Water-based acrylics: looking for a quickstart for rocketry

bradycros said:

Two different sized upscales, I like that.

The BT-5 Screamer uses a BNC-5AX nose cone with a 4:1 ratio and semroc doesen't make a BNC-20AX or BNC-50AX.

Will you use the BNC-20G4 and the BNC-50G4 as replacements as they have a 4:1 ratio and are ogives?

Click to expand...

I've opened a thread over in LPR about Screamers. I'm looking forward to continuing the conversation after work... gotta run for now. To keep this thread on target, let's take the Screamer chat over to the new thread.

gpoehlein said:

I just picked up a few bottles of the Anita's Glossy acrylic paints - I'll be trying them out to compare to Tamiya's gloss acrylics on a Viking I just slapped together. I'll be brush painting this one, and I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

Click to expand...

Well, the first test turned out for SH*T! The Anita's Glossy is thick and gummy. It doesn't self level (brush marks very evident) and it want to ball up as you brush it. I'd sand the first coat after it dries and try again, maybe thinning it down some and see if that makes a difference.

I tried numerous brands of the cheapo acrylic craft paints from Michaels in my airbrush and didn't like the results. I think the pigment is too coarse in those cheaper paints.

I've used Createx with moderate luck. It's nice in that it's already thinned but it never seemed to stick too well to body tubes. I'd set it with a hairdryer but really had to wait about a day before I could trust using it with tape.

If you look at some of the airbrush sites for the pros they hate Createx.

I've had the best results with Golden airbrush paints. They're a little more expensive but have really fine pigment and seem to bond well to cardboard tubes.

I haven't had enough time to experiment with the many other acrylics available from Liquetex. Michaels carries a very broad line of those paints and they're price right. The problem is that I've been unable to find the acryclic airbrush medium that Liquetex sells that allows you to think their standard acrylics for airbrushing.

I think we're all looking for a good acrylic primer.

I have been playing around with my first airbrush and acrylic paint so can not compare brands other than the Createx I have tried. So far i like it. I have painted with the pearlized and opaque. it seems to stick well enough but i havent tried to mask it yet. waiting a day or so before i do that. I have some wicked color in the mail that may not need the heat treatment. Also I read about using gesso for a primer and have so far sprayed it successfully on one rocket but have not tried to overcoat yet. Ill keep posted.

-Z

This might help: https://www.liquitex.com/airbrushmedium/

Pat_B said:

I tried numerous brands of the cheapo acrylic craft paints from Michaels in my airbrush and didn't like the results. I think the pigment is too coarse in those cheaper paints.

I've used Createx with moderate luck. It's nice in that it's already thinned but it never seemed to stick to well to body tubes. I'd set it with a hairdryer but really had to wait about a day before I could trust using it with tape.

If you look at some of the airbrush sites for the pros they hate Createx.

I've had the best results with Golden airbrush paints. They're a little more expensive but have really fine pigment and seem to bond well to cardboard tubes.

I haven't had enough time to experiment with the many other acrylics available from Liquetex. Michaels carries a very broad line of those paints and they're price right. The problem is that I've been unable to find the acryclic airbrush medium that Liquetex sells that allows you to think their standard acrylics for airbrushing.

I think we're all looking for a good acrylic primer.

Click to expand...

Thanks Peter. I've been to their site but was having problems finding that product actually in a store. Michaels carries a lot of Liquetex products except for airbrush medium. I'll eventually have to order some online.

Try a more serious art supply store like Dick Blick or Sam Flax. Michaels is more about crafts than art. Would you expect to find good rocket supplies in a primarily choo-choo hobby shop?

Pat_B said:

Thanks Peter. I've been to their site but was having problems finding that product actually in a store. Michaels carries a lot of Liquetex products except for airbrush medium. I'll eventually have to order some online.

Click to expand...

hey guys , be careful trying to mask raw createx , it's not really designed for that and requires a clear intercoat first.

also on the hairdrying part , also be carefull , it's not necessary to be hot air in fact that can cause problems with it skinning over before curing.(than peeling like a banana from masking)
all it requires is a clean dry airflow to cure it .or none at all if you rather wait longer..

with all the new acrylics out there createx is not really the best thing anymore.
it forms a skin and is not sandable.it also requires a large needle and higher psi's because it does not like thinning much at all.. thin it too much and you can have all sorts of problems... I have tried everything with mixed results to this day. it just does not like to be thinned much at all.

better options from createx are auto air and wicked colors,
Wicked colors is awesome , it can be thinned to heck without loss of vibrancy to make it more sprayable and does not need hairdrying.

other good brand acrylics are tamiya, vallejo,model master acryl,, and a plethora of other modeling paints.

createx will work but it's a lesson in thinning , spraying and curing with every color change.

all my createx paints are getting old and thick ,I'm having to thin them a lot and it's becoming frustrating to use them anymore .
I'm moving on to some of the other acrylics that are much better for models these days.

they are a bit more costly but much more foolproof.

