wadding

Hey everyone,
I've been wondering about this for sometime. What makes recovery wadding so special, other than being fireproof? Are there any substitutes? Is it really necessary? Can you make your own?

Thanks for the help, go Patriots!

skybuster said:

Hey everyone,
I've been wondering about this for sometime. What makes recovery wadding so special, other than being fireproof?

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I've been told that it has to be made from Charmin. That's special.

Are there any substitutes? Is it really necessary? Can you make your own?

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Anything that blocks the hot particles from the motor's ejection charge while not catching on fire and still allowing the recovery system to fit in the rocket and deploy will work.

Some alternatives people use include baffles, lettuce, shredded cellulose insulation (aka "dog barf"), parachute protectors (sheets of Nomex or Kevlar fabric), and flameproof crepe paper.

-- Roger

Yes, crepe paper. I buy the dollar store party decorating streamer stuff - works great.

If you fly large diameters...good ole Walmart popcorn (akin to buttered stryofoam) absorbs the heat and gives it that irresistable just-baked flavour the locals can't resist (coyotes, rabbits, road runners, etc) and leaves your payload bay Movie Theatre fresh! Theoretically, it's bio-degradeable, but I've never gone back to look....

fyrwrxz said:

If you fly large diameters...good ole Walmart popcorn (akin to buttered stryofoam) absorbs the heat and gives it that irresistable just-baked flavour the locals can't resist (coyotes, rabbits, road runners, etc) and leaves your payload bay Movie Theatre fresh! Theoretically, it's bio-degradeable, but I've never gone back to look....

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That explains that group of folks out on your launch field, trying to find their way to the Promised Land. A pillar of fire, and manna from heaven.

jadebox said:

I've been told that it has to be made from Charmin. That's special.



Anything that blocks the hot particles from the motor's ejection charge while not catching on fire and still allowing the recovery system to fit in the rocket and deploy will work.

Some alternatives people use include baffles, lettuce, shredded cellulose insulation (aka "dog barf"), parachute protectors (sheets of Nomex or Kevlar fabric), and flameproof crepe paper.

-- Roger

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All of the above, but unfortunately the best wadding I've used is Pink fiberglass insulation. It has very good thermal blocking properties. Unfortunately it is not biodegradable........at all.

GDJ said:

All of the above, but unfortunately the best wadding I've used is Pink fiberglass insulation. It has very good thermal blocking properties. Unfortunately it is not biodegradable........at all.

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You are absolutely correct... this stuff is HORRIBLE from an environmental standpoint... so is pillow ticking and other 'artificial fibers'... They simply WILL NOT biodegrade... they may eventually end up getting 'buried' or covered over with vegetation, but you can bury fiberglass insulation in a spot and dig it up 20 years later and it'll still be there...

In short, NEVER use fiberglass insulation or other artificial fibers for wadding...

One can mix a borax solution and use it to treat paper (even toilet paper but from what I've seen it's more trouble than it's worth) or even cotton... Some of the earliest wadding was loose cotton (like cotton balls but large wads like that used for wound dressings) treated with a flameproofing solution made from borax (borate?). At least this is biodegradable... borate is actually a plant fertilizer, which most of the country is actually deficient in... (micronutrient).

The best and cheapest alternatives I've seen are the teflon pom-poms that Micromeister has shown how to make on various threads here before (reusable and secured to the shock cord) and lettuce, cabbage, or other "greens"...

Haven't heard of popcorn before... that's a new one by me... seems like popcorn could smolder pretty long though if flaming bits of BP embedded themselves in it... after all the rage in farm country now is corn-burning furnaces... (corn burns very well in a forced-air furnace... I could just see bits of flaming popcorn burning and smoldering as they fall out of the sky like fallout...)

Later! OL JR

You can also use a Kevlar or Nomex heatshield, or install a baffle, instead of using wadding. Baffles and Nomex blankets are my two main methods of protecting the recovery components of my rockets now.

Estes recovery wadding is indeed TP that has been treated with a flame retardant (boric acid, I think). It has always worked fine for me and is what I use in my small diameter rockets and micros.

sylvie369 said:

That explains that group of folks out on your launch field, trying to find their way to the Promised Land. A pillar of fire, and manna from heaven.

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The first clue we had about impacting the local environment was all the prairie dogs with 3-d glasses....

I used a boric acid/borax solution to treat paper towels .
rex

Oh, come on....why make it when you can buy a lifetime supply cheaper then a few rolls of TP......

