Water-based acrylics: looking for a quickstart for rocketry

Hi folks,

Within the context of LPR and low-end MPR, I'm looking for some info to get me started on the right footing. I'm considering using water-based acrylics during the winter in place of my beloved lacquer rattle cans and other disposable things like Preval sprayers.

With cold weather coming on, garage spraying is coming to an end, and my wife is very sensitive to solvent odors so even a basement vented spraybooth wouldn't work for lacquers.

But water-based paints might work out. I've read some good things on this forum about acrylics (water-based ones, though, the terminology drives me nuts, because my lacquers and enamels are also acrylics!).

I've got several questions:

1. What brand should I start off with? Preferably something I can get from Hobby Lobby / Micheals etc. if possible. I've read that some of them need to be set with a heat gun (hair dryer). Is this typical for all of them? What are the advantages of this?

2. For learning purposes, can I get away with the Preval disposable aerosol sprayers? I could eventually get a small spray gun and compressed gas cyclinder (versus air pump). But for my first experiences I'd rather stick with something simple.

3. What do people use for primer and filler? My normal process involves Rustoleum auto filler primer, bondo spot putty, and a few other things... but in the acrylic world, what will I use... can't spray Rusto primer when it's cold...

4. Is there any warpage risk with the balsa due to the water-based paints? Or other risk to the model and the cardboard/paper body tubes and water based glues? The idea of using water based paints is counter-intuitive to me for this application.

5. I'm a glossy-rocket guy. Typically I use a clear lacquer and finish it off with Future/SimpleGreen for ultimate gloss. What do you folks use for gloss? The water based acrylics dry matte on their own, right? Or are some glossy?

I'd appreciate anything you can do to get me started on the right foot! Rocketry has its own special issues versus say plastic models, so I will be grateful for specific on this! :grin:

Marc

Well, I like the Tamiya Acrylics a lot, but they are getting hard to find right now - I heard a rumor that the plant that produced them was hit pretty hard by the Tsunami earlier this year, and the supply is running low. If you can find them, they are available in both gloss and flat - I've painted several of my models with the gloss and they look great even without clear coating. I have also airbrushed the flats as well - airbrushing acrylics is nice because you don't need as rigorous ventilation as with enamels, laquers or dope (the nastiest part of the carrier is alcohol). I have, in the past, just set up a large box to catch the overspray and used that for a paint booth in my kitchen. I cracked the window for a bit, but that was all I did.

I have also brush painted a couple of models with the craft acrylics like Apple Barrel and similar paints. They do dry flat, so they need a good gloss coat - I brushed a couple coats of future on them and they look fine. Downside - they are thick and will add some weight to the model. Also, I had a little trouble with the future blurring some of the masked edges, so a shot of krylon or testors clear to seal it before using the future might be a good idea. One upside of acrylic paints is that most are really good at "self leveling" - in other words, if you brush them on, the brush marks disappear pretty well. Oh, and, of course, you can clean your brushes with water - I work in a little dishwashing detergent as well - that gets all the paint out of the bristles.

gpoehlein said:

Well, I like the Tamiya Acrylics a lot, but they are getting hard to find right now - I heard a rumor that the plant that produced them was hit pretty hard by the Tsunami earlier this year, and the supply is running low. If you can find them, they are available in both gloss and flat - I've painted several of my models with the gloss and they look great even without clear coating. I have also airbrushed the flats as well - airbrushing acrylics is nice because you don't need as rigorous ventilation as with enamels, laquers or dope (the nastiest part of the carrier is alcohol). I have, in the past, just set up a large box to catch the overspray and used that for a paint booth in my kitchen. I cracked the window for a bit, but that was all I did.

I have also brush painted a couple of models with the craft acrylics like Apple Barrel and similar paints. They do dry flat, so they need a good gloss coat - I brushed a couple coats of future on them and they look fine. Downside - they are thick and will add some weight to the model. Also, I had a little trouble with the future blurring some of the masked edges, so a shot of krylon or testors clear to seal it before using the future might be a good idea. One upside of acrylic paints is that most are really good at "self leveling" - in other words, if you brush them on, the brush marks disappear pretty well. Oh, and, of course, you can clean your brushes with water - I work in a little dishwashing detergent as well - that gets all the paint out of the bristles.

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+1 for the Tamiya paints. I do all my plastic models with them, dries quick and can get them at Tower Hobbies.

What do you guys use for white primer when using water-based acrylics?

