Aligning Fins

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what if the fin has 5 sides or more?
ie Big Bertha?
I think the only thing that really matters is the root edge and any edge that cuts through the air should "slice" the air.
I very rarely do much of anything to the trailing edges. But that's just me, and I can be lazy at times, or just plain tired of sanding, haha.
 
BABAR said:
I see your point (pun intended). As MarkII notes, if you have a perfectly airfoiled fin (continuous curvature from lead edge to trail edge) you will not have any perfectly flat surface to line up against the balsa edge. As a sport flyer, my fins are never that perfectly tapered, so in my case I'd say about 90 plus percent of the the edge is flat, so it works for me. As a compromise, you could sand a curve along the lead, trail, and outside (non-body tube, non-fin side) of the balsa strip, and cut a length a bit shorter than the fin so you don't mess up the airfoil at the root edge as much. For competition flying however I am guessing the added weight and the drag would be prohibitive in any even.

Terminology question.

Root edge is the part attached to the body tube.
Lead Edge is part toward the nose.
Trail Edge is part toward the tail.

Is there an accepted name for the "other" edge, I guess I'd call it the lateral edge (the edge opposite the root?)
Click to expand...
Tip edge.
 
Woody's Workshop said:
what if the fin has 5 sides or more?
ie Big Bertha?
I think the only thing that really matters is the root edge and any edge that cuts through the air should "slice" the air.
I very rarely do much of anything to the trailing edges. But that's just me, and I can be lazy at times, or just plain tired of sanding, haha.
Click to expand...
I would call them the a. leading edge, b. tip edge, c. clipped edge, d. trailing edge and e. root edge.


Big%252520Bertha%252520fin.jpg
 
That's a pretty good likeness of a Bertha fin there Mark!
Way to go dude. Wish I had the skills to post neat stuff like that!
See what happens when you get old? You slow down so much tech passes you by and you just can't keep up.
btw, what's a smart phone? Somethings that's smarter than the operator? :confused2:
 
MarkII said:
I would call them the a. leading edge, b. tip edge, c. clipped edge, d. trailing edge and e. root edge.


Big%252520Bertha%252520fin.jpg
Click to expand...

As my Mom, a high school science/biology teacher would have said,

"Thanks, you put a wrinkle in my brain today!"

More wrinkles means more surface area means more space for neurons to spread out and communicate. Meaning wrinkled brains are smarter than smooth ones.

Unfortunately,as opposed to other body parts, brains don't naturally wrinkle more just by getting older!
 
Marc_G said:
I haven't had trouble with the jig flexing, but I have had loads of trouble with the little tubes they give you (13mm, 18mm) etc. jiggling around making it hard to ensure the rocket is straight. Even after following the directions and using tape/label shims to tighten them up there's more play than I like.

I think I fixed this, though. I bought a big old bolt, 1/2" diameter, and used it in place of the 13mm tube. I got an appropriate nut and tightened 'er down. The bolt is now exactly 90 degrees to the flat surface and 100% stable. I wrapped a little masking tape around the bolt and either a BT-5 or the 18mm tube fit securely with almost no wiggle.

Marc
Click to expand...

Thanks for that excellent idea Marc, I was having the same problem with that jig, and had set it aside, preferring the yellow angle jig that sets one fin at a time. I'm gonna try that mod for my next small rocket.
 
Wayco said:
Thanks for that excellent idea Marc, I was having the same problem with that jig, and had set it aside, preferring the yellow angle jig that sets one fin at a time. I'm gonna try that mod for my next small rocket.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

This deficiency in the fin jig really bugs me. I recognize Estes has a price point to shoot for, and a certain sophistication level in the average user (probably lower than you typically find here), but the lack of positive vertical alignment of the core mandrel really bugs me.