Andy-

With the Model Master Acryl paints... I like that they have them at Hobby Lobby, but they come in these tiny 1/2 fl oz containers and I haven't found them in larger bulk. Is a half ounce enough to do even a small rocket?

This is the voice of ignorance talking... I bought some Createx this weekend but haven't started spraying anything.

Where do you usually get the acrylic paints you are using now?

Marc

Marc_G said:

Andy-

With the Model Master Acryl paints... I like that they have them at Hobby Lobby, but they come in these tiny 1/2 fl oz containers and I haven't found them in larger bulk. Is a half ounce enough to do even a small rocket?

This is the voice of ignorance talking... I bought some Createx this weekend but haven't started spraying anything.

Where do you usually get the acrylic paints you are using now?

Marc

Click to expand...

I like places like coast airbrush online,TCP global,,,ect they have from createx to HOK... It's a slowly over time money investment for me to build up a good selection but the airbrush paints are so intense in color that a little goes a long way.
as far as the hobby paints like acryl , they can do a couple moderate model size rockets(they go a surprisingly long way) but at the cost for a 1/2oz bottle it's much more cost effective to get the 2oz-4oz AB paints.
sometimes you can find good deals on paint sets with ebay.

I picked up 12 bottles of random auto air colors from ebay, didn't have a choice of color but they ended up $1.00 a piece and I can mix colors if need be.

I still use spray cans for primer , base coats and often clears


forgot to mention , whatever you get make>sure< to use the correct thinner.. there are so many types of acrylic now that many of the thinners are not interchangeable,,, some even include lacquer. some use an acrylic medium with retarder , some use an alcohol/acetone mix.. .. stay away from anything containing ammonia(windex...ect) ,, it will eat the chrome inside your airbrush.no company puts ammonia in their thinners

I just use the brand thinner that the company sells for that paint... stay away from the old school home remedy's... they no longer apply much anymore.

So I found a local place that has the Auto-Air acrylics from Createx and bought some today. But I've got a question and am a bit embarrassed:

It says to reduce with the reducer 3:1. Does that mean three parts paint, one part reducer, or vice versa? I've read the application guide but still have the question! :blush:

I bought some reducer so I'm good to go for some tests, once I figure this out!

Bit of an update. Apparently thinning is optional with these. They MAY be thinned but if the airbrush or whatever can pass the paint, they supposedly work unthinned.

I only had a tiny little bit of time, and I haven't yet invested in a proper spray brush... I've got Preval aerosol units and a cheap Testors Amazing Air set I got at HL with a 50% (!) coupon.

I took some scrap body tube material (it was crushed BT-80, I think, used as a spool for Kevlar I got from maybe Semroc or BRS?). I cut two strips of it and did a traditional scuff-sand with I think 220 grit sanding sponge.

Taped them up against a cardboard backing and first sprayed the Createx Auto-Air (CAA from now on) Sealer on one, using the amazingly crappy Testors sprayer. Didn't have a proper small Testors bottle to put the material in so I just poured a little bit into a tiny cup and sucked it out.

Also did another strip with the Testors Acrylic (TA) Orange that came with the sprayer set.

Did "one and a half coats" of each. Basically, sprayed a coat, let it dry just a couple minutes, and sprayed another coat. Not great technique but this was a quick test and I was in a hurry.

30 mins later, the TA Orange actually looks fairly good all things considered. Yeah, it's a bit blotchy, with some orange peel effect, but it was already dried to a bit of a gloss. Had a plasticy feel. One real coat on unprimed body tube... not bad!

The CAA sealer as expected was flat with no gloss, and still felt "wetter" than the TA strip.

I didn't blow-dry either strip.

About the Testors sprayer: see this thread, where I asked about it. Basically, it got panned. But it cost me like ~$13 with coupon and lets me do some material tests before I invest in decent equipment. I had a lot of trouble attaching the hose connector to the aerosol can... it doesn't go on straight/tight and tended to leak. IT is very cheap, but I was able to get it to "work."

I'll see how they seem tomorrow, and do some further tests with additional material and the other colors and such I got tonight.

Marc

So, first thing in the morning I checked on the test strips. I was quite pleased.

Keep in mind, they each received just one coat really, with a crappy lowest-end sprayer, by a guy who doesn't know what he's doing.