Marc_G said:

What do you guys use for white primer when using water-based acrylics?

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Gesso.

i have wondered if gesso would work as a good balsa filler -perhaps it is time to give it a try

gpoehlein said:

Well, I like the Tamiya Acrylics a lot, but they are getting hard to find right now - I heard a rumor that the plant that produced them was hit pretty hard by the Tsunami earlier this year, and the supply is running low. If you can find them, they are available in both gloss and flat - I've painted several of my models with the gloss and they look great even without clear coating. I have also airbrushed the flats as well - airbrushing acrylics is nice because you don't need as rigorous ventilation as with enamels, laquers or dope (the nastiest part of the carrier is alcohol). I have, in the past, just set up a large box to catch the overspray and used that for a paint booth in my kitchen. I cracked the window for a bit, but that was all I did.

I have also brush painted a couple of models with the craft acrylics like Apple Barrel and similar paints. They do dry flat, so they need a good gloss coat - I brushed a couple coats of future on them and they look fine. Downside - they are thick and will add some weight to the model. Also, I had a little trouble with the future blurring some of the masked edges, so a shot of krylon or testors clear to seal it before using the future might be a good idea. One upside of acrylic paints is that most are really good at "self leveling" - in other words, if you brush them on, the brush marks disappear pretty well. Oh, and, of course, you can clean your brushes with water - I work in a little dishwashing detergent as well - that gets all the paint out of the bristles.

Click to expand...

Hobbylinc.com

They have great deals for MOST hobby supplies.... glue is a little pricey but they have a very big paint supply but it really only pays off if you order multiple cans of paint at a time because of shipping and handling.

Love Tamiya paint, I would highly recommend it to anyone




As for other paints that can be used, if you have a spray gun go to home depo and have them do a custom color match sample for a few bucks and thin it with water. Not high quality paint..... by any means, but it is paint and it is very cheap

If I spray the rocket with gloss paint, say Krylon gloss white, and then brush on some acrylic paint will the acrylic stick or do I need to "rough up" the gloss?

Spacepirate R said:

If I spray the rocket with gloss paint, say Krylon gloss white, and then brush on some acrylic paint will the acrylic stick or do I need to "rough up" the gloss?

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Shinny surface = smooth surface

It probably would stick, but I would recommend some like 600-800 grit to rough it up a bit. Honestly I would see no problems with it since your brushing it on but better safe than sorry

I use a flat (usually white) enamel as a base coat so as to give the acrylic something to bite on. Heat set every color so it won't lift off with the mask. I like to enamel clear coat over acrylics to make them durable and shiny, but I'm sure Future would work if you're just looking for shine.

If you're gonna airbrush, the compressed air tank is the way to go. TCPGlobal has most any brand/color of acrylic paint you might want or need.

Be careful with Future over acrylics, especially if you are brushing it on (foam brushes recommended here). If you linger on any area, it will start attacking the acrylic paint below - use enough and you can actually strip the acrylic paint off a rocket. A light coat of gloss coat or even dull coat (both enamels) will seal the acrylic paint and create a barrier that the Future can't attack. Then you can make your rocket bodaciously shiny!

gpoehlein said:

Be careful with Future over acrylics, especially if you are brushing it on (foam brushes recommended here). If you linger on any area, it will start attacking the acrylic paint below - use enough and you can actually strip the acrylic paint off a rocket. A light coat of gloss coat or even dull coat (both enamels) will seal the acrylic paint and create a barrier that the Future can't attack. Then you can make your rocket bodaciously shiny!

Click to expand...

I use a flat (usually white) enamel as a base coat so as to give the acrylic something to bite on. Heat set every color so it won't lift off with the mask. I like to enamel clear coat over acrylics to make them durable and shiny, but I'm sure Future would work if you're just looking for shine.

If you're gonna airbrush, the compressed air tank is the way to go. TCPGlobal has most any brand/color of acrylic paint you might want or need.

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Very interesting, that is the first time I have ever heard That enamel can be used over acrylics. I will have give this a try. Thanks

In my case I want to use acrylics as an alternative to rattlecans due to cold weather. I could spray acrylics in the basement. So... can't use enamel or lacquer primers. What is a good alternative?

And do all acrylics heat-set to allow masking or just some (which)?

Sorry for the newbie questions... I've been a rattle can guy for a long time!