Dog Barf!

Go to home depot and get a bale of blown in cellulose insulation. It's already pre treated with fire retardant and it will break down fairly quickly. I've never been to a launch site where it wasn't allowed. It's also pre-made so you won't spend any time

cbrarick said:

Oh, come on....why make it when you can buy a lifetime supply cheaper then a few rolls of TP......

Dog Barf!

Go to home depot and get a bale of blown in cellulose insulation. It's already pre treated with fire retardant and it will break down fairly quickly. I've never been to a launch site where it wasn't allowed. It's also pre-made so you won't spend any time

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I just have one problem... no place to store a bale of the stuff.

chadrog said:

Yes, crepe paper. I buy the dollar store party decorating streamer stuff - works great.

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I buy the large sheets at Hobby Lobby, using a 40% off coupon (on any coupon week when I don't need a kit, and I'm buried under kits right now), and cut it down into sheets. It's easy to cut it down, as it's already folded to an appropriate width.

I don't actually have any of that right now; I was using it in preference to the Estes fireproof toilet paper, and so the EFTP wadding piled up in my range box. I'm flying mostly using Wal-Mart engine packs which include wadding, you see. So now I have a big pile of that stuff.

GDJ said:

All of the above, but unfortunately the best wadding I've used is Pink fiberglass insulation. It has very good thermal blocking properties. Unfortunately it is not biodegradable........at all.

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Yep. I forgot to include "biodegradable" in the description of what would work. Not only would things like fiberglass insulation become litter, but they could be hazardous to animals.

-- Roger

jadebox said:

Yep. I forgot to include "biodegradable" in the description of what would work. Not only would things like fiberglass insulation become litter, but they could be hazardous to animals.

-- Roger

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It is a concern to me for sure. I haven't used fibreglass since I returned to the hobby last year (the last rocket I launched before returning was 1988 or so). So far I've used the Estes wadding with mixed results. Smaller rockets it works very well. Bigger rockets, not so well.

I will look up the cellulose for cost and availability. Otherwise, I am considering a baffle system for the larger rockets in my fleet.

GDJ-serendipity! I was going thru an old footlocker of rocket crap and found a mint pack of *gasp* Canaroc pink 'insulation wadding' -yessir folks-it's fibreglas! A discussion about flame proof moose turds devolved from there...

For larger Estes type rockets (Fat Boy, for example), go buy a pack of paper muffin cups from the grocery store. They work very well for those larger diameter tubes.

-Kevin

fyrwrxz said:

GDJ-serendipity! I was going thru an old footlocker of rocket crap and found a mint pack of *gasp* Canaroc pink 'insulation wadding' -yessir folks-it's fibreglas! A discussion about flame proof moose turds devolved from there...

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:rofl: Okay, that is F-ing funny!

troj said:

For larger Estes type rockets (Fat Boy, for example), go buy a pack of paper muffin cups from the grocery store. They work very well for those larger diameter tubes.

-Kevin

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Excellent suggestion! Since they are very inexpensive, I will try this at my next launch.

I read somewhere that Quest wadding is just parade float pomps. 300 sheets for $2.50 compares favorably to 100 sheets for $6.00 from Quest. However, unless you have a local source or can find a bunch of people who want to go in on an order the $8 shipping makes it less of a bargain.

While FP tissue wadding, Blow-in insulation (dog Barf) and Crepe Paper are the norm in the hobby.

There are several other materials and practices that can and have been used for a vary long time as "permanent and semi-permanent" Wadding in Micro, Model and Large model rockets up to 5" in diameter.

Mark mentioned Kevlar and Nomex chute protectors which are great but on the expensive side.

My personal prefence has been to replace FP wadding with Teflon Streamers in micros and smaller Model rockets. That's right Plain old Plumbers white teflon sealing tape works great in 1/2" and 3/4" widths. or in slightly thicker military grade Thread sealing tape in muted colors in 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", 1" 1-1/2" and 2" widths on 43foot rolls from McMaster-Carr. or other indurstrial supply places.

For slightly larger model rodets and Large Clustered powered models rockets up to 5" in diamenter the is the Teflon Plumbers Tape Pom-Poms.
a single 30 strand ball works super in models BT-5 to BT-50. 2 of those same Pom-Poms work great in BT-55 & BT-60 models. 3- Pom-poms for BT-70 & BT-80 with 4 to 5 doing the job very well in larger tubes Up to 5" or so.

