Water-based acrylics: looking for a quickstart for rocketry
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Stymye
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from the bottle 40-60 psi with a big needle
you can thin it with airbrush medium or pledge/future and get it down to 25-35 psi or more.and go to a smaller range needle.A tiny bit of water can help also
if you thin it heavy make sure the "thinner" has some form of acrylic in it
createx breaks down really bad really quick with any other type of thinner.
it might spray but just leave a fragile skin that peels off real easy.
I also build scale models and the only thing I use the createx for is spraying car model bodys.
you can thin it with airbrush medium or pledge/future and get it down to 25-35 psi or more.and go to a smaller range needle.A tiny bit of water can help also
if you thin it heavy make sure the "thinner" has some form of acrylic in it
createx breaks down really bad really quick with any other type of thinner.
it might spray but just leave a fragile skin that peels off real easy.
I also build scale models and the only thing I use the createx for is spraying car model bodys.
I was doing all my spraying (with CO2 from a 5 or 20 lb tank, got one of each) with the Paasche H set using the H5 needle, based on recommendations on the bottles of Createx and other places. Was at 42-45 lbs.
This weekend I gave it a whirl with the H3 needle and about 32 lbs. Works great, uses less gas. Still gives a decent sized spray area. For big surfaces (say, BT60 and larger tubes) I would use the H5 set (bigger spray area) but I think I'm good with the H3 for smaller surfaces. Fewer trips to the gas supply place.
Marc
This weekend I gave it a whirl with the H3 needle and about 32 lbs. Works great, uses less gas. Still gives a decent sized spray area. For big surfaces (say, BT60 and larger tubes) I would use the H5 set (bigger spray area) but I think I'm good with the H3 for smaller surfaces. Fewer trips to the gas supply place.
Marc
luke strawwalker
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The problem with compressed air (assuming you mean using a refillable air tank topped up at a service station or something like that) is that you're only going to get about 120 PSI in the tank AT MOST... SO unless you have a LARGE tank, or numerous smaller ones, you're going to be refilling them CONSTANTLY... A CO2 cylinder (welding gas cylinder) can be a couple THOUSAND PSI in there and so that's a LOT of gas volume crammed into a small cylinder, which is why they last a pretty long time when welding or using the gas... it takes a LONG time for the pressure in such a high-pressure cylinder to drop off to 20-40 PSI like typically used for airbrushing and stuff starting off that high, and being in a larger cylinder. A small air tank (or even a large one) at 120 PSI or so will drop to 30 PSI in a matter of minutes under heavy air demand... simply because it doesn't have as much gas crammed into it and starting out at a lower pressure.
I've got a 20-30 gallon or so propane fuel tank off a tractor mounted on an old golf cart axle and tongue welded to it that I pull behind my golf cart or load in the back of the pickup for carrying large amounts of air to remote work areas around the farm well away from the shop... I will hook it up to the compressor and fill it up to about 130 pounds of air, run to the other end of the farm, and I can take TWO wheels (ten lugs nuts) off a regular car or truck tire using a half-inch impact wrench before I'm "out of air"-- IOW down to about 25-30 pounds of air, which is barely even enough to spin the wrench, let alone do any work... usually that's enough to do what I'm trying to do, but sometimes I have to make multiple trips to finish a job, returning to the shop and hooking the tank back up to the air line to refill it, and then returning to the jobsite to do more work... PITA but cheaper than buying a gas-powered portable compressor for no more than I use it...
You MIGHT squeak by with such a setup, but I think that you'd get VERY tired of running to service stations to refill your portable tanks very quickly...
Later! OL JR
A small air tank (or even a large one) at 120 PSI or so will drop to 30 PSI in a matter of minutes under heavy air demand... simply because it doesn't have as much gas crammed into it and starting out at a lower pressure.
Later! OL JR
Really, that quick? I realized that CO2 tanks were much higher pressure than an air tank but my main worry was that there would be other problems using air. I guess it won't matter if I'd have to be refilling it so often.
I'll see how the compressor works and go from there.
Mike
Zetoyoc
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I have heard of people using large spare tires for the air source. The volume an airbrush uses is, i'm sure, much less than an air wrench but it will still empty a lot faster than a tank from the welding supply or beer store that is compressed to liquid to a constant (depending on temp ) 800psi untill there is no more liquid to boil off and then you just use up the remaining 800.
