ROCKET REGULATIONS IN NEVADA

[Wainzwhirled]

THIS IS CRAZY!!

I live in Douglas Co., Nevada. If you possess or just store a model rocket here you can be fined up to $1000 and/or get 6 months in jail!!!!!

The County Code has a section on fireworks:
8.16 Fireworks

8.16.010 Discharge, possession, storage or sale--Prohibited
It is unlawful for any person, persons, firm, company or association, within the limits of Douglas County, to possess, store, sell, discharge or set off any rocket, squib, firecracker, or other fireworks of any kind or description. (Ord. 758, 1996; Ord. 560, 1992; Ord. 90 §1, 1952)

Some other Nevada Counties have the same code. They interpret rockets under this section to mean fireworks rockets only. BUT NOT DOUGLAS COUNTY!! They interpret it to mean model rockets as well. So, if you live in this county and have an Estes Quark sitting on your shelf, HIDE IT! They have taken down all the Estes rockets from the Wal Mart and Radio Shack stores.

This is a serious blow to model rocketry. It is completly insane. Someone needs to talk to the county supervisors up here. There are a lot of good launching areas in Nevada. Heck you can do just about anything up here except have a rocket.

Nearby Lyon County, the land of dry lakes, has incorporated the same regulations. They are currently questioning whether or not "rocket" includes model rockets or just fireworks rockets.

This almost seems unconstitutional. Rocketeers in Nevada need to organize a protest against their interpretation of "rocket".

Just pray that this movement against model rocketry doesn't become contagious. Otherwise, how much longer will we have the famous Black Rock Desert rocket festival if we let this continue?

This should be the model rocketry capital of the world. Instead, you can't even possess a model rocket up here!!

HELP!

[o1d_dude]

Douglas County is located too closely to California where that kind of stuff is pretty standard in a lot of places. Sounds like the County Fire Marshal has decided there will be no model rocketry in his/her jusridiction.

The solution is either to move or to see about getting a new fire marshal who is more amenable to less draconian interpretations of the NFPA.

This is another case of our everyday lives being affected by "laws" enforced by non-elected gubmint officials.

[rdbones]

THIS IS CRAZY!!

I live in Douglas Co., Nevada. If you possess or just store a model rocket here you can be fined up to $1000 and/or get 6 months in jail!!!!!

The County Code has a section on fireworks:
8.16 Fireworks

8.16.010 Discharge, possession, storage or sale--Prohibited
It is unlawful for any person, persons, firm, company or association, within the limits of Douglas County, to possess, store, sell, discharge or set off any rocket, squib, firecracker, or other fireworks of any kind or description. (Ord. 758, 1996; Ord. 560, 1992; Ord. 90 §1, 1952)

Some other Nevada Counties have the same code. They interpret rockets under this section to mean fireworks rockets only. BUT NOT DOUGLAS COUNTY!! They interpret it to mean model rockets as well. So, if you live in this county and have an Estes Quark sitting on your shelf, HIDE IT! They have taken down all the Estes rockets from the Wal Mart and Radio Shack stores.

This is a serious blow to model rocketry. It is completly insane. Someone needs to talk to the county supervisors up here. There are a lot of good launching areas in Nevada. Heck you can do just about anything up here except have a rocket.

Nearby Lyon County, the land of dry lakes, has incorporated the same regulations. They are currently questioning whether or not "rocket" includes model rockets or just fireworks rockets.

This almost seems unconstitutional. Rocketeers in Nevada need to organize a protest against their interpretation of "rocket".
Just pray that this movement against model rocketry doesn't become contagious. Otherwise, how much longer will we have the famous Black Rock Desert rocket festival if we let this continue?

This should be the model rocketry capital of the world. Instead, you can't even possess a model rocket up here!!

HELP!

Note the section that I made italic & bold - The original adoption of the ordinance was 1952, granted it has been modified and re-adopted in 1992 and 1996. What could be done is check the historical archives and get the previous versions to see how long it has been in there.

Also look in to how they define "rocket" in each rendition and if it changes. Once you have your facts in line, then you can formulate a plan to petition the County Board of Supervisors for the definition of "Rocket" to be changed so as it does not include Model and Hobby Rockets.

Once you have your plan formulated (with the assistance of you local NAR Section and TRA Prefecture) get on the BoS Agenda and present with the local NAT / TRA members in attendance, a logical and professional oration. Maybe a few other from the local NAR / TRA can also present regarding the safety of the hobby and such.

It might also help to meet with the individual Supervisor for the district that you reside in and talk with them before hand - might give you an understanding if they will be supportive or not, possibly even give you some assistance.