Not because the fin jig is poorly designed, mind you... but because it's actually very elegantly thought-out given the above mentioned fundamental constraints. The fact that they thought ahead and put in mounting holes to screw it to a flat surface, the nice way the fin holders slide in and out, the way they set it up to handle the two most common fin thicknesses... all of these are great touches. Then, to botch it all because the core mandrel is a silly engine casing with no positive tie-down just makes me grind my teeth. How hard would it have been to simply include a plastic nut and bolt? A few cents to the marginal cost?

Probably a marketing decision somewhere along the way. (I'm in marketing, by the way, so I've made similar bonehead calls myself.)

Oh well... I haven't found the perfect bolt and nut just yet, but I've got ones that work so I'm happy enough for now.

Marc
 
I've got your fin alignment jig right here-

you can get lots of it at Home Depot, on a big roll.

This is the build of my Executioner. I had to enlarge the slots in the body tube for the plywood fins that Estes switched to, but I didn't realize until I had glue on the first fin and had it on the body tube that the slots were not perfectly parallel to the axis of the airframe. I used a bit of tape to hold the front of the fin root aligned front to back, and a thin piece of tape near the tip of the fin to pull it over to be perpendicular to the surface of the tube. It worked fine, all 3 fins are on and they seem to be aligned properly according to my eyes.

photo111311b.jpg
 
I bit the bullet and purchased the guillotine jig. This jig is nice. It comes fully assembled and ready to use. It is easy to use and the first fin for my AAA Bertha is drying now.

It is well built and solid. Comes natural. I think I will lightly sand and use some Tru-oil gun stock finish to give it a protective finish. This is one of those ideas that once you see it, you wonder 'why didn't I think of this?'.

If you are thinking about getting a jig, I highly recommend the Appogee jig. Yea it is a bit pricey, but it is a quality product that you will have and use for a long time.
 
I seen the jig quite awhile back in New Products at Apogee, and I was waiting to see if anyone got one or anything anyone had to say.
I copied the pics and pasted them in my CAD program and printed them and tried to duplicate it.
It was successful, but I made a few changes to more my liking.
First I didn't think the fin clamps were designed correctly. So I slotted the cross angle with just a whole in the clamping angle. This allowed for greater thickness, and it kept the downward pressure equal to the cross pressure no matter what thickness you had to deal with.
Second I made mine to accept up to 4" Diameter tubing.
I also used larger washers on the adjustable side of the tube clamp, which will allow greater clamping pressure with less torque on the wing nuts.
Last but not least, I let the fin clamps overhang the opposite side a few more inches so that you could align top fins better with the bottom fins.
This project costs was absolutely $0.00.
I used left overs from other projects including hardward. Just took some time, sandpaper and mind work since I didn't have any measurements to work with.

And I will agree that this is a great idea, but like most, can be improved upon.
I have future plans to add a extension so that longer rockets are more easily supported at the nose cone end.
Thought my idea was to be able to accept the smallest of body tubes as the BT-2 from Fliskits, I decided that my Estes fin jig would do just fine up to E motor mounts.
When I started building 29mm Motor Mounts, I needed something to aid in the fin alignment/gluing procedure, and when I seen this product I decided it was what I needed.
I am doing a drawing in CAD and those interested will be able to build one of their own, make their own changes/improvements, etc. as they see fit.
Enjoy.

1-31-2012 First use 1.jpg

1-31-2012 First Use 2.jpg

1-31-2012 First Use 3.jpg
 
RodRocket said:
I bit the bullet and purchased the guillotine jig. This jig is nice. It comes fully assembled and ready to use. It is easy to use and the first fin for my AAA Bertha is drying now.

It is well built and solid. Comes natural. I think I will lightly sand and use some Tru-oil gun stock finish to give it a protective finish. This is one of those ideas that once you see it, you wonder 'why didn't I think of this?'.

If you are thinking about getting a jig, I highly recommend the Appogee jig. Yea it is a bit pricey, but it is a quality product that you will have and use for a long time.
Click to expand...

As the inventor and maker of the Guillotine Fin Alignment Jig, I very much appreciate your kind comments on my contraption. And I want to publically thank Tim Van Milligan of Apogee Components for recognising that this is a first quality, hand crafted device and for pricing it accordingly.

