The MicroMaxx Ah Ha Moment...

So, I enjoy rocketry. I enjoy the concept, the construction, the relatively low cost, the launch, the camaraderie, you get the picture. I've built several larger rockets, ranging from 18mm stuff up to 38, many of which I've never launched. There are a few problems: The launch site I should be at is about 45 minutes from my house. I can go there rarely, can't seem to make club events, and even if I get there, the cost to launch is too much. Not that I can't afford a motor here and there, but on a regular basis, it's just not practical. Then when you figure in an 11 month old and 2.5 year old, it gets kind of difficult to a) take them with, or b) leave them behind.

So, I started thinking MicroMaxx. I started realizing that I could build kits or scratch for VERY low cost, still enjoy everything I love about rocketry, and launch at my local park down the street! Obviously I will have to make a closer safety assessment, but I think it will be just fine.

I figure I might as well start out with Quest's super bundle pack with the 8 rtf rockets, launch system and 25 igniters/motors. That will get me going on the launching and system. Then I can collect materials and start building my own contraptions from there.

I'd love to start a MicroMaxx club in the West Valley of Phoenix. I think we need something more practical for people who want to fly in their neighbourhood park and not drive way out in to the desert.

We'll see where this goes...

If i still lived in el mirage, i would fly micro with ya.

I really really suggest looking into getting some fliskits micro to the max kits. They will keep you building for hours on some and some will get you flying as fast as the ca dries. Building your own launch pad is very very simple using a camera tripod and i highly suggest it. hooking up igniters on the ground on these little guys can get tedious. i built my mmx pad (minus tripod) for under 10 bucks. Music wire, some jb weld, a burnt mmx casing, some kands aluminum sheet from the hardware store, and a nut. Very effective and easy on the back. Ill post up some pictures when i go dig it out of the garage.

Good choice to go micro, I feel you on the price of launching and im single no kids lol. My "local" club's field is nearly 2 hours away but i have 100 acres of fields soo when the corn is out im pretty much on my own for lpr mpr. I fly micro in the driveway anytime i feel the urge to do so lol. Its probably the most fun i have building and flying other than my hpr endeavors. Much much cheaper, and my nieces, 4h, and elementary schools i work with love them.

Go to fliskits and skip the lpb's (little plastic bricks), after seeing your builds i dont know how happy you would be with rtf bricks...

-honest john
-deadringer
-dimunetive deuce
-buckshot

My fave four.

Well, the only point as far as I'm concerned to even own the lpb's is as a collector's item (i know, that was funny), and something for my girls. My two year old is actually very fascinated by rockets, so they would be something she can hold and probably not destroy. Also, they'd get us out flying (more of a kid activity) right away.

Now, from a building standpoint, and my own interests as an adult, no, I could care less about little plastic rockets. Although I did like the thread about the guy who is doing his own plastic mouldings. I would love to just have a whole bunch of spare parts laying around, and build stuff. Anything. Even if it didn't fly and I had to rebuild it. I need that creative outlet.

I will start with some flis kits. I can build a bunch and don't need to launch them soon. I'd be happy for low cost, just to get working on something!

Where are you located? I can get around the country pretty easy. I'd love to travel somewhere, just to launch some MMX and meet some people!

o im on the otherside of the world weather wise lol indiana. My mmx collection is nothing to be too proud of lol infact most of mine havent been repaired from the abuse they took from riding in the bed of my truck in a shoebox home from naram.

i will hopefully will end up back out west after i get my a&p. The pay is better and the jobs more plentiful in aircraft maint out there.

and as far as kids go.. yep the lpb's would be perfect for them i hadnt thought of that. I keep insta cure ca with me when i fly my mmx kits with kids they like to pop a fin or two off fairly often lol.

A&P? Very nice! What are you hoping to work on? I think our Pinnacle maintenance station in South Bend shut down, but Fort Wayne is still up and running! Or maybe it's the other way around, I can't remember. You could wrench on CL65's! ;D

I just ordered five Flis Kits. I'll give them a try and go from there...

Incidentally, I'm in Detroit, Lansing, Flint, Grand Rapids, Chicago, South Bend, Fort Wayne, Indy, Bloomington, Peoria, and the list goes on and on,,, almost weekly... :bang:

I lived in bloomington last year for school before i realized that i am doomed to the life of a mechanic .. lol. Im south east of indy about 45 min from the airport. My ap school is out around the warehouses of indy's int airport. I really miss the weather out west so my job hunting will be targeted around vegas/phoenix. I worked avionics on f-16, and 117's out in new mexico and phoenix and fell in love with the weather.