Depending on the election cycle up there, this could be an election year for them !

[shockie]

the definition of rocket in fireworks probably means a pyrotechnic fireworks skyrocket.....not a model rocket. Model rockets didn't exist in 1952 in Nevada or any other state that I am aware of. The local fire marshals interpretation is obviously wrong headed and incorrect. I assume Nevada is a NFPA state and if so, NFPA may be state law and may supercede local ordinances. You could contact the state authorities for clarification on this issue. If the state fire marshal agrees with you, then maybe he would contact the local fire marshal and help change his mind.

On the other hand, this is exactly the scenario that NFPA allows for: local fire marshal's have always had the ability to ban model rocketry in their local fire districts by interpretation or ordinance.

Here where I live, model rocketry is banned from the local parks (along with model aircraft)and its trespassing to launch on school properties without prior approval. Outdoor burning of anykind is prohibited in the county due to environmental pollution concerns! So I do MMX in my backyard when I get a BP craving. And I still get wary looks from neighbors....surprised the local paramilitary swat team hasn't shown up yet with flashbangs at 3Am in the morning.Seriously folks!



good luck

Terry Dean

[spacecadet]

How they can define model rockets as fireworks beats me.
Different country, of course, but here they're legally different.

[Fdog]

As a fire captain in charge of the local Hazmat team, I get called by FPB (the Fire Prevention Bureau) all the time about issues, so, I have some first-hand experience in how things like this ends up in the codes/regulations/NRS.

It's usually there because someone had a problem. ...And once it's in the codes, it's grandfathered forever until someone squawks and gets it modified.

To place this in perspective, you have to understand that in our area the FPB and local Fire Departments are absolutely paranoid (and justifiably so) about wildland fires. We live in a desert, and over the last two years the fuel load in this area has become truly frightening. You can't even drive off-road legally without water and a shovel. Over the course of this last summer, I responded to a wildland fire every other day, averaging 2 to 20 acres. The only reason they cap at about 20 acres is that we throw lots of resources at each fire, keeping them from getting big enough to swallow subdivisions.

FPB wants to help reduce this drain on strained county/city budgets, so they look at reducing the ignition sources.

For example, FPB came to me this summer because they were finding the remains of exploding targets at the head of a lot of fires. The manufacturer claims they're fire safe, so I tested some in the lab, and sure enough, they are not an ignition source if used as specified on the label.

However, they are much more ....entertaining... if you add extra material, such as easily burnable powderized fuels, thus creating a nice fireball. This is an ignition source.

So FPB has a choice:

• add exploding targets to the prohibited items list
• add wordy language about "modified non factory exploding targets" to the prohibited list
• add nothing and absorb the cost of the fires

Soooo...because of some folks that "I saw this on YouTube" , and "Hold my beer and watch this!", option #1 will probabally be implemented and we'll be stuck with this forever. (As an aside, when they asked for my opinion, I suggested #2). So that's how it gets in the codes.

******************

So, now for the interpretation part.

As an example, at Lake Tahoe, starting about 20 years ago we had a large increase in folks that became quadrapalegics/parapalegics after they dove from rocks on the shoreline. They'd hit their heads on submerged rocks or logs.

There was a big media campaign that really didn't produce a decrease in the accidents, so the County passed a law that banned diving from county-owned beaches and shoreline, such as parks. This did produce results and now we rarely have these accidents.

Unfortunately, last year some friends of mine were issued a citation by a Deputy with a sharp pencil. They were <deep breath> scuba diving. They fought it in court, and the judge dismissed the charges, but the law is still there, and almost insurmountable to get it changed, and that's with a judge and two attorneys trying.

********************

So, where's that leave us with Douglas County? The path of reasoned moderation as outlined by rdbones may bear some fruit, albiet slowly, and with lots of work. Be prepared to be there for the long haul.

The East Fork (Douglas County) Deputy Fire Chief is a former business partner, I'll give him a call.

And the Lyon County Fire Chief is a good friend, I'll call him and point out all the millions of dollars that come into their county from BALLS and Aeropac.


Cheers!


All the best, James

[Fdog]

Dang.

Just found this in the Pershing County Codes:

8.04.010: DISCHARGE PROHIBITED:


It is unlawful for any person, persons, firm, company, corporation or association to discharge or set off any rocket, squib, Roman candle, firecracker or any other kind or type of fireworks of any and all description within the limits of the county, except as hereinafter provided. (Ord. 21 §1, 1955)

(The launch area on the Black Rock is inside Pershing County)


All the best, James

[Wainzwhirled]

As a fire captain in charge of the local Hazmat team, I get called by FPB (the Fire Prevention Bureau) all the time about issues, so, I have some first-hand experience in how things like this ends up in the codes/regulations/NRS.