Either method will work. tank, compressor, or spare tire. different pros and cons for each i guess.
-Z
Either method will work. tank, compressor, or spare tire. different pros and cons for each i guess.
-Z
luke strawwalker
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Yeah, I've heard of that too... might have overstated the case, but he said he had "lots of projects in mind" and I figured that equated to 'lotsa use'. Heck I've used a trailer tire to refill a tractor tire before... rear tractor tires typically run at about 10-15 PSI (on our small tractor anyway) and the trailer tires are at 36 PSI. I didn't have an air compressor and didn't have time to run to town to get air, and I'd already put all the air in the air tank into the tractor tire and it was still at only about 8 PSI... SO, I took the "empty" (8 PSI) air tank over to the trailer tires, pressed the air chuck against the stem, letting the tire bleed air down into the air tank until the pressure equalized (at about 20 PSI) and then moved to the rear trailer axle tire and repeated this operation again (dropping it from 36 PSI to about 28-30 PSI, raising the pressure in the tank up to about 28-30 PSI in the process) then took the 30 PSI in the tank and put it in the tractor tire, raising it from about 8 PSI to a little over 10 PSI (because of the much larger volume of the tractor tire). This was enough to complete the job, then later went to lunch in town and stopped at the gas station, aired all the trailer tires back up to 36 PSI and the air tank to 120 PSI, and topped up the tractor tire to 15 PSI where it should be... KInd of a roundabout way to do it but it worked!
You can have a huge volume with little pressure change, or a huge pressure change with a smaller volume, and still have a pretty large air supply... its when you have a small volume with a small pressure change you get massive numbers of fill-ups...
Later! OL JR
Stymye
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Yeah, I've heard of that too... might have overstated the case, but he said he had "lots of projects in mind" and I figured that equated to 'lotsa use'. Heck I've used a trailer tire to refill a tractor tire before... rear tractor tires typically run at about 10-15 PSI (on our small tractor anyway) and the trailer tires are at 36 PSI. I didn't have an air compressor and didn't have time to run to town to get air, and I'd already put all the air in the air tank into the tractor tire and it was still at only about 8 PSI... SO, I took the "empty" (8 PSI) air tank over to the trailer tires, pressed the air chuck against the stem, letting the tire bleed air down into the air tank until the pressure equalized (at about 20 PSI) and then moved to the rear trailer axle tire and repeated this operation again (dropping it from 36 PSI to about 28-30 PSI, raising the pressure in the tank up to about 28-30 PSI in the process) then took the 30 PSI in the tank and put it in the tractor tire, raising it from about 8 PSI to a little over 10 PSI (because of the much larger volume of the tractor tire). This was enough to complete the job, then later went to lunch in town and stopped at the gas station, aired all the trailer tires back up to 36 PSI and the air tank to 120 PSI, and topped up the tractor tire to 15 PSI where it should be... KInd of a roundabout way to do it but it worked!
You can have a huge volume with little pressure change, or a huge pressure change with a smaller volume, and still have a pretty large air supply... its when you have a small volume with a small pressure change you get massive numbers of fill-ups...
Later! OL JR
do have a harbor freight or tractor supply nearby? , you could get a compressor that runs off the tractor battery.They are inexpensive.
luke strawwalker
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Yeah, the old man has one in his van, but I wasn't with him in the van that day...
For tractor tires those goofy lil' cig-lighter plug in compressors are practically worthless... I've had to wait a half hour to get a FRONT tractor tire aired up enough to finish a job before with one of those dinky compressors, and a REAR tire would take all day... they can make decent pressure but produce virtually NO VOLUME... IE big tires end up taking all day...
I sometimes use the "fix a flat" but that stuff has gotten MONDO expensive!!! Used to get it for $1 a can at W/M and TSC now the cheapest are like $4, if you can find it, and oftentimes they only have the $6-8 stuff in stock... plus it's not as good at sealing leaks as it used to be...
later! OL JR
For tractor tires those goofy lil' cig-lighter plug in compressors are practically worthless... I've had to wait a half hour to get a FRONT tractor tire aired up enough to finish a job before with one of those dinky compressors, and a REAR tire would take all day... they can make decent pressure but produce virtually NO VOLUME... IE big tires end up taking all day...
later! OL JR
I use to have one of those that I bought primarily to pump up the air tank for the retractable landing gear on a scale RC airplane. It's great at filling a tank the size of a 20oz soda bottle, or a bicycle tire. For a car tire you might as well go catch a movie while it fills.