You will enjoy the fliskits just be ready with debonder to unstick your fingers lol.

Let me go over this one more time. The Quest MicroMaxx RTFs (aka the Little Plastic Bricks, or LPBs) are fine. They are what they are: cute, a little on the heavy side, and not spectacular fliers. I like them. They were the originals, after all, the rockets that started it all. If I was starting over again in micros, I would still get all of them. Just be realistic about what they can and cannot do. I have had some honest-to-goodness nice flights with some of them, some low but still nice flights with others, and some simple lobs with a couple. But they were all successful, and all were entertaining in their various ways. Of course to see the real potential of MicroMaxx-powered rockets, you need to explore the many excellent kits from FlisKits, ASP and Leading Edge, and build actual micro model rockets. (Every bit like traditional low-power model rockets, but a good deal smaller.) When you are done flying your RTFs, they still make nice mementos and cool decorations. Many of us use them as Christmas tree ornaments!

To expand a bit on Mark's comments about the LPBs, the Saturn V is only marginally stable as is. Micromeister (our guru of all things micro) suggests expanding the fins with some clear plastic fin stock. Once you do that, the Satrun V flies fairly well, if not very high (none of the LPBs fly very high).

I've had a lot of fun with BT-5 downscales of classic Estes models using mmx motors - also the Mosquito, Quark and 220 Swift work great when converted to mmx. Do a search in the archive on BT-5 downscales and you'll find a thread that has several wraps (print on 32# semigloss presentation paper for best results) to glue around the BT-5 tubing - no painting required for the model except for the nose cone. I did a couple versions of the Alpha, Der Red Max and the Cherokee D.

gpoehlein said:

To expand a bit on Mark's comments about the LPBs, the Saturn V is only marginally stable as is.

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Depends on which Quest Saturn V you are talking about. There are two of them, one of which flies very well and is my favorite among the RTFs.

One day last year I purposely did a launch of just the Quest plastic MMX rockets I got in the MMX Super Value Starter Set.
The launch report is here:
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2010/12/launch-schoolyard-1282010.html

The Saturn V was successful! Low, but successful.
They all got in the air, some arced over, one flew horizontal, but the Saturn did eject the streamer!

You'll have great results with the FlisKits Micros. My MMX Honest John has 12 flights and is going strong. I's my favorite Flis micro.
I've had good flights from the ASP Micro scale Jayhawk and Wac w/Tiny Tim Booster.

Greg Poehlein and Bob Harrington have made some great cardstock downscales.
My FREE MMX cardstock designs are here:
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/p/downscales-and-plans.html
including the Micro Skywriter. It fells like a pencil in your hands.

Here's a tip on Quest MMX igniters -
If you launch with a 6 volt controller, these will take a second to ignite a MMX engine.
Check and save the igniter after the flight. If it is't burnt through, use it again and again.
I tried to see how many launches I could get recycling the same igniter. I used it 14 times before I broke it inserting a toothpick.
Those Quest MMX igniters will work with 13mm and 18mm engines too!

Have to agree with all who have mentioned the LPB's are for the most part Not all that bad flyers as long as some attention is paid to flight conditions and a little preprep work to those with rolled piston attached streamers.

These little mylar streams do not work rolled around the shaft as they come from the factory. they really need to be unrolled, very well talc baby powdered and folded in half, then halved again. then a third time until they just wrap around the shaft a single time. When the ejection charge goes off they pop open every time

The minium diameter "Standard" lpb rocket looking models with names like "Raw Fusion, Vector & Critical Mass" fly really well but need the twist loc tail section secured with a single wrap of 1/4" masking tape or they have a tendency to pop off at ejection. If you think Micro rockets are hard to find in the grass imagine looking for a small tail section..Doh!

A couple of the larger models like the Space shuttle and Little Joe-II have a tendency to be unstable. As do the majority of Saturn-V's As mentioned earlier. The Shuttle usually flys OK in little or no wind if the launch rod is tilted just a little WITH THE WIND. Little Joe need just a tad of extra nose weight to correct it's wobbly flight in most breeze conditions.