These Pom-poms are made with 3/4" Very cheap PLumbers white teflon Tape. I've gotten the stuff from Harbor freight 10 rolls for 2 bucks or less on sale. it's always available in my neck of the woods at the dollar stores usually 2 to 4 rolls for a dollar. Cheap, Cheap stuff to used.
Add about 4" of 70-100lb kevlar line and a good amount of Talc baby powder while laying out these 3/4" x 12" long strips it all the additional material needed. tied to the shock line below the chute attachment butterfly these Pom-poms stay with the model and generally outlast it...I have some i've used in two or three models. They don't need anymore attention the a shaking and sometimes a little more Talc baby powder after 4 or so flights.

I converted to dog barf pretty recently but I am sold on it. I now use it exclusively although I will still wrap a sheet of Estes wadding (get a ton of it in the blast-off packs) around a plastic chute sometimes. I have a ton of large reclosable 1 and 2 gallon bags that I split the bale into.

Dog barf - $10 worth will last you years. I am using the same bag from the late 90s right now - only one rocket has lasted as long!

Micromeister said:

While FP tissue wadding, Blow-in insulation (dog Barf) and Crepe Paper are the norm in the hobby.

There are several other materials and practices that can and have been used for a vary long time as "permanent and semi-permanent" Wadding in Micro, Model and Large model rockets up to 5" in diameter.

Mark mentioned Kevlar and Nomex chute protectors which are great but on the expensive side.

My personal prefence has been to replace FP wadding with Teflon Streamers in micros and smaller Model rockets. That's right Plain old Plumbers white teflon sealing tape works great in 1/2" and 3/4" widths. or in slightly thicker military grade Thread sealing tape in muted colors in 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", 1" 1-1/2" and 2" widths on 43foot rolls from McMaster-Carr. or other indurstrial supply places.

For slightly larger model rodets and Large Clustered powered models rockets up to 5" in diamenter the is the Teflon Plumbers Tape Pom-Poms.
a single 30 strand ball works super in models BT-5 to BT-50. 2 of those same Pom-Poms work great in BT-55 & BT-60 models. 3- Pom-poms for BT-70 & BT-80 with 4 to 5 doing the job very well in larger tubes Up to 5" or so.

These Pom-poms are made with 3/4" Very cheap PLumbers white teflon Tape. I've gotten the stuff from Harbor freight 10 rolls for 2 bucks or less on sale. it's always available in my neck of the woods at the dollar stores usually 2 to 4 rolls for a dollar. Cheap, Cheap stuff to used.
Add about 4" of 70-100lb kevlar line and a good amount of Talc baby powder while laying out these 3/4" x 12" long strips it all the additional material needed. tied to the shock line below the chute attachment butterfly these Pom-poms stay with the model and generally outlast it...I have some i've used in two or three models. They don't need anymore attention the a shaking and sometimes a little more Talc baby powder after 4 or so flights.

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John- I'd heard of these but only rumour, thanks for the post and now the mystery is gone and I'm gonna have to try these. Do they also have a kinda anti-zipper effect? Do you tie them to the kevlar to stay in the rocket or come out? I'm gonna make a couple today just to play with 'em. Mite need to launch something tomorrow. Thanks again!

For me (and maybe it's just me) it comes down to economy.
What's the cheapest that's going to protect the parachute?

On a large diameter body tube (which could use a lot of wadding) I use baffles or a nomex protector.
Use a baffle if you are going to fly a certain larger diameter rocket a lot.

Smaller diameter rockets BT-50, 55 and 60, I use crepe paper squares cut from large sheets I got on sale at a party store.
On sale it was 1/10th the price of the Estes wadding. They protect the parachute just fine.
But, crepe paper wadding is tough to install in tubes smaller than a BT-50.
Years back, Centuri sold crepe paper wadding for their Stellar line of rockets.

On MicroMaxx, BT-5 and BT-20 size tubes, I use the Estes wadding. One package can last a long time when used just in smaller tubes.

Dog Barf is the cheapest route and I've used it on occasion. For me, I find the seal is better with the crepe paper.

Baffles are available for smaller diameter tubes, but a single baffle can cost as much as one package of the more expensive Estes wadding.
You just have to weigh out how much you want to spend to protect your parachute.