It's usually there because someone had a problem. ...And once it's in the codes, it's grandfathered forever until someone squawks and gets it modified.

To place this in perspective, you have to understand that in our area the FPB and local Fire Departments are absolutely paranoid (and justifiably so) about wildland fires. We live in a desert, and over the last two years the fuel load in this area has become truly frightening. You can't even drive off-road legally without water and a shovel. Over the course of this last summer, I responded to a wildland fire every other day, averaging 2 to 20 acres. The only reason they cap at about 20 acres is that we throw lots of resources at each fire, keeping them from getting big enough to swallow subdivisions.

FPB wants to help reduce this drain on strained county/city budgets, so they look at reducing the ignition sources.

For example, FPB came to me this summer because they were finding the remains of exploding targets at the head of a lot of fires. The manufacturer claims they're fire safe, so I tested some in the lab, and sure enough, they are not an ignition source if used as specified on the label.

However, they are much more ....entertaining... if you add extra material, such as easily burnable powderized fuels, thus creating a nice fireball. This is an ignition source.

So FPB has a choice:

• add exploding targets to the prohibited items list
• add wordy language about "modified non factory exploding targets" to the prohibited list
• add nothing and absorb the cost of the fires

Soooo...because of some folks that "I saw this on YouTube" , and "Hold my beer and watch this!", option #1 will probabally be implemented and we'll be stuck with this forever. (As an aside, when they asked for my opinion, I suggested #2). So that's how it gets in the codes.

******************

So, now for the interpretation part.

As an example, at Lake Tahoe, starting about 20 years ago we had a large increase in folks that became quadrapalegics/parapalegics after they dove from rocks on the shoreline. They'd hit their heads on submerged rocks or logs.

There was a big media campaign that really didn't produce a decrease in the accidents, so the County passed a law that banned diving from county-owned beaches and shoreline, such as parks. This did produce results and now we rarely have these accidents.

Unfortunately, last year some friends of mine were issued a citation by a Deputy with a sharp pencil. They were <deep breath> scuba diving. They fought it in court, and the judge dismissed the charges, but the law is still there, and almost insurmountable to get it changed, and that's with a judge and two attorneys trying.

********************

So, where's that leave us with Douglas County? The path of reasoned moderation as outlined by rdbones may bear some fruit, albiet slowly, and with lots of work. Be prepared to be there for the long haul.

The East Fork (Douglas County) Deputy Fire Chief is a former business partner, I'll give him a call.

And the Lyon County Fire Chief is a good friend, I'll call him and point out all the millions of dollars that come into their county from BALLS and Aeropac.


Cheers!


All the best, James

Thank you so much James. I have joined the Smith Valley Rocket Club in Lyon Co. and apparently the fire chief is working with them. The scary thing is that it seems I can be fined up to $1000 just for for posessing a rocket in Douglas County. Douglas County is not the best place for rocket launching because of fire hazards, but can't I even have a rocket to take to Lyon Co.? Lyon County has many playas (dry lakes) which are perfect for rocket launching. I have been negotiating with Arthur at BLM to use a section of Artesia (Dry) Lake than is under jurisdiction of BLM. Unfortunately most of the other playas are either under jurisdiction of the Dept. of Wildlife or owned by an LLC. Neither will return my calls, emails, or letters.


Thanks again!

[o1d_dude]

Isn't Black Rock under Federal BLM jurisdiction?

[davel]

"rocket, squib, Roman candle, firecracker or any other kind or type of fireworks"

This would imply the rocket is a 'kind of fireworks'. Check the State codes. Here in Wisconsin, State statutes specifically exempt "Model Rockets" from the definition of fireworks.

Wis Stat 167.10

167.10 Regulation of fireworks. (1) DEFINITION. In this
section, “fireworks” means anything manufactured, processed or
packaged for exploding, emitting sparks or combustion which
does not have another common use, but does not include any of
the following:
......
(g) A model rocket engine.
......

[jadebox]

BUT NOT DOUGLAS COUNTY!! They interpret it to mean model rockets as well. So, if you live in this county and have an Estes Quark sitting on your shelf, HIDE IT! They have taken down all the Estes rockets from the Wal Mart and Radio Shack stores.

If what you say is true, please contact the National Association of Rocketry. They need to get involved.

But, I am a little confused. Where did you hear about this? The reason I ask is that I don't think there are any Wal-Mart stores in Douglas County, NV. And, I haven't seen rockets in any Wal-Mart or Radio Shack stores in some time.