The SR-71, Tomahawk ALCM, and Space Freighter Usually fly just fine. Some times the SR-71 just refuses to eject the streamer but the other two are two of my favorite LPB flyers.
Last but not least is the 3" UFO! This thing is a scream particularly for the kids. The little twist loc motor retainer need a bit of tape but this little jewel will give you 25feet of Woosh every time.... time after time without fail. Funny funny funny!! if you like it's flights, download and build Art applewhites 3" Saucer form 110lb cardstock. with a MMX-II it'll get around 30-40feet

No Matter what type of Micro modeling you'd like to do there is a growning wealth of available standard building parts as well as Cardstock and Standard BT-5 model conversions do keep us all busy.
Chris mentions his cardstock micro Skywriter as one of many Cardstock micro's it's only about 8 years late as we've been flying a standard construction matieral "Full Scale" Pencil since 2003 as part of the Skywritting theme along with "Bic" pens, full size Crayons and markers all of which are available as free download 1-page Plans over on the Yahoo Group HUGE numbers of things to build and do in whatever medium your comfortable building with super quick and simple to very complex..even clustered and staged if that's what your looking for.
Hope this helps.

Never meant they were bad flyers just after following a few of woaz build threads i thought he would get more fullfilment out of building a few fliskits. I only have one lpb the tomahawk and fun for the desk till i lost it, never really enjoyed the flights like i do something i put a little time into.

Awsome information! Thank you so much, all of you! This excites me.

I especially like, "Many of us use them as Christmas tree ornaments!" :smile:

I am NOT looking for altitude here. Quite the contrary. I would be very happy with 20-50 feet, proper recovery, close by retrieval, "park down the street" style. I am actually happy to hear that many of them don't fly high! Stable is another topic. I will definitely fly these often (since they're so damn cheap to launch). I can't imaging there are many ways to damage a micro (unless it literally goes ballistic on pavement), which I don't plan to be near. I would actually love to get in to very intricate balsa construction, using no paper tube at all, NE motors, and tumble recovery. We'll see. The bottom line is, it will all be affordable, and give me the creative outlet, in a topic of interest, that I can do in my "back yard". When it comes to hobbies that work well with families with small children, it's almost perfect...

I don't see a need to compare LPB's with actual kits. They are totally different as far as I'm concerned. I do however like each of them for different reasons. Unless you're that wrapped up in comparing the details of a micro flight against another (which I'm definitely not), they are two totally different animals. I plan to launch some LPB's and hang them on a tree, just as a conversation piece to be able to say, "they were actually flown", and I'm not even a Christian! :rofl:

Micromeister said:

Last but not least is the 3" UFO! This thing is a scream particularly for the kids. The little twist loc motor retainer need a bit of tape but this little jewel will give you 25feet of Woosh every time.... time after time without fail. Funny funny funny!!

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The MicroMaxx II motor has such a big thrust spike at ignition that most micro rockets, even the heavier ones, really zip off the pad. The UFO is the only MicroMaxx rocket that I have ever launched that truly has a s-l-o-w lift-off! Even other saucers pop off the pad much quicker than it. The UFO is really rather unique in that regard. It is the one MicroMaxx rocket that you can reliably get a lift-off shot of!

gagreen said:

Never meant they were bad flyers just after following a few of woaz build threads i thought he would get more fullfilment out of building a few fliskits.

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And you were absolutely correct there. Early on, the RTFs got panned so badly that even now I reflexively spring to their defense whenever I see them being mentioned. We can be more charitable toward them now because we have a wealth of alternatives and we aren't stuck with them as our only choices.

MarkII said:

The MicroMaxx II motor has such a big thrust spike at ignition that most micro rockets, even the heavier ones, really zip off the pad. The UFO is the only MicroMaxx rocket that I have ever launched that truly has a s-l-o-w lift-off! Even other saucers pop off the pad much quicker than it. The UFO is really rather unique in that regard. It is the one MicroMaxx rocket that you can reliably get a lift-off shot of!

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So,,, why can't an underpowered MMX rocket get more of a crowd pleaser liftoff? Would it not be leaving the rod fast enough to maintain stability? Are the lower powered MMX motors still available? Just out of dumb curiosity, has anyone ever developed and tried a micro rail launcher or whatever they call the design that launches a totally clean rocket where it holds on three/four sides? I have a pretty fast camera (12MP @ 10 photos/second), which is much better at capturing liftoff photos then pulling frames from video, as long as I press the shutter at the right moment. I would love to build some really amazing cluster-type micros, just for the sake of capturing amazing photos at liftoff! I realize it would be quite a feat, but how about a micro shuttle? Like boosters and all? Wouldn't that be a photo, even if it didn't go 5 feet??? :grin:

WizardOfAZ said:

Awsome information! Thank you so much, all of you! This excites me.