To add clarity / focus to my quest for a primer to use with acrylics like Tamiya, much of the google searching I've done has turned up solutions for plastic models but I'm not sure what the right thing would be for for a wood / cardboard model.

And my specs are that it can't be traditional lacquer / enamel primer due to not being able to either spray it in a cold garage or inside due to fume hazard.

Marc

I've looked at some of the water acrylics in the model section at HL, and wanted to pick some up to try-- I REALLY like their day-glo neon colors...

What do you use for thinner?? Regular well water?? Greg said something about alcohol fumes?? I didn't see any thinner in the aisle with the stuff, and water-based paints is all TOTALLY new to me!

LateR! OL JR

I haven't started using them yet... I assumed they were sold pre-thinned but maybe I'm wrong. Water wash-up.

This is a new area for me to explore as well. I'm anxious to start experimenting but not sure what to use for primer other than maybe a flat white... not really a primer, more of a base.

Marc

luke strawwalker said:

I've looked at some of the water acrylics in the model section at HL, and wanted to pick some up to try-- I REALLY like their day-glo neon colors...

What do you use for thinner?? Regular well water?? Greg said something about alcohol fumes?? I didn't see any thinner in the aisle with the stuff, and water-based paints is all TOTALLY new to me!

LateR! OL JR

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Well, when airbrushing Tamiya Acrylics, I usually use the Tamiya Acrylic Thinner. It is a mix of water and alcohol (I think the alcohol is there to both increase flowability of the water and to allow it to aerosolize better. It is recommended to thin acrylics with water alcohol mix to keep the binder in the paint from seizing up in the bottle and leaving you with a gummy, lumpy mess. I've seen this happen when thinning acrylics with just water. One trick I was told back in my IPMS days was to use plain old blue windshield washer fluid as an acrylic thinner - apparently it has the right water to alcohol ratio, and the small amount of detergent in it helps the paint flow through the airbrush better as well. Don't worry about the blue color - I've never seen it come through into the final paint (it would probably be most obvious in white, but there it could actually help the white look "whiter" - back when I was painting Star Trek starship miniatures, I would add a drop of two of sky blue to my white - otherwise they ended up looking "yellowish" and dingy). I haven't tried airbrushing the Hobby Lobby/Michaels acrylic craft paints (Apple Barrel, Anita's, Createx, etc.) yet, but I have brush painted with some of them. I just picked up a few bottles of the Anita's Glossy acrylic paints - I'll be trying them out to compare to Tamiya's gloss acrylics on a Viking I just slapped together. I'll be brush painting this one, and I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

Marc_G said:

I haven't started using them yet... I assumed they were sold pre-thinned but maybe I'm wrong. Water wash-up.

This is a new area for me to explore as well. I'm anxious to start experimenting but not sure what to use for primer other than maybe a flat white... not really a primer, more of a base.

Marc

Click to expand...

Well, when I was airbrushing (or brush painting for that matter) war-game miniatures, I used either a light flat grey or flat white for the primer coat. One thin flat coat usually did the trick. You can, of course, also prime your model with a coat of flat white enamel - the acrylic will go over the enamel just fine as long as it is thoroughly dry. But, of course, that kind of defeats the purpose of painting with acrylics - avoiding rattle cans and indoor paint fumes. BTW - when brush painting with Tamiya acrylics, I usually don't bother priming the model - Tamiya acrylics stick to plastic nose cones just fine and the coat is usually thick enough to cover minor imperfections. Sometimes they do need a second brush coat to smooth things out and make the paint look even.

When I airbrushed my Black Brant II with Tamiya acrylic, I don't think I primed it either - just gave it two or three light coats with a cheap external mix airbrush. I was looking to the airbrush as an alternative to rattle cans, so I didn't need the fine control of an internal mix brush, so it served my purpose just fine.

Thanks for the insights, guys!

I'll do some experimenting on cardboard scraps and hopefully my next model will be done with acrylics.

My final lacquer-painted rockets of the season (a Screamer and a stretched, 2-stager Screamer) have paint on them now and will get decals tonight, and hopefully clear over the weekend. The weather is cooling and I think this will be it for me and painting in the garage...

Screamers are cool! Did you upscale them at all?

bradycros said:

Screamers are cool! Did you upscale them at all?

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Over the winter I will make a BT-20 and BT-50 set of upscales, both minimum diameter. Also considering a BT-60 version with interchangeable motor mounts.

The BT -50 version with an adapter for Quest D5-6 would probably be an awesome flight...

