square cut (more drag, but eliminates the possibility of incorrect airfoils inducing perpendicular lift and creating roll, assuming all the fins are sanded with their edges perfectly square). Ensure that the fins are mounted EXACTLY along the fin lines, by mounting them to ONE SIDE of the fin lines on the tube (just make sure they're ALL to the right or the left, whichever side you choose) and use either a fin alignment tool or a cardboard jig to ensure that the fins all remain exactly 90 degrees to the tube surface, and either 120 degrees to each other (for three fins) or 90 degrees to each other (for four fins) while drying.

Of course, if you REALLY want rock-solid video and want to do an advanced project, I saw on Brittain Fraley's website where he did a "sun-sensor based anti-roll stability system" for his camera rockets... it utilizes several photocells feeding their input into a controller, that controller comparing the photocell outputs to each other... the photocells are arranged radially around the rocket, with the "center" cell supposed to be facing the direction of the sun, therefore generating the highest voltage signal. The other sensors placed partway around the tube at regular intervals get less and less sun, becuase they're pointing further and further away from the direction of the sun, and therefore generate a lower voltage signal to the controller. The controller compares these voltages, and when the sensors on one side of the sun sensor start generating a higher voltage than the 'center' sensor, it automatically moves a servo in the appropriate direction, which then moves a small pair of roll-control fins, moving in opposite directions, to roll the rocket in the opposite direction until the "center" sun sensor is directly in line with the sun again and generating the highest signal, and neutralizes the fins back to center. He showed test videos with the system turned off-- rocket lifts off, starts rolling, and the video goes squirrelly... then he does a second flight with the system on-- rocket takes off, starts to roll maybe 5-10 degrees clockwise, and the small fin can be seen steering to the left, instantly re-centering the rocket... any drift in roll either right or left is instantly countered by the pair of fins moving in opposite directions on opposite sides of the rocket... As the rocket slows down and nears apogee, the rocket starts to tip over from vertical, and the fins start deflecting back and forth, increasingly severely, as the rocket heels over at apogee... but of course the rocket is moving so slowly the small fins have virtually no effect even though they're virtually pegged "hard over" because there's not enough airflow over them to generate much force. The rocket ejects, and the fins again try to steer the rocket so that the sun sensors remain "centered" but of course they can't, so they sorta "flail about" on the trip back down...

VERY interesting project... might actually be one where a heli gyro might work (of course gyro drift might still make sun-sensors more desirable and render the gyro idea a non-starter...)

Later! OL JR :)
 
Ok thanks luke I think I'll stick w/squared off fins and a fin jig..like to keep it simple:)
 
These are snapshots from one of my videos..just had to find the ones that weren't blurred.......

vlcsnap-5034826.jpg

vlcsnap-5034454.jpg

vlcsnap-4707984.jpg
 
Ok thanks luke I think I'll stick w/squared off fins and a fin jig..like to keep it simple:)

For some reason I'm thinking four fins are better than three as well... IIRC three will tend to spin more in a crosswind...

Later and good luck! OL JR :)
 
For some reason I'm thinking four fins are better than three as well... IIRC three will tend to spin more in a crosswind...

Four fins is a definite advantage during construction because it's much easier to ensure that they are aligned correctly.

I've been building rockets to carry cameras for a while and getting rid of spin is a major goal. Here are some thing's I've learned.

Straight fins are a must and four fins are easier to align. If you extend the fins at least a little past the bottom of the body tube, you can use a simple jig made from peices of wood (such as rulers for a small rocket) to make sure opposite fins are aligned with each other and a right-angle to make sure the others are in line.

Larger fins are better (unless they are too large :)).

The motor mount also needs to be aligned well, but that's easier than making sure the fins are on right.

A larger rocket spins less. My rockets have gotten bigger while the cameras have gotten smaller. I've found that larger rockets spin less. Maybe it's because small imperfections in alignment of the fins or motor mount make less of a difference.

Rockets spin more when the motor is burning. I think this may be due to the motor mount being a little askew or the motor's thrust being a bit off-center. So, a higher-thrust, but shorter-duration motor might help. The rocket spins less when it is coasting.

Less expensive cameras blur more when the rocket spins. The tiny, inexpensive cameras are nice because of their small size and low weight, but they don't take very good video. And the video gets worse when there is a lot of motion in the scene. A better camera will handle the motion better with less blur.

-- Roger
 
Last edited:
Thanks all I'll take everything into consideration..this is my design thus far decided on 3 fins I think, running low on balsa but I haven't slotted anything yet.The coupler in the middle is also a baffle thats why there's 3 centering rings

View attachment vid rocket.ork
 
Four fins is a definite advantage during construction because it's much easier to ensure that they are aligned correctly.

Seems to me four fins are also better at reducing spin also, not only because of the easier alignment with each other and the body tube during the construction phase, but also because an odd number of fins, (three or five) when, at an angle of attack, one fin presents more surface area than the others to the slipstream, which means it generates slightly more corrective force than the other two, which means that fin is putting slightly more corrective force into the rocket on one side, which would tend to make the rocket roll slightly away from that additional force as it pitches or yaws back to the zero angle of attack. Even numbers of fins, being in opposing pairs, present identical surface areas to the slipstream and therefore should, (theoretically) produce virtually identical corrective forces on opposite sides of the rocket in the same direction, thereby canceling out any inducement to roll from the pitch/yaw corrective force.

A larger rocket spins less. My rockets have gotten bigger while the cameras have gotten smaller. I've found that larger rockets spin less. Maybe it's because small imperfections in alignment of the fins or motor mount make less of a difference.

Are you talking larger diameter or longer?? It only makes sense... a larger rocket, (fatter diameter) will rotate more slowly, like a skater doing a spin with her arms extended (mmm... skater girls...) A skinny rocket (small diameter) should rotate in roll faster like a skater with her arms pulled in...

Longer rockets, of course, have longer moments of inertia and rotate about the pitch/yaw axes slower, but are also slower to correct, and slower to stop their motion after returning to zero angle of attack (tail waggle or oscillation).

Less expensive cameras blur more when the rocket spins. The tiny, inexpensive cameras are nice because of their small size and low weight, but they don't take very good video. And the video gets worse when there is a lot of motion in the scene. A better camera will handle the motion better with less blur.

-- Roger

Well, it is what it is... of course you want the best camera you can afford, but still...

A well-built rocket that doesn't spin will make the footage look that much better, whether it's a castoff keychain cam or a HD Pro-Hero or whatever...
Whatever you have, a better flying rocket and better recovery setup will improve the quality, and a crappy flying rocket flailing around under an irregular chute or whatever will make crappy footage no matter HOW good the camera...

Good points Roger!

Later! OL JR :)
 
Back
Top