I especially like, "Many of us use them as Christmas tree ornaments!" :smile:

I am NOT looking for altitude here. Quite the contrary. I would be very happy with 20-50 feet, proper recovery, close by retrieval, "park down the street" style. I am actually happy to hear that many of them don't fly high! Stable is another topic. I will definitely fly these often (since they're so damn cheap to launch). I can't imaging there are many ways to damage a micro (unless it literally goes ballistic on pavement), which I don't plan to be near. I would actually love to get in to very intricate balsa construction, using no paper tube at all, NE motors, and tumble recovery. We'll see. The bottom line is, it will all be affordable, and give me the creative outlet, in a topic of interest, that I can do in my "back yard". When it comes to hobbies that work well with families with small children, it's almost perfect...

Click to expand...

One thing, though: you do have to be mindful of air movement. Because these rockets are so small and light in weight, even a light breeze can blow them around so you should only try to launch them when there is little to no wind. The one exception to this that I have flown is the Art Applewhite Bic Stik rocket. For some reason this rocket seems to go straight no matter what. (I think that it is just a very optimal design.) Art's micro Qubits and Delta Saucers are also quite resistant to weathercocking too, as are the FlisKits micro Triple Threat saucers. Rockets that are marginally stable, like the Saturn V and the LJ II, need calm conditions to fly.

Sounds good. I'm sure wind is a huge role. Especially in retrieval from several feet in the air! If there are micros going to heights of 100-200 feet, wind could certainly blow it, say, into a nearby house/yard/car/child/rock garden/pool...

So here's an idea. I got this toy rocket for my daughter. Actually. I think I may have even got it at the airport in Huntsville. Anyway. It's definitely an LPB! It's actually a pen, which has an ink core and spring just like any pen. You push it down in to the launcher, push the button, and using the pen's own spring, it launches pretty high into the air! I wonder if I could pull/drill out the pen parts, and just convert it! It's pretty heavy, but from what I hear, that's par for the course on LPB's! We'll see. It's a fun toy, but has been put away for a while since my daughter can't figure out how to launch it without standing directly over it...






Then, there is my other dream. I would like to design, build and fly a model rocket that resembles to the best of my ability, my beloved CRJ... Here is a desk model I have in the old NWA paint. LONG LIVE NWA!!! I guess,,, you can call me a NERD. NEVER EVER REALLY DELTA

Actually, what I'd rather see, is a turbine RC CRJ! There's a turbine RC club literally five minutes down the road. There are a few twin engine models I've seen. Pretty neat stuff! I don't know how easy or airworthy a model CRJ would be though. RC guys seem to like stuff with a high margin for safety, and unrealistically high performance. I suppose with enough thrust anything will fly, but they might have to add some lift coefficient to the wing. The actual CRJ's wing is very critical, and doesn't do much without breakneck speed...

WizardOfAZ said:

Actually, what I'd rather see, is a turbine RC CRJ! There's a turbine RC club literally five minutes down the road. There are a few twin engine models I've seen. Pretty neat stuff! I don't know how easy or airworthy a model CRJ would be though. RC guys seem to like stuff with a high margin for safety, and unrealistically high performance. I suppose with enough thrust anything will fly, but they might have to add some lift coefficient to the wing. The actual CRJ's wing is very critical, and doesn't do much without breakneck speed...

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Your Pen Rocket might be a tad on the heavy side for safe flight... Weight it without the spring and ink tube. Can some of the interior plastic be sanded or ground out? If you can get the Shell down to say 10grams the extra internal stuff needed for flight shouldn't add more then a couple grams. MMX-II motors weigh 1 to 1.1grams each. I generally figure 1.1 to be on the safe side.

Critical wing loading might make the CTJ a better candidate for MMX Twin motor Clustered rocket power Josh. Those Engine cowls don't look like they are seperated all that much. Perhaps open motor mounts could be fashioned in each engine housing necked down to the nozzle .281" size. Might be a bit out of scale on the motor end but that usually happens on Plastic model conversions anyway. You'd still have to get the overall mass down to around 20-25grams by hollowing out everything you can. I'm sure alignment of Wing, T-Tail and motor mounts would be all important but should be doable in something either 144th or prehaps 100th scale.