Ted Macklin
 
I believe there are only two ways in which a person gets something for nothing. One way is as a gift, freely given by the donor. The other way is to steal it.
 
Yes, but I'm a one man hobby woodworking shop.
Someone is already marketing one, this is just my versions and a clone.
No way I can profit from someone else's idea, Legally or Morally.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "cwbullet @ The Rocketry Forum" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 8:40 AM
Subject: 4 inch Jig


This is a message from cwbullet at The Rocketry Forum ( https://www.rocketryforum.com/index.php ). The The Rocketry Forum owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email cwbullet, you can use this online form:
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OR, by email:
mailto:[email protected]

This is the message:

Nice job on the new version. Have you though about producing it for sale?
 
Woody's Workshop said:
I seen the jig quite awhile back in New Products at Apogee, and I was waiting to see if anyone got one or anything anyone had to say.
I copied the pics and pasted them in my CAD program and printed them and tried to duplicate it.
It was successful, but I made a few changes to more my liking.
First I didn't think the fin clamps were designed correctly. So I slotted the cross angle with just a whole in the clamping angle. This allowed for greater thickness, and it kept the downward pressure equal to the cross pressure no matter what thickness you had to deal with.
Second I made mine to accept up to 4" Diameter tubing.
I also used larger washers on the adjustable side of the tube clamp, which will allow greater clamping pressure with less torque on the wing nuts.
Last but not least, I let the fin clamps overhang the opposite side a few more inches so that you could align top fins better with the bottom fins.
This project costs was absolutely $0.00.
I used left overs from other projects including hardward. Just took some time, sandpaper and mind work since I didn't have any measurements to work with.

And I will agree that this is a great idea, but like most, can be improved upon.
I have future plans to add a extension so that longer rockets are more easily supported at the nose cone end.
Thought my idea was to be able to accept the smallest of body tubes as the BT-2 from Fliskits, I decided that my Estes fin jig would do just fine up to E motor mounts.
When I started building 29mm Motor Mounts, I needed something to aid in the fin alignment/gluing procedure, and when I seen this product I decided it was what I needed.
I am doing a drawing in CAD and those interested will be able to build one of their own, make their own changes/improvements, etc. as they see fit.
Enjoy.


Please be advised that The Guillotine Fin Alignment Jig is my Intellectual Property and all design drawings and written instructions produced by me are protected by Copyright 2011. I do not appreciate anyone ripping off my design and pirating to others, regardless of their techniques or motives.

In so doing, you are interferring with my ability to earn a living and thereby reap the fruits of my labor. What you are doing is the equivalent of a framing carpenter swiping a set of plans from the jobsite and giving it to other builders, screwing the architect in the process. (I believe lawyers call this practice "tortious interference".)

I don't really care if you or anyone else makes my device for your own personal use. Feel free to rummage through the the dumpster for the parts and make it any damned size you please. But you have absolutely no right to convert my design to your own purposes without my permission. I urge you to cease and desist this practice, unless you wish to be known as Woody's Chop Shop.

Enjoy

Ted Macklin
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Goodness sakes Ted, put your sack back in your shorts. Unless your patent covers anything made with aluminum angle and 3/4" specified stock, there is no need to commit Liable.
If it pleases you, I withdraw my offer to help fellow rocketeers to provide a free set of plans to my version of a fin alignment jig. But don't you feel sorry for those that can't afford $85 that has the opertunity to make one for the fraction of your cost?
And if you are making your living off the sales of this item alone, you live much poorer than I, and right now I have NO income.

Sorry people, plans will not be available thanks to Ted's Liable.
 
Woody's Workshop said:
Goodness sakes Ted, put your sack back in your shorts. Unless your patent covers anything made with aluminum angle and 3/4" specified stock, there is no need to commit Liable.
If it pleases you, I withdraw my offer to help fellow rocketeers to provide a free set of plans to my version of a fin alignment jig. But don't you feel sorry for those that can't afford $85 that has the opertunity to make one for the fraction of your cost?
And if you are making your living off the sales of this item alone, you live much poorer than I, and right now I have NO income.