The TA orange had definite orange peel, as you'll see in the following photos. But, it's just the first coat, on unsealed surface.

The CAA sealer coat dried nice and smooth, to the extent that I sprayed it on evenly. You'll see some blotchiness but if feels pretty smooth.





So this evening I decided to do some more tests. I'll not get into the details

On the TA orange, I would put another coat or two. Long story short, I did two coats maybe 10 mins apart, and initially at least it's looking pretty good. Final result tomorrow, but I think there will be some orange peel but overall not bad.

On the CAA sealer strip, I decided to put some CAA Pearlized White. This material is much thicker than the sealer I used yesterday, so I thinned it about 20% (4 parts paint, 1 part 4011 reducer). This was still to thick for the Testors sprayer I've got. So I thinned it again by about 50% (so, now maybe I'm at 40% paint, 60% reducer). I sprayed this, no problem, onto the sealed strip. It beaded up a bit; I think I over-thinned. And I think applied too wet. Oops.

I made another strip, unsealed (but scuff sanded like the others), and put on some plain CAA white. I thinned this a bit, and sprayed it on. It did appear a bit blotchy; I think it was over-thinned.

Clearly, consistency in thinning matters and I will need to learn it.

So, about 45 minutes after spraying, I checked the strips.

The orange one (two coats of premixed TA Orange) looks quite good! I'd be satisfied with this as a finish for a rocket, as long as I would be clearcoating it later. It's not "great" but it's OK. After it's all the way dry, tomorrow, I'll get pictures. I masked before spraying tonight so we should get a "one coat / three coat" comparison chip out of it.

The Pearl While looks surprisingly good over the sealer, still a bit blotch but even over-thinned you can see the pearly finish. Would need a few more coats, or maybe 1 more thicker coat, but shows promise.

The plain white (single coat with no sealer) looks blotchy; clearly I still have work to do there.

Marc

OK, third post tonight but I'm on a roll.

I think I'm liking this acrylic thing and I'm willing to invest a little bit. I've got a 5 lb CO2 cylinder; I'll get 'er filled up. It was used for maintaining CO2 in my big planted fish tank (which has been empty since I moved...). I'll recruit it to my cause.

Next up comes a brush. Specific to the needs of water based acrylics, and influenced if need be by the use of CO2, any recommendations on what I should get? These are available at Hobby Lobby:







I imagine the Paasche starter set, at $25.99 before coupon, is probably very low end and I'm willing to go up a notch or two to get something decent.

Or should I source one elsewhere? (Recommendations?) I stopped by one of the Micheal's near me and they had basically crap. Totally disorganized airbrush section mostly out of stock.

I also need some advice about what to do to adapt whatever brush feeder line to the CO2 regulator.

Thanks!

Marc

I have the Badger 155 Anthem dual action air brush and have had good luck with it. I believe most folks here will recommend the Paache single action. I do wish I had known about using a CO2 cylinder, I have a Craftsman compressor it works great but it is loud, the silence would be nice.

I hope this helps, good luck.

I wonder does the internal mix on the dual action model help significantly with achieving uniform aerosolization of the water based paints which I see might be a little more power challenging than the lacquers.

On the other hand is there a benefit in this application for an external mix? Im willing to spend for the right tool and want to make sure I get the right one for these acrylics.

Thanks.

The Paasche H single action starter set (the one in the box on the right in the photo). Be sure to get a No. 5 spray tip. It'll last your lifetime and more. Easy to get parts for. Badger and the other reputable manufacturers also make nice single action, air-mixed brushes, if I'm not mistaken.

Paasche, Badger, Thayer/Chandler, Iwata (pricey, but incredibly smooth) etc. are quality tools. You don't need a double action at this point unless you're doing complex fades and such.

Stay away from the no-names. The plastic Paasche reminds me of the Testors brush and would make me nervous.

Also, if you see a "How to Airbrush" book—pick it up. It helps and will answer some questions you didn't know you had.

Marc_G said:

I wonder does the internal mix on the dual action model help significantly with achieving uniform aerosolization of the water based paints which I see might be a little more power challenging than the lacquers.

On the other hand is there a benefit in this application for an external mix? Im willing to spend for the right tool and want to make sure I get the right one for these acrylics.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Internal mix, double action brushes are a lot more finicky. They must be kept very clean to spray evenly and my experience has been that unless you have the right tip for the paint—they don't like even mildly viscous paint. I have four of them (2 Paasches, Thayer/Chandler, Wold) and wouldn't consider using acrylic or enamel in them. Then again, they're all for illustration. I'm sure there are double actions for heavier paint. But, like mentioned, cleaning them is critical and a bit more involved. A single for rockets is all that's really needed.

