Gray Primer VS White Primer

UrbanKnight said:

My primer often comes out a little "fuzzy", both looking and feeling, so I end up sanding it lightly. Any idea why that happens to me?

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Thoroughly wipe down the surface after sanding to remove every speck of dust. Then do it again, immediately before you spray on the primer. I use a microfiber cloth/towel from a pack that I bought at Family Dollar. I can make the pre-treated (see below) but bare, unpainted surfaces of body tubing glass-smooth doing this. I used to use tack cloths, but I didn't like the fact that they imparted a thin film of stickum onto the surface. Plus they dried out and became useless very quickly. On occasion I will take a paper towel, and put a few drops of water onto it, just enough to make it very slightly damp, and lightly run it over the rocket to pick up the dust. I apply spray primer in exactly the same way that I apply spray paint, in even strokes from one end to the other, at the correct distance through the entire stroke.

I should add that I also use primer to "prep" paper body tubes before I fill them. I give the raw tubes a quick coat of primer, let it dry for a day and then sand it off. The treatment hardens or toughens the surface so that after I fill the spirals and other defects, the tube doesn't get scuffed up when I sand it. I don't do this with the wood surfaces, though.

For sanding body tubes I am really fond of the line of sanding sponge pads from Norton. I use the medium ("100") and medium-fine ("150") pads, both of which are red, for sanding down filler, and I use the yellow very fine ("220") sponge pad for the final sanding of the bare surface and any light sanding of the primer coat. I don't wet-sand anything on paper tubes and I don't sand the top coats. (They don't need it.) I use regular paper-backed sandpaper for sanding wood fins, transitions and nose cones. I do wet-sand the sealer coats on nose cones and transitions, but I only dry-sand the sealer coats on fins.

Someone mentioned using steel wool that has been made specifically for fine surface finishing. I agree that it imparts a very smooth texture on painted surfaces --- if you ignore the tiny steel fibers that it leaves behind, embedded in the paint. Been there.

I tend to use gray as the norm. Mainly becuse I can see surface defects easier. White works well under lighter colors such as yellow or any color on the lighter side---sorta depends on the tone you want--- the basecoat will--as a rule--change the color coat a bit.

UrbanKnight said:

My primer often comes out a little "fuzzy", both looking and feeling, so I end up sanding it lightly. Any idea why that happens to me?

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Sounds like dry spray to me... maybe hold the can a little closer...

Good luck! OL JR

I only use Plastikote primer and it works great, but the filler primer only comes in grey. Before I hit the rocket with a glossy top coat, I hit the it with flat white to cover the grey. Mark II, I have used Aerogloss sanding sealer over the years with great results, but it does require multiple coats and sanding sessions. I have also tried Aerogloss balsa filler with good results, but once again multiple sanding sessions. Recently I have just used plain primer to fill the balsa and it too works great. The difference with the primer only method, I only sand 2-3 times vs multiple times with the sealer or fillers. Since I sand most of the primer off except the last coat, it does not add much weight. In the end it looks just as good with less work and when I hit the launch button, the rocket still flies the same. There are many ways to finish a rocket, you just have to do what works for you. Also I sometimes wonder why I even go through all this hard work when just one day of launching I come home with nicks or scratches in the paint. I keep telling myself one day I will just build a rocket, hit it with a coat or two of primer, sand and finish with a top coat and decals. Sure grain will be showing, but I bet it would still look pretty good. Here is one of the first builds I did with primer only.
https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=9815

THANK YOU SC! You have helped clear up a point regarding rocket finishes. I will state up front and center that my finishes are average to say the least. Some better than others. To all those that choose to have their models look like they should be the "poster child" versions, go for it. I for one like a nice finish but I do not think it's a must do issue to have the most impressive finish. But that's me. My rockets look great and they fly great. There's no law that says they have to look like a piece of fine finished furniture. Yours looks just fine to me.

SCIGS30 said:

I only use Plastikote primer and it works great, but the filler primer only comes in grey. Before I hit the rocket with a glossy top coat, I hit the it with flat white to cover the grey. Mark II, I have used Aerogloss sanding sealer over the years with great results, but it does require multiple coats and sanding sessions. I have also tried Aerogloss balsa filler with good results, but once again multiple sanding sessions. Recently I have just used plain primer to fill the balsa and it too works great. The difference with the primer only method, I only sand 2-3 times vs multiple times with the sealer or fillers. Since I sand most of the primer off except the last coat, it does not add much weight. In the end it looks just as good with less work and when I hit the launch button, the rocket still flies the same. There are many ways to finish a rocket, you just have to do what works for you. Also I sometimes wonder why I even go through all this hard work when just one day of launching I come home with nicks or scratches in the paint. I keep telling myself one day I will just build a rocket, hit it with a coat or two of primer, sand and finish with a top coat and decals. Sure grain will be showing, but I bet it would still look pretty good. Here is one of the first builds I did with primer only.
https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=9815