Sorry people, plans will not be available thanks to Ted's Liable.
Click to expand...
Dude, unbunch your panties. You crossed the line and got called on it. It's one thing to clone one for your personal use. But you offered up plans as well. Ted was very polite, IMO, when he called you out on it. I've seen much uglier messages from lawyers.

And it's spelled libel, not liable. And he's not libeling you. You clearly offered up the plans, on the web in front of God and everyone, and he called you on it. That ain't libel.

Doug

.
 
I offered no plans of Teds. I do not have his plans, I do not have one of his product to sample. My offering was for MY design. My offerings was only to help my fellow rocketeers that can't afford his product. But to aid in them in producing something affordable to them that will work.
Unlike cloning a rocket to manufactures specifications, I don't have Ted's specs.
As I replied to an email, I am not trying to, or will I profit from someone elses design, legally or morally.
Semroc offers RockSims of most of their rockets for free download.

Libel, k, I have openly admitted I can't spell for crap, don't care.
Commited Libel is "Woody's Chop Shop". I design build everything I want. Usually by some idea I get from pictures. If ya all think that's chopping, then all wood workers are that design build.

Ya all make it feel like trying to help others out in this state of economic downfall is a crime.

Makes me want to package up some wood,aluminum angle and hardware and sell a kit for $35, to be honest.
 
I will put in my .02. Although not asked for it may be helpful to avoid hurt feelings, pissing matches and possible lawsuits.

First some background. I am an attorney and do know of what I speak. Although I am not a patent/copyright attorney some things are quite obvious here.

@Woody's Workshop

... "your" design is an obvoius copy of the guillotine jig. While you claim to have made changes they do not appear to be substnatial enough to make an honest claim that this is now "your new design." It is quite obvious that the estes jig and the guillotine jig are completely differnet designs operating on very different priciples. Whereas I (and I am sure others) cannot see any discernable differnece between "yours" and the guillotine jig.

I can almost guarantee you that you would never be able to get a patent/copyright if tmacklin has already done so on his design. The copyright/patent laws are designed to prevent exactly what you have done, or at least claimed to be doing ... copying the design and providing, or offering to provide it to others free or for profit.

Also ... there does not appear to be any libel here as you claim. He made a remark by altering your name to "Woody's Chop Shop." While this may be considered derogatory I am sure in the context in which it was used nobody here believed that it was true that you are a "chop shop" and certainly I am sure you have not seen any drop in business (ie damages) because of it.

My suggestion ... keep your clone for yourself and do not provide other clones (or plans) to others or you may find tmacklin (or his representatives) contacting you later.

----

Now back on track with this thread ... I like the Estes jig for what it is; a nice affordable tool for fin alignment on smaller rockets that takes theheadache out of a very important step in rocket buildsing.

I have not used the guillotine jig but seen a demonstration video posted on this forum and it looks really cool! It appears to work for smaller and larger rocket builds but to me it appears that it would be most helpful as the rockets get bigger. It also appears much more stabile and sturdy than the Estes jig. But as said here earlier ... for the target consumer each is designed very well.
 
I would much rather have something that aligns the fins in relation to each other.. ... at least,the estes fixture allows for that.and in combination with a simple machinist square, it's very simple to ensure the tube is plumb while the fins are drying, it's a simple design that works.