Ok, the starter single action it is! Plus the right tip! Any thought on what I will need to hook this up to my regulator? It has standard fittings as well as a slip on nipple for lower pressure work... my last use involved low flow and a needle valve!

Marc_G said:

Ok, the starter single action it is! Plus the right tip! Any thought on what I will need to hook this up to my regulator? It has standard fittings as well as a slip on nipple for lower pressure work... my last use involved low flow and a needle valve!

Click to expand...

The kit will come with a hose that has a screw-on fitting&#8212;I forget what size it is. A quarter inch perhaps? You'll have to take it from there...

These things like to spray acrylics at about 40 to 50 pounds of pressure. Adjust the screw on tip to get the pattern/mist/volume that you prefer. The key to getting good at airbrushing is practice. The more you use it, the better you'll get. I think I've forgotten more than I know now.

I am using a badger 200 (single action internal mix) with createx paintas and some model master. I also am using a 10lb CO2 tank. I am getting good results with properly thinned acrylic and about 35psi I am also very new at this and am still experimenting but so far I like what has come out.

-Z

What are good brands of paint, and good sources to buy from??

Are you better off with acrylics or enamels, IYHO??

Later! OL JR

So today, armed with my Hobby Lobby 40% coupon, I bought the ~$90 Paasche H. With tax it was I think about $56.

I also got my 5 lb CO2 tank exchanged out (that ran me $22).

After I got the kids down for the night I pulled out my "bits" and regulator and such. The regulator has a needle valve on it; I dialed it all the way out (maximum flow). The fitting on the needle valve fit the fitting on the Paasche hose, so I was in business.

I spent some time carefully swapping out the H1 (I think) .1 mm (?) components with the H5 (0.5 mm I think) bits.

Reassembled and gave it a whirl with some reducer. DANG! Compared to the craptastic Testors aerosol can, this thing blows paint! Note, I set my regulator up to ~41 pounds, which is maximum it can do.

I realized I had over-thinned yesterday to handle the wimpy Testors thing, so I thickened up my paint a bit (maybe not enough). Test sprayed some things on cardboard, then added a coat of pearlized white to my test strip, cleaned out the color cup, then put a coat of plain white on the other strip that got the blotchy white yesterday.

Both went on nicely! No blotch or spatter. It was awesome.

Clearly I need to learn the art of thinning, and adjusting flow, and base pressure... but I think I'm ready to paint some rockets.

I've got a build thread over in LPR about Screamers and upscales... my next rocket will be an upscale of the Screamer... just one step, to BT-20. If I screw it up, it's just some body tube and balsa. And no matter how bad the paint, it'll fly!

By the way, the Testors Orange (three coats) looks great now that it's fully dried.

I haven't heat treated any of these, by the way. I don't think Testors requires heat, nor does the Auto-Air, according to the product sheet.

I will continue to post here to document what I learn in hopes it helps someone else.

Note to Luke: I've developed a distaste for rattlecan enamels; never tried airbrushing them. I'm a big fan of rattlecan lacquers, but it's too cold here now! I got my Auto-Air acrylics at an art store I found from the Auto Air dealers web page. See:

https://www.autoaircolors.com/dealer/dealer_frames.html

Hobby Lobby has a bunch of regular Createx, and they also have some of the Wicked Colors that I've read some good things about. Will buy some soon and test.

Right now my biggest limitation is in "canvas" as I've found plain cardboard and body tube act differently with these paints due to the porosity of the plain cardboard.

Marc

@Marc G; A decent airbrush and a tank is winning combination, don't ya think?

Have you tried the Auto Air without thinning? How do you like it compared to Createx? There are a lot of folks out there who think AA is just the thing.

@luke; If you should think about spraying enamel, I'd definitely try One Shot with an appropriate thinner. You want "juicey" color? That's the stuff. It's fun just to open the can and see that pure color. There's nothing like it. I think it's one of the last paints to still have lead. I hope they never change that formula.

Thanks guys...

I really don't know much about airbrush painting... but I'm interested in learning! There's only so much you can do with rattlecans, and they aren't as good as they used to be (or in as many colors).

When I was talking about enamels, I thought about something like Testor's... (bottles). Will that stuff go through an airbrush (thinned?) Just curious. I usually only use it for trim/detail work.