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You can skin fins and add strength and not have to deal with sanding

Papering fins, now that wouldn't be as challenging and frustrating as trying to fill balsa. If I really wanted an easy way to fill and stronger fins, I would more than likely use basswood. Here is a cool basic how to on Youtube of building and finishing a rocket. I don't know if this person posts her but his rockets look great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jhsqh7-Jjk

SCIGS30 said:

Mark II, I have used Aerogloss sanding sealer over the years with great results, but it does require multiple coats and sanding sessions. I have also tried Aerogloss balsa filler with good results, but once again multiple sanding sessions. Recently I have just used plain primer to fill the balsa and it too works great. The difference with the primer only method, I only sand 2-3 times vs multiple times with the sealer or fillers.

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Hmmm. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, then. I apply two (occasionally three) coats of balsa fillercoat and sand it after the last coat. Then I apply a couple of coats of the sanding sealer and sand that down after both are dry. Occasionally I need to add another coat of sealer, which is sanded down, So that totals two, and occasionally three, sandings total.

At first I tried using just balsa fillercoat all by itself, and I experienced the same thing that you did. I needed to fill and sand, fill and sand, fill and sand over and over again. I also tried using just the sanding sealer, but it didn't fill as well by itself and also didn't sand as smooth. Using both products, which is how they are meant to be used, I believe, gives me the best results, plus it is also the method that is the least amount of work.

Note that this is on fins only. I don't use butyrate dope on balsa nose cones or transitions.

I also like the fact that I can apply dope on fins in my workshop any time. I can only apply primer and spray paint during the warm months, in fair, dry weather and low wind conditions, during daylight hours. When I do have those conditions I am up to my ears with paint jobs that have accumulated over the years that I need to catch up on. This past summer I was painting rockets that I had built in 2007, and I still didn't get to all of them because the season always seems to be just too short.

SCIGS30 said:

Papering fins, now that wouldn't be as challenging and frustrating as trying to fill balsa. If I really wanted an easy way to fill and stronger fins, I would more than likely use basswood. Here is a cool basic how to on Youtube of building and finishing a rocket. I don't know if this person posts her but his rockets look great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jhsqh7-Jjk

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I had instant success filling basswood with a latex wood filler mixed with water and painted on (as per a how-to I found on the internet, except it recommended carpenter's wood filler). Smooth as glass. It also makes balsa smooth enough to apply fin decals, but you can still see the grain.

MarkII said:

Hmmm. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, then. I apply two (occasionally three) coats of balsa fillercoat and sand it after the last coat. Then I apply a couple of coats of the sanding sealer and sand that down after both are dry. Occasionally I need to add another coat of sealer, which is sanded down, So that totals two, and occasionally three, sandings total.

At first I tried using just balsa fillercoat all by itself, and I experienced the same thing that you did. I needed to fill and sand, fill and sand, fill and sand over and over again. I also tried using just the sanding sealer, but it didn't fill as well by itself and also didn't sand as smooth. Using both products, which is how they are meant to be used, I believe, gives me the best results, plus it is also the method that is the least amount of work.

Note that this is on fins only. I don't use butyrate dope on balsa nose cones or transitions.

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I have to use my dope products outside, but living in S.Cal its not a problem. Trust me I like the Aerogloss products, you can search all my builds here and see that is what I have used the most with great results. I have pretty much stayed away from Balsa Fillercoat and just use Sealer with good results. On my vintage builds I am still using balsa sealer, Apply 2 coats, sand and apply one or two more coats and sand. On my new Estes rockets I am just shooting the primer and the filling process goes faster and the end results are the same.

You must be spraying on more of it that I do.

Scigs30, after reading your Vector Force thread some time ago, I've employed your technique on a couple of kits that had a bit harder balsa. It worked very well.

MarkII's filler/sealer method had pretty much been my standard technique for everything else.

I've settled on a compromise that works for me. I zap the balsa with Deft spray sanding sealer lacquer. Three coats, sand, two more, sand, then gray primer. See what glaring imperfections are left, deal with them, sand. If I'm pretty sure things will be fine on the next primer (if I have doubts, I use gray again), I'll hit it with white then move on to color.