I don't see the need for a radical fixture to attach one fin at a time.


and technically it's an alignment fixture ...not a jig guys ..but.... whatever...lol
 
Last edited:
Woody's Workshop said:
I seen the jig quite awhile back in New Products at Apogee, and I was waiting to see if anyone got one or anything anyone had to say.
I copied the pics and pasted them in my CAD program and printed them and tried to duplicate it.
It was successful, but I made a few changes to more my liking.
First I didn't think the fin clamps were designed correctly. So I slotted the cross angle with just a whole in the clamping angle. This allowed for greater thickness, and it kept the downward pressure equal to the cross pressure no matter what thickness you had to deal with.
Second I made mine to accept up to 4" Diameter tubing.
I also used larger washers on the adjustable side of the tube clamp, which will allow greater clamping pressure with less torque on the wing nuts.
Last but not least, I let the fin clamps overhang the opposite side a few more inches so that you could align top fins better with the bottom fins.
This project costs was absolutely $0.00.
I used left overs from other projects including hardward. Just took some time, sandpaper and mind work since I didn't have any measurements to work with.

And I will agree that this is a great idea, but like most, can be improved upon.
I have future plans to add a extension so that longer rockets are more easily supported at the nose cone end.
Thought my idea was to be able to accept the smallest of body tubes as the BT-2 from Fliskits, I decided that my Estes fin jig would do just fine up to E motor mounts.
When I started building 29mm Motor Mounts, I needed something to aid in the fin alignment/gluing procedure, and when I seen this product I decided it was what I needed.
I am doing a drawing in CAD and those interested will be able to build one of their own, make their own changes/improvements, etc. as they see fit.
Enjoy.

View attachment 70288

View attachment 70289

View attachment 70290
Click to expand...


heck of a job woody, very crafty!
 
SacEsq said:
I will put in my .02. Although not asked for it may be helpful to avoid hurt feelings, pissing matches and possible lawsuits.

First some background. I am an attorney and do know of what I speak. Although I am not a patent/copyright attorney some things are quite obvious here.

@Woody's Workshop

... "your" design is an obvoius copy of the guillotine jig. While you claim to have made changes they do not appear to be substnatial enough to make an honest claim that this is now "your new design." It is quite obvious that the estes jig and the guillotine jig are completely differnet designs operating on very different priciples. Whereas I (and I am sure others) cannot see any discernable differnece between "yours" and the guillotine jig.

I can almost guarantee you that you would never be able to get a patent/copyright if tmacklin has already done so on his design. The copyright/patent laws are designed to prevent exactly what you have done, or at least claimed to be doing ... copying the design and providing, or offering to provide it to others free or for profit.

Also ... there does not appear to be any libel here as you claim. He made a remark by altering your name to "Woody's Chop Shop." While this may be considered derogatory I am sure in the context in which it was used nobody here believed that it was true that you are a "chop shop" and certainly I am sure you have not seen any drop in business (ie damages) because of it.

My suggestion ... keep your clone for yourself and do not provide other clones (or plans) to others or you may find tmacklin (or his representatives) contacting you later.

----

Now back on track with this thread ... I like the Estes jig for what it is; a nice affordable tool for fin alignment on smaller rockets that takes theheadache out of a very important step in rocket buildsing.

I have not used the guillotine jig but seen a demonstration video posted on this forum and it looks really cool! It appears to work for smaller and larger rocket builds but to me it appears that it would be most helpful as the rockets get bigger. It also appears much more stabile and sturdy than the Estes jig. But as said here earlier ... for the target consumer each is designed very well.
Click to expand...

if you are not a patent attorney, are you quoting "law" or your version of it? Is that like a family law attorney chasing an ambulance? Just curious, i always get a kick out of people with a one liner to make everyone stop and listen because of expert testimony. Yes he ripped off the design, but i do not see where he was trying to get a patent, nor sell the thing. No i do not believe you know what you speak, just to clarify. I think it was wrong of you to try and scare somebody because they ripped a design off for personal use. Is there a warning attached to the guide stating, "you will be sued if you build one of these, and tell others how you did it"? Look at the people making mods to the estes fin guide here, i am not seeing estes sending in the lawyers because people are using bolts in the things and telling others how to do it. In fact i bought bolts tonight at lowes for mine. Ted is selling his plans for 10 bucks to anyone that wants to build his blueprint. Woody didn't use his blue print. And he called him a chopshop because the man did a great job without it. For the record, I am about to buy one a Guillotine from apogee. Because i think it's a great tool.
 

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