Usually when I'm "non-rattle can" painting it's farm equipment with a gun. I've been using standard TSC "el cheapo" siphon-feed guns for YEARS but recently bought a "cheapy" HVLP gravity-fed gun from Harbor Freight and painted a 1300 IH sickle bar mower with it... It's a REALLY nice little gun and the difference in painting with it is like night and day! Got a regulator that screws right onto the butt of the handle, (and we screwed a plastic air filter directly onto that) and it has a pattern width adjustment in addition to the paint volume adjustment on the needle, so a LOT more control that I've ever had before from a gun! I ended up priming and painting the mower and had about 6-8 speckles on my glasses to clean off-- usually I end up having to take a rag and mineral spirits to clean my glasses after I paint, and end up picking Ford Blue or IH Red or John Deere Green or Allis Chalmers Orange boogers for a couple days after I spray paint with the old siphon feed guns... even painting outside in some fairly heavy wind, I didn't hardly have ANY overspray on me with the HVLP gun, where with the siphon-feed gun I'd have to practically wash off with a rag soaked in mineral spirits to get the overspray off me, or wash off with diesel fuel... Plus, it's really nice being able to clean the gun with a few swishes of mineral spirits and a couple rags, instead of having to draw up a gallon of diesel in a bucket and dunk all the parts in it and disassemble the entire gun and submerge it. The gravity feed gun is MUCH easier to clean!

Anyway, interested in learning whatever I can about it. I picked up an "airbrush kit" from TSC for $20 (external mix siphon-jar type) last fall when they were selling them cheap, (figured it'd work ok for primer or base coats or whatever) and I found an airbrush at Harbor Freight that I picked up fairly cheap (looks like a knockoff of an Iwata or Paasche... single action internal mix, IIRC). I've got a huge shop compressor and a big portable air tank on a golf-cart axle (actually a big converted tractor propane fuel tank) that I can easily bring a bunch of air from the farm shop over to the house here... Or I guess I could always just go over the barn and paint... LOL

Later! OL JR

PS. My latest project...

foamy said:

@Marc G:
Have you tried the Auto Air without thinning? How do you like it compared to Createx? There are a lot of folks out there who think AA is just the thing.

Click to expand...

I tried the Auto Air sealer without thinning. Worked fine with the Testors aerosol brush. Haven't tried with the real airbrush but expect it will be just fine.

Haven't tried any of the paints in the real airbrush withouth thinning, as last night I was using some of my pre-thinned material. I did thinken them up and they worked better, so next time will try straight sans-thinning.

I have some regular createx and will try them as well.

Marc

Marc_G said:

So I found a local place that has the Auto-Air acrylics from Createx and bought some today. But I've got a question and am a bit embarrassed:

It says to reduce with the reducer 3:1. Does that mean three parts paint, one part reducer, or vice versa? I've read the application guide but still have the question! :blush:

I bought some reducer so I'm good to go for some tests, once I figure this out!

Click to expand...

yes the first number is always the paint-
>paint : reducer<

the main thing to remember with the auto air/createx is it has to go on in very light coats..never spray a wet coat , it will take forever to cure, if at all !..it may dry to the touch , but it will not cure properly
always mist it on , you will see it quickly go flat ,than another mist coat ,,, and so on.

these paints dry flat , you have to clear coat it to get a gloss look
they must to be protected with some kind of clear(flat,satin,gloss).
(you can add future to get a gloss look. and a harder skin)

I prefer to use them as intended , the flat finish is designed to scatter/diffuse the light thru the gloss coat.. what results is a brilliancy and depth of color that's not accomplished with a gloss on gloss.

keep experimenting and have fun ! since you can mix colors you have an endless range of colors(and effects) with airbrush paints.

So I've got my "Sealer White" (from Auto-Air) on my BT-20 Screamer upscale. It went on fine (unthinned, .5mm tip, ~43 lbs pressure).

I was worried about even-ness of coveraged due to the small area the brush puts out, but 2-3 coats and multiple passes it blended well.

Is there a way to widen the coverage area other than adjusting the tip/needle screw thing? At best I get something like 1-2 cm.

Also, is there a sandable primer available?

Marc

foamy said:

The Paasche H single action starter set (the one in the box on the right in the photo). Be sure to get a No. 5 spray tip. It'll last your lifetime and more. Easy to get parts for. Badger and the other reputable manufacturers also make nice single action, air-mixed brushes, if I'm not mistaken.

Paasche, Badger, Thayer/Chandler, Iwata (pricey, but incredibly smooth) etc. are quality tools. You don't need a double action at this point unless you're doing complex fades and such.

Stay away from the no-names. The plastic Paasche reminds me of the Testors brush and would make me nervous.

Also, if you see a "How to Airbrush" book—pick it up. It helps and will answer some questions you didn't know you had.

Click to expand...

Any suggestions on a title for a "How to Airbrush" book, or a link to some place that has one stop shopping for the air brushing challegned?