I tried out my good(?) compressor on some scrap materials using both the Createx and Tamiya. I'm getting some slight spattering of paint which I'm not sure if it's due to incorrect pressure, incorrect thinning, etc. What I really wish is that I knew what the actual pressure was so I could for sure take that out of the equation. Having a gauge that goes up to 160psi (the lowest I could find at HFT), and being at the bottom of the scale means I just don't know if it's accurate. If it is reading correctly it's only maxing out at 22psi using the H3 tip.
Mike
Mike
luke strawwalker
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Mike
If you have a Tractor Supply Company (TSC) nearby or any farm tractor equipment dealerships, you can check and see if they have any 0-60 PSI range bourdon tube guages... They SHOULD have them at Rural King or Big R as well...
I too have gotten very aggravated with the fact that most of the guages they want to produce are either 0-100 PSI range or increasingly 0-200 PSI range... which as you said is practically worthless for trying to measure spraying pressures which typically fall well below 60 PSI... heck on a 200 PSI guage that would put ALL the measurements WAY down on the lowest 1/3 of the range!
If you can't find them there, check online at Wylie Spray Centers website, or at TeeJet's website or any other agricultural spraying website. Such a guage should only run in the $5-10 range... I've occassionally seen them at the indoor lumberyard stores, in the water well supplies... a bourdon tube guage doesn't particularly care what fluid (air or water) you're putting through it (ammonia and some ag chemicals like Roundup can be a little harder on guages but typically they're all pretty much el-cheapo bourdon tube guages... sometimes filled with glycerin to prevent "needle twitch" on positive displacement (piston) type pump sprayer systems running incompressible fluid (water based crop sprays). Most all ag spraying is done at 30-50 PSI, so it only makes sense to have a 0-60 PSI guage...
Later! OL JR
Hi folks,
I made a BT50 downscale of the Blue Bird Zero. Nothing special about the construction. I smoothed it with a couple coats of Rustoleum Auto Filler Primer (sanding after each of the two coats), then went straight to Createx Wicked Colors Opaque White. The white was thinned about 10% with the wicked reducer and I added a couple drops of Hot Rod Sparkle and Aluminum Base (from the Auto-Air line of acrylics).
It went on nicely though the sparkle / metallic wasn't very visible. The Opaque white really is opaque!
I taped it off and then applied several coats of Wicked Colors fluorescent blue. I really don't like this fluorescent blue... it's very transparenty. Even after 4 coats it looked a bit blotchy.
It was very matte, so I decided to try something I read about: I mixed up some of the hot rod sparkle, and thinned it with maybe 30% Future (pledge with future shine). Sprayed the whole rocket with it. This took the fluorescent blue from matte to semi gloss, and added a bit more gloss to the white. The sparkle was pretty evident, especially in good light.
Then I added the decals from Exelsior:
I really like coating the decals with clear lacquer... makes them much easier to work with. But this model was not planned for a Lacquer overcoat so I just applied them without any special coating. Much harder to apply, and I got the dreaded curl-under on one side:
The whole thing got two coats of Future plus Simple green (4:1)
And eventually looked quite nice:
I made a BT50 downscale of the Blue Bird Zero. Nothing special about the construction. I smoothed it with a couple coats of Rustoleum Auto Filler Primer (sanding after each of the two coats), then went straight to Createx Wicked Colors Opaque White. The white was thinned about 10% with the wicked reducer and I added a couple drops of Hot Rod Sparkle and Aluminum Base (from the Auto-Air line of acrylics).
It went on nicely though the sparkle / metallic wasn't very visible. The Opaque white really is opaque!
I taped it off and then applied several coats of Wicked Colors fluorescent blue. I really don't like this fluorescent blue... it's very transparenty. Even after 4 coats it looked a bit blotchy.
It was very matte, so I decided to try something I read about: I mixed up some of the hot rod sparkle, and thinned it with maybe 30% Future (pledge with future shine). Sprayed the whole rocket with it. This took the fluorescent blue from matte to semi gloss, and added a bit more gloss to the white. The sparkle was pretty evident, especially in good light.