Marc_G said:

Over the winter I will make a BT-20 and BT-50 set of upscales, both minimum diameter. Also considering a BT-60 version with interchangeable motor mounts.

The BT -50 version with an adapter for Quest D5-6 would probably be an awesome flight...

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Two different sized upscales, I like that.

The BT-5 Screamer uses a BNC-5AX nose cone with a 4:1 ratio and semroc doesen't make a BNC-20AX or BNC-50AX.

Will you use the BNC-20G4 and the BNC-50G4 as replacements as they have a 4:1 ratio and are ogives?

gpoehlein said:

Well, when airbrushing Tamiya Acrylics, I usually use the Tamiya Acrylic Thinner. It is a mix of water and alcohol (I think the alcohol is there to both increase flowability of the water and to allow it to aerosolize better. It is recommended to thin acrylics with water alcohol mix to keep the binder in the paint from seizing up in the bottle and leaving you with a gummy, lumpy mess. I've seen this happen when thinning acrylics with just water. One trick I was told back in my IPMS days was to use plain old blue windshield washer fluid as an acrylic thinner - apparently it has the right water to alcohol ratio, and the small amount of detergent in it helps the paint flow through the airbrush better as well. Don't worry about the blue color - I've never seen it come through into the final paint (it would probably be most obvious in white, but there it could actually help the white look "whiter" - back when I was painting Star Trek starship miniatures, I would add a drop of two of sky blue to my white - otherwise they ended up looking "yellowish" and dingy). I haven't tried airbrushing the Hobby Lobby/Michaels acrylic craft paints (Apple Barrel, Anita's, Createx, etc.) yet, but I have brush painted with some of them. I just picked up a few bottles of the Anita's Glossy acrylic paints - I'll be trying them out to compare to Tamiya's gloss acrylics on a Viking I just slapped together. I'll be brush painting this one, and I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

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Interesting... Thanks Greg...

I've been looking pretty hard at the Createx stuff at HL... may just give it a try! They have airbrush cleaner but no thinner, so I don't know if the cleaner can work as a thinner or not.

Thanks! OL JR

luke strawwalker said:

Interesting... Thanks Greg...

I've been looking pretty hard at the Createx stuff at HL... may just give it a try! They have airbrush cleaner but no thinner, so I don't know if the cleaner can work as a thinner or not.

Thanks! OL JR

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I've not used the Createx, but there was another thread not long ago about it - according to that thread, you have to heat set each layer of Createx paint before masking for the next color, otherwise you will peel the first layer off. From what I remember, a hair dryer or heat gun (such as for Monocote) will do the job - I think they said the instructions were on Createx's website.

That's what is so great about this forum - it gives us the chance to learn from other peoples mistakes so we don't have to re-create them!

luke strawwalker said:

Interesting... Thanks Greg...

I've been looking pretty hard at the Createx stuff at HL... may just give it a try! They have airbrush cleaner but no thinner, so I don't know if the cleaner can work as a thinner or not.

Thanks! OL JR

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Createx 5608 Illustration Base is what you're looking for.

"A binder-based reducer with solvent perfect for adding to any Createx Airbrush Colors in any ratio for improved flow, atomization and reduced tip-dry, especially when using small tip-sized airbrushes operated at lower PSI settings. Reduction may be in any ratio; reduce as needed."

I have some, but haven't had to use it yet. The paint has been coming straight out of the bottle to the airbrush just fine so far.

I noticed that they also have a matte and gloss, clear top coat. I also have their cleaner and again, haven't had to use it. Warm water has been doing just fine. Then again, I clean the airbrush almost immediately. A hang-over from the old beeswax-seal days.

I've found Tamiya yellow tape to be the Katz PJ's as far as masking goes—nothing I've used before has come close. Crisp lines, clean separation and no bleed under—particularly at tape joins. Below are my first all airbrushed rockets w/o top coats.



I expect you could use white as a base-coat as an alternative to enamel. I wouldn't run any of the craft store acrylics through my brush. I don't think they have the fine-ness(word?) of pigment or correct viscosity for airbrush work. I could be wrong, but I'm not going there.

foamy said:

Createx 5608 Illustration Base is what you're looking for.

"A binder-based reducer with solvent perfect for adding to any Createx Airbrush Colors in any ratio for improved flow, atomization and reduced tip-dry, especially when using small tip-sized airbrushes operated at lower PSI settings. Reduction may be in any ratio; reduce as needed."