Thanks for all the replies! Right now I'm building an Estes QCC explorer my friend gave me for Christmas, which is what brought this question back to mind. Since it's a BT-60, it takes many pieces of wadding, and I've been thinking about a baffle. With baffles, I've read that you should put them as far up as possible leaving room for the parachute and shock cord, I was wondering if anyone else has tried a baffle in one of these, and if so about how far up did you put it? Oh, and does Semroc make a good one, I noticed that they're only $1.60

thanks!

skybuster said:

Thanks for all the replies! Right now I'm building an Estes QCC explorer my friend gave me for Christmas, which is what brought this question back to mind. Since it's a BT-60, it takes many pieces of wadding, and I've been thinking about a baffle. With baffles, I've read that you should put them as far up as possible leaving room for the parachute and shock cord, I was wondering if anyone else has tried a baffle in one of these, and if so about how far up did you put it? Oh, and does Semroc make a good one, I noticed that they're only $1.60

thanks!

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I think where the 2 body tubes connect would be the best place...

[POW]Eagle159;284533 said:

I think where the 2 body tubes connect would be the best place...

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Thanks, I'll give it a shot!

cbrarick said:

Oh, come on....why make it when you can buy a lifetime supply cheaper then a few rolls of TP......

Dog Barf!

Go to home depot and get a bale of blown in cellulose insulation. It's already pre treated with fire retardant and it will break down fairly quickly. I've never been to a launch site where it wasn't allowed. It's also pre-made so you won't spend any time

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I agree completely...

Often at the indoor lumberyards, you can find bales of cellulose insulation that have been speared or torn by careless forklift operators which you can often buy for nearly nothing... I got a bale for about $2-3 one time that had a forklift spear in the corner...

As a landowner who provides a club launch field, I DEFINITELY prefer dog barf over regular Estes wadding... by the time it's shot out of the tube at altitude and drifts down as confetti, it's spread out over such a large area as to be unidentifiable... plus the smaller particle size means it drops down through the grass to the soil surface and plant debris laying on the surface, which is usually damp, meaning that it rots back into the soil very quickly.

I don't really mind Estes type sheet wadding, because after a launch, I can wander around the field the next day and pick up enough scattered balls of wadding to keep me supplied for quite a while... sometimes it's singed or burned a bit, but it can easily be reused... most of it is perfectly fine... I dump the partially burned stuff into the tube first and put "good" wadding on top of it... (when I don't use dog barf... small rockets are kinda hard to pack with dog barf).

I was just pointing out that if one is a glutton for punishment, one CAN make their own wadding...

Later! OL JR

troj said:

For larger Estes type rockets (Fat Boy, for example), go buy a pack of paper muffin cups from the grocery store. They work very well for those larger diameter tubes.

-Kevin

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Yes, and you can even get foil ones.

One other tip about Nomex heat shields. Micro is right; they will add cost if you install one each in many of your rockets. But just as I have all of my rockets share from the same pool of parachutes, I also have them share heat shields. What I do is make the shock cord detachable from the nose cone via a quick link (HPR and large MPR) or a suitably robust coastlock swivel (LPR and small MPR). I can thus slide the Nomex onto and off of the shock cord after simply detaching it from the base of the nose cone or payload section and throw it back in the box, so that it's ready for use in another rocket. I protect most of my fleet with just three or four heat shields. Sunward has very good prices on Nomex heat shields, and their shields have excellent quality.

MarkII said:

One other tip about Nomex heat shields. Micro is right; they will add cost if you install one each in many of your rockets. But just as I have all of my rockets share from the same pool of parachutes, I also have them share heat shields. What I do is make the shock cord detachable from the nose cone via a quick link (HPR and large MPR) or a suitably robust coastlock swivel (LPR and small MPR). I can thus slide the Nomex onto and off of the shock cord after simply detaching it from the base of the nose cone or payload section and throw it back in the box, so that it's ready for use in another rocket. I protect most of my fleet with just three or four heat shields. Sunward has very good prices on Nomex heat shields, and their shields have excellent quality.

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Instead of making the shock cord detachable, and having to use a HD snap swivel, why not simply add a small snap swivel to the corner of the heat shield, tied on with some nomex string through the buttonhole or eyelet?? That way you simply clip the heat shield to the cord before flight and stuff the thing in the tube with the laundry on top... Since the clip only has to keep the heat shield clipped to the shock cord on the way down, it can be as small as you can get that can still attach around the shock cord... it's not a load-bearing member...

Later! OL JR