Then I added the decals from Exelsior:
I really like coating the decals with clear lacquer... makes them much easier to work with. But this model was not planned for a Lacquer overcoat so I just applied them without any special coating. Much harder to apply, and I got the dreaded curl-under on one side:
The whole thing got two coats of Future plus Simple green (4:1)
And eventually looked quite nice:
I've been meaning to post a "18 months of acrylic painting: my current practices" thread. Just never got around to it. Key things would be get the Harbor Freight small 4 oz cup spray detail gun (~$10) and their internal mix dual action airbrush ($20). These are my goto tools. The spray gun for primer and larger model "painting the whole bird" coats, and the airbrush for smaller areas or BT50 rockets and smaller. I don't thin the paint anymore (except in rare exceptions)... the tools mentioned above do a fine job of atomizing the paint without it.
Glad you found the clear coating thread. I really like the Valspar lacquer. I also have pretty good results with just future and haven't found delicate surface tape to pull it off. Yet.
Try the MM stuff and let us know how it goes!
Glad you found the clear coating thread. I really like the Valspar lacquer. I also have pretty good results with just future and haven't found delicate surface tape to pull it off. Yet.
Try the MM stuff and let us know how it goes!
artao
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I did not read this entire thread, but I DID search for "Liquitex Grumbacher Lukas" and found no results.
I find this curious, that no one has suggested any of these 3 brands of water-based acrylic paints, as they are standard VERY high-quality artists paints available at pretty much ANY craft/art supply store .. except maybe the Lukas, as that is a higher quality paint still.
I know for a fact that many many artists use these brands thru an airbrush, so there's no concern there. I have no personal experience with airbrushing, but am seriously considering picking up an airbrush setup, and would probably go with Liquitex or Grumbacher acrylics if I did so. I DO have experience with these acrylic paints, and they are excellent!! Currently I use rattlecans, but I tire of paint incompatibilities and other nasties involved with such.
In fact, I've never seen these brands mentioned ANYWHERE in relation to model painting. I'm wondering why. Everyone seems to be using model-making-specific airbrush paints. Is there any specific reason that Liquitex, Grumbacher, or Lukas (or Holbein even, cheaper but lower pigmentation) are not used in model-making? Are model makers simply unaware of these brands, or are they unsuitable to the task?
I find this curious, that no one has suggested any of these 3 brands of water-based acrylic paints, as they are standard VERY high-quality artists paints available at pretty much ANY craft/art supply store .. except maybe the Lukas, as that is a higher quality paint still.
I know for a fact that many many artists use these brands thru an airbrush, so there's no concern there. I have no personal experience with airbrushing, but am seriously considering picking up an airbrush setup, and would probably go with Liquitex or Grumbacher acrylics if I did so. I DO have experience with these acrylic paints, and they are excellent!! Currently I use rattlecans, but I tire of paint incompatibilities and other nasties involved with such.
In fact, I've never seen these brands mentioned ANYWHERE in relation to model painting. I'm wondering why. Everyone seems to be using model-making-specific airbrush paints. Is there any specific reason that Liquitex, Grumbacher, or Lukas (or Holbein even, cheaper but lower pigmentation) are not used in model-making? Are model makers simply unaware of these brands, or are they unsuitable to the task?
Peter Olivola
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You could add Golden to the list as well. One of the major issues with artist acrylics is their varying opacity. It's important to select colors with maximum opacity (most brands have charts for all the colors and Golden has it on the bottle.) I wasted a lot of time and effort until I discovered the opacity index information.
When I build scale models, I almost always build aircraft. So when I need a certain color, the hobby paints have the correct color that I need for that particular model I am building. For rocketry, exact color matches are less critical unless building a military rocket so your choices in paint manufacturers can be expanded to paints that are not necessarily hobby paints. When I paint my rockets I simply use the paints I have on hand already.
kathmorgan12
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I have been playing around with my first airbrush and acrylic paint so can not compare brands other than the Createx I have tried. So far i like it. I have painted with the pearlized and opaque. it seems to stick well enough but i havent tried to mask it yet. waiting a day or so before i do that. I have some wicked color in the mail that may not need the heat treatment.