-- Roger

[Fdog]

I am pretty sure there is a WalMart in Douglas County; I had lunch at the Qdoba near it a couple weeks ago.

I have many questions about interpretation of these county codes and whether they apply in the Black Rock, so I will call my Fire Marshall (she owes me some favors) and a local Justice of the Peace. I'll report back what they say.


All the best, James

[jadebox]

I am pretty sure there is a WalMart in Douglas County; I had lunch at the Qdoba near it a couple weeks ago.

I apologize if I got it wrong. I was going by Google Maps and it shows the nearest Wal-Mart as being in Carson City. I looked it up because the part about rockets being taken off the shelves seemed odd since Wal-Mart hasn't carried rockets in a while.

In any case, I'd like to know the source of the story.

-- Roger

[o1d_dude]

I am pretty sure there is a WalMart in Douglas County; I had lunch at the Qdoba near it a couple weeks ago.

I have many questions about interpretation of these county codes and whether they apply in the Black Rock, so I will call my Fire Marshall (she owes me some favors) and a local Justice of the Peace. I'll report back what they say.


All the best, James

James, I'm uncomfortable with bringing this whole subject to the attention of people who may be able to change the status of launches at Black Rock.

Perhaps it's just best to let sleeping dogs lie.

[gagreen]

If what you say is true, please contact the National Association of Rocketry. They need to get involved.

-- Roger

Trip Barber was barraged with questions asking if the NAR would get involved to help out the california flyers at the town hall meeting during NARAM. His answer was simple all the NAR could do was provide research, safety info, and other non legal/financial help. The NAR cannot afford to help financially with trying to legalize rocketry in each state or county nor do they have the man power to do so. they are focused on national stuff but will try and support your local legal struggles with documents they can provide. Its less about getting the NAR involved and much more about getting your community involved in the hobby and attacking the laws locally. Good luck.

There is a difference in Firework rockets and model rockets and i read that as fireworks. I would go have a class full of 6th graders build alphas and fly em on the courthouse lawn.

[gagreen]

lol you could call the mass fly "roccupy" douglas county and start a national movement

[Fdog]

Jadebox, no need to apoligize, I guess as locals we take some knowledge for granted.

Old_dude, not a bad tip, I will be circumspect as can be, and not mention "rockets" and "Black Rock" together. Not even in the same paragraph.

I, for one, would like the real story. I used to have a pyro license, and getting the appropriate permits wasn't that hard, even at airshows. I'd rather be legal and unhassleable, than renegade and hoping nobody was well-read on a single word in an obscure county code.

All the best, James

[jadebox]

His answer was simple all the NAR could do was provide research, safety info, and other non legal/financial help.

I understand that NAR wouldn't be able to fight the battle, but they can provide resources to help - the "research, safety info, and other" stuff you mention.

They also need to be aware of any threats to the legal flying of rockets in the US.

-- Roger

[Wainzwhirled]

The Wal Mart up here is just outside of Carson City limits in Douglas county so as to avoid the City taxes. Two years ago they had a rack of Estes rockets. Tuesday I went to Radio Shack to get materials to build my launcher. The Radio Shack manager was the one who told me that model rockets were outlawed in Douglas County. He claims that up until a couple of years ago they sold Estes rockets then one day the Fire protection agency, or whatever it's called, made him take them all off the shelves and cited where rockets were prohibited under the fireworks code. I couldn't believe it so I went home and looked it up. Since the section of code is under "Fireworks" I would have interpreted "rockets" to mean fireworks rockets, the kind that are designed to explode for a pyrotechnics display. However, according to the Radio Shack manager, the new Fire Marshall has interpreted a fireworks rocket to include model rockets as well.

[Che]

It never ceases to surprise me how legislators make rules without thinking of the real life repercussions. Things like this impact the economy a little bit at a time until it becomes amazingly difficult to abide by the written laws. I have heard of places where the laws are so contradictory that if you abide by one law it forces you to break another existing law.

I believe that liberty is in jeopardy in the USA because of an overgrown government that has an insatiable appetite for power and authority.

I also believe that these types of rules are hard to get turned around because law enforcement officials would prefer to maintain or increase their power/authority rather than relinquish it.

Just my 2 cents.

[shreadvector]

Trip has been VERY active in helping us in CA. He had extensive discussions with people at the NFPA meeting very recently. The NFPA committee member from CA will be working on this.
The change process has begun.
The process to change the CA Regulations and the "law" (the Health & Safety Code), normally takes 3 years. It might be changed within 1.5 years simply because they were planning a big overhaul of the regulations already and this will be integrated with it.