Just papered my first fins. The only reason I did it was because the balsa was very soft. The unfortunate part was that they have a lot of angles. If they were simpler, I might like that technique a little better. I don't know how they're going to turn out, but it seems like a lot of work and I'm not very happy with the results, thus far. For stronger fins, I think I'll return to the filler/sealer. I'm not going to try papering anymore fins unless they're dirt simple.

I've found a brand of primer(s) that I like alot: Sherwin-Williams "Spruce" brand. I believe they're oil-based as there is no mention of acrylic on the labels. They're seriously opaque, heavy and dense. I've used most brands and types of paint (except lacquer) over them and had no problems. Knock-on-wood.

I'm a big fan of papering fins ,
I do it the easy way , paper some balsa sheet stock and cut fins from it
I use the kit fins or template to outline the papered stock.
sometimes I'll paper the kit diecut(or laser cut) sheet and cut them from that

I'll paper several sheets at a time and that keeps me supplied for a lot of builds
I don't worry about wrapping the edges and getting all fancy , I usually just hit the edges with Cya and sand smooth, it also helps lock the edges of the paper down.

all the papered balsa scraps get used for details as well.
comes in real handy on the TLP kits.

I have used basswood in the past , but on 2 occasions have had the grain split
so I'm not the biggest fan of basswood, papered balsa is still lighter,plenty strong and eliminates filling.

I imagine you can't airfoil or round fins if you papered the blank stock. Any trouble gluing them that way?

I still round and airfoil them as normal .. the paper sands/ blends in fine with airfoils and rounding. It leaves an exposed area of balsa that I will usually soak with thin cya.
I just treat the fins as if I would a non-papered fin

as long as the main fin area is papered , the exposed balsa sealed, It eliminates the fill-sand-fill-sand regime and as the bonus provides that incredible increase in strength.

shaping the fins prior to papering looks great but I don't really see the added work paying off compared to the time and effort, I get the same results in the end in a fraction of the time.
I'm lazy, If I can get the same result an easier way ...I'm there ...lol
I have not had any issues so far with adhesion to the tube, by the time fillets are added and everything is finished , I have broke off fins and they typically peel away the tube with it.. so the glue penetration is still there.

my 29mm fatboy is simple papered fins all wood glue construction, and I have sent it up on G80 and so far no cracks or fin damage, lots of flights on that puppy

I recently sprayed white Dupli-color over white Dupli-color primer and I somewhat regret the choice. Dupli-color has a really nice flow to it, but the other side of that coin is that it goes on thin and it's very unforgiving if you push it just a tiny bit too much; it will run easily & quickly. Spraying it over white primer doesn't allow you to judge the amount you are laying down very easily. So, I tended to spray too light, which didn't give the white paint the nice gloss that I wanted and left a grainy texture. So i had to wait 24-hours and rub it down with either 600-grit wet/dry or buff it down with a cloth before re-applying a new coat.

If you are lucky enough to have a nice, well-lighted area in which to paint you can judge the coverage by the gloss, but spraying white on white - while eventually successful - had a steep (and with Dupli-color, expensive) learning curve, and it wound up taking more paint (and more trips to the auto parts store) than it otherwise should have.

Also, if you like work to a very fine primer finish by sanding between multiple coats, as I do, I would advice the less expensive automotive primer, as most of it is going to wind up as dust on the garage floor anyway. That's what i did, and then switched to Dupli primer for the just-before-base-color coat, just to insure maximum chemical adhesion and compatibility.

I think that is why there is a direction to re-coat within a certain period of time, or wait 24-hours. One is to re-apply while there is still chemical bonding, or wait until it is completely dry, sand with a fine paper for mechanical bonding for the new coat.

Gary Byrum said:

...
ps....grey (better understood as Grey....a biographical name) is not a color. GRAY is a color. Grey is a variant.

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Little known fact, the original name of the movie was 50 Shades of Primer...

Haha! Keeps me glued to the TV ferrrrr-surrrrrre.

Curtis Enlow said:

I recently sprayed white Dupli-color over white Dupli-color primer and I somewhat regret the choice. Dupli-color has a really nice flow to it, but the other side of that coin is that it goes on thin and it's very unforgiving if you push it just a tiny bit too much; it will run easily & quickly. Spraying it over white primer doesn't allow you to judge the amount you are laying down very easily. So, I tended to spray too light, which didn't give the white paint the nice gloss that I wanted and left a grainy texture. So i had to wait 24-hours and rub it down with either 600-grit wet/dry or buff it down with a cloth before re-applying a new coat.

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Well lighted area is your friend. I use the reflection and shine off the tube/fins/thing to judge the laydown when using gloss