I have some, but haven't had to use it yet. The paint has been coming straight out of the bottle to the airbrush just fine so far.

I noticed that they also have a matte and gloss, clear top coat. I also have their cleaner and again, haven't had to use it. Warm water has been doing just fine. Then again, I clean the airbrush almost immediately. A hang-over from the old beeswax-seal days.

I've found Tamiya yellow tape to be the Katz PJ's as far as masking goes—nothing I've used before has come close. Crisp lines, clean separation and no bleed under—particularly at tape joins. Below are my first all airbrushed rockets w/o top coats.

I expect you could use white as a base-coat as an alternative to enamel. I wouldn't run any of the craft store acrylics through my brush. I don't think they have the fine-ness(word?) of pigment or correct viscosity for airbrush work. I could be wrong, but I'm not going there.

Click to expand...

Great need to know information. Thanks. Your rockets look really good!

Maybe I need to get an air brush and learn to use it.

gpoehlein said:

I've not used the Createx, but there was another thread not long ago about it - according to that thread, you have to heat set each layer of Createx paint before masking for the next color, otherwise you will peel the first layer off. From what I remember, a hair dryer or heat gun (such as for Monocote) will do the job - I think they said the instructions were on Createx's website.

That's what is so great about this forum - it gives us the chance to learn from other peoples mistakes so we don't have to re-create them!

Click to expand...

Yep... I remember reading that, and it sorta turned me off... still worth trying though...

Maybe I just found another use for the blow dryer I bought to start the tractor in winter... (put the blow dryer on "high" and prop it up under the hood of the tractor blowing under the battery box and across the head and injector valley and around the intake manifold in cold weather and leave it running an hour... come back, pop the intake dust separator off and stick the running blow dryer down into the intake filter pipe, and crank the tractor-- she'll fire right up just about no matter how cold it is!)

Later! OL JR

bradycros said:

Great need to know information. Thanks. Your rockets look really good!

Maybe I need to get an air brush and learn to use it.

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Thanks B. Given how meticulous you are, you'd be a master of the 'ol airbrush in no time.

Hobbylinc.com has the best prices and a great selection (I really researched this). A Paasche H, single action and a No. 5 tip are all you really need for rocket work. TCP Global for the paint. An air tank w/regulator for your air (welding supply shop?). I have two about the size of Lloyd Bridges single air tank on Sea Hunt. I've had them for years and haven't re-filled one yet. The only thing you hear is the hiss of the airbrush.

A hair dryer will set the paint and it doesn't take long. Keep in mind it's not for drying it—setting it. It's generally dry or darn near it by the time you turn your back on it.

foamy said:

Thanks B. Given how meticulous you are, you'd be a master of the 'ol airbrush in no time.

Hobbylinc.com has the best prices and a great selection (I really researched this). A Paasche H, single action and a No. 5 tip are all you really need for rocket work. TCP Global for the paint. An air tank w/regulator for your air (welding supply shop?). I have two about the size of Lloyd Bridges single air tank on Sea Hunt. I've had them for years and haven't re-filled one yet. The only thing you hear is the hiss of the airbrush.

A hair dryer will set the paint and it doesn't take long. Keep in mind it's not for drying it—setting it. It's generally dry or darn near it by the time you turn your back on it.

Click to expand...

Again, great need to know information. Thanks!

I have been considering painting indoors now for a while. Since the garage is way too cold and even there the krylon fumes are no fun. So this thread inspired me to get off my rear and dust off the never used airbrush, get a regulator for the CO2 canister, pick up some paint and give it a try. This evening I put paint on rockets. I think I could really get to liking this. I used a single gauge regulator from the homebrew shop attached to my 20lb CO2 tank and some model master acrylic from the hobby shop thinned slightly with the model master thinner. I have read a lot about alternatives to the name brand thinner but wanted to start from a solid base before experimenting. After some experimenting with various psi and flow settings I am quite pleased with the results. Although I went through the $3.50 1/2 oz bottle of paint alarmingly quickly. I will be picking up some Createx from Michaels tomorrow and will report on my results. I really hope it works as well since I can get 4 times the paint for slightly less money there.

Oh and best thing about it. I was warm and even with the window closed in my small office I could only barley smell the paint which is a different smell than the thinners I am used to . Not unpleasant at all. If i open the window with a small fan I doubt I'd notice anything.

-Z