Having representatives from the NAR, TRA and the manufacturers on these national committees is extremely valuable both for enacting changes to national codes and for the networking opprotunities these meetings present.

Join the NAR and/or TRA and support them and your local clubs.

Trip Barber was barraged with questions asking if the NAR would get involved to help out the california flyers at the town hall meeting during NARAM. His answer was simple all the NAR could do was provide research, safety info, and other non legal/financial help. The NAR cannot afford to help financially with trying to legalize rocketry in each state or county nor do they have the man power to do so. they are focused on national stuff but will try and support your local legal struggles with documents they can provide. Its less about getting the NAR involved and much more about getting your community involved in the hobby and attacking the laws locally. Good luck.

There is a difference in Firework rockets and model rockets and i read that as fireworks. I would go have a class full of 6th graders build alphas and fly em on the courthouse lawn.

[gagreen]

I wasn't trying to say that the nar would not help. I was just trying to let folks know that the nar, in its current capacity, cannot hire the lawyers that may be required to rewrite and help push new legislation. The nar and tra are excellent associations to have in your corner, and will provide all the resources they can, just when asked about financial aid, it was made clear that the nar does not have the means to do so. Trip was very clear that a well organized local club or coop of a few clubs make the fight much easier than trying to do it on your own. The local section or prefect is profoundly important, community outreach and volunteering also does nothing but make local elected officials want to stand behind you. It is a long process to undemonize rocketry today and it takes a lot more than what the nar can provide at the national level. The local section is the lifeblood of regional problem solving. Its important to use the resources provided from hq, but more important to make your local section or prefect a positive member of the community and develop a positive image within the community.

Good luck i really hope you guys get this cleared up.

[jadebox]

The Wal Mart up here is just outside of Carson City limits in Douglas county so as to avoid the City taxes. Two years ago they had a rack of Estes rockets. Tuesday I went to Radio Shack to get materials to build my launcher. The Radio Shack manager was the one who told me that model rockets were outlawed in Douglas County. He claims that up until a couple of years ago they sold Estes rockets then one day the Fire protection agency, or whatever it's called, made him take them all off the shelves and cited where rockets were prohibited under the fireworks code. I couldn't believe it so I went home and looked it up. Since the section of code is under "Fireworks" I would have interpreted "rockets" to mean fireworks rockets, the kind that are designed to explode for a pyrotechnics display. However, according to the Radio Shack manager, the new Fire Marshall has interpreted a fireworks rocket to include model rockets as well.

Thanks for the explanation. It's obvious that the fire inspector misinterpreted the code. If not, then water rockets, stomp rockets, and Hakeem Olajuwon are also illegal in Douglas County. :-)

It may be that whoever did the inspection was over-zealous and made a mistake. Frankly, I wouldn't recommend pushing the issue unless you personally are told by someone in authority that rockets are illegal.

-- Roger

[billspad]

It wouldn't hurt to tell Estes too. I'm not sure how many potential customers there are in the county but Estes does have a financial incentive to have their products available in as many places as possible.

[UPscaler]

as long as we are here...

I heard the BLM wants to shut down Black Rock to rocketry?



They're trying to take us out!


Braden

[Wainzwhirled]

At this point, I am very confused. I guess I will wait until they slap a $1000 fine on me and/or put me in jail. Fortunately the DA is a friend of mine. The Model NFPA Fireworks Law specifically exempts model rockets from being classified as fireworks:
Exception No. 2: Model rockets and model rocket motors designed, sold, and used for the purpose of propelling recoverable aero models.
I like Jadebox's response. If they don't draw the line where the NFPA suggests, then where do they draw the line? Gimme that stomp rocket kid and pay the $1000 fine!

The State of Nevada apparently has no Fireworks Law at all. They left it up to the counties. And Douglas County wrote the law and left it up to the East Fork Fire and Paramedic District for interpretation. Fdog if you do call the EFFPD Fire Chief, I'll be sure and email you a Christmas card.

Good luck
Thanks
Desert Outlaw

[degreaser]

I heard the BLM wants to shut down Black Rock to rocketry?

Do you have a reference?

[northbendbob]

I can launch from my yard... it would end up in a tree... 4th of july sounds like a war zone.... but if you want to cut down some oak trees on your own property the "study" required by the county will cost you about $7000.00...

[ronald]

There is a box store in Douglas County that sells Estes Rockets and engines.

[Wainzwhirled]

Can you elaborate a bit on this "box store" that sells rocketry stuff?