If you can stick and tissue build the model or Cardstock & Paper... I'm sure it could be done in prehaps as large as 72nd scale. Sounds like something to take a look at anyway.
I'm currently scratch building an approx. 1:109th scale F-100D Super Saber for MMX-II power. Not twin engine as yours would be but cardstock and tissue construction should make it far lighter then I could possibly have found if I could find the model in something close to that scale.

There are plenty of 144th and 100th scale Jet Plastic models that can be converted for MMX flight. Even some 1/72nd & larger, if you do a good bit of grinding out the inside of the fuselage excessive plastic and/or cluster MMX motors.
Looks like a couple of interesting "First" micro projects

Josh, I'm going off topic here but I dont care cause I'm a rebel Have you taken an hour to sit at the computer to search local parks then pull them up on google for an aerial view? It's the same for me with club launches. I'm 85mi each way and not exactly thrilled with the direction the club Is going. So until a completely new board is elected or I can get the time to devote myself to a board position, my participation will be limited at best.

There has to be some place out your way to fly A & B motors in the smaller rockets and C & D in the larger air frames to keep you under 7-800'.

It's still a drive for you but there is a great park off the 101 and cave creek road that we fly at. It has a small playground for the little one and very few trees around the outskirts of the basin. I forget what the name is but Google the Costco and you'll be able to see it on the map. It's right next door.

Never built one but have seen a few Fliskits micros and they are spot on for design and quality. I think you'll be surprised how high some of them go.

The low costs per rocket enabled me to build and test many rockets for a MMX streamer duration contest. Nose cones cost about a nickle to make, the tiny fins are about another nickle, the body tubes around 18 cents each, 10 cents worth of kevlar and about a nickle for a 2x20 mylar streamer. So for less than 50 cents per rocket MMX can be a very cheap option. I ended up making some kits of my SD rocket and handing them out to several members of the club in an attempt to increase participation in the contest.

I was too eager, and didn't have the patience to wait for my Flis kits, so I headed to the Hobby Bench in Peoria today between medical appointments, and bought some goodies.

They have all Estes stuff 20% off right now, so I bought a 220 Swift and Quark. I also bought a whole bunch of other stuff like balsa parts of various sizes, BT-5 tubes, and a much needed compass and ruler, plus some x-acto blades.

I started out with the 220 Swift. While glue was drying, I began dinging around with the other parts, and created something similar but different. I used a BT-5 tube, with a custom hand-carved balsa nose, and larger/longer fins which resemble that of the Swift.

The Swift cost me $4.63, while the other scratch model cost me about $0.50!

I call it,,, the .38SPL :lol:

El Cheapo said:

There has to be some place out your way to fly A & B motors in the smaller rockets and C & D in the larger air frames to keep you under 7-800'.

It's still a drive for you but there is a great park off the 101 and cave creek road that we fly at. It has a small playground for the little one and very few trees around the outskirts of the basin. I forget what the name is but Google the Costco and you'll be able to see it on the map. It's right next door.

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My house to Rainbow Valley is 35 miles. My house to your Coyote Basin Park is 27 miles. I just looked at parks in the area. There are a few community ball fields that would work fine I'm sure. What is the proper dimensions I need for MMX or 1/4A? I've found several parks around. The smaller ones are about 400x400. The larger ones are as big as 600x800 feet. I'd actually rather fly my MMX underpowered. I don't want them to fly really high! I hate having to spend your day roaming around the desert trying to find a rocket. There is a place near me that I'm wondering about. It's kind of no-man's land. Just five minutes from my house. I think people use it for ATV's or dumping brush or something. It's mostly just dirt with some shrubs. I could launch there, but it wouldn't be as nice as a lawn chair in the grass. I think I need to explore the local parks more, and just plan on that. There is a park about a quarter mile from me that, including the baseball field is about 500x1200 feet. I wonder if that would do. Otherwise, there's a park literally a block from my house that is about 200x350, but that seems unsafe to me, even for MMX. My first concern is bystanders, my second is property that I don't own such as houses and cars. The park down the road is surrounded by parking lot, non-residential buildings, a baseball field and such. I like those buffers between me and houses/kids/cars/bikes/etc.

Is this big enough?

https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.617997,-112.442432&spn=0.00153,0.003862&t=h&z=19&vpsrc=6

Yeah, but its all freeway :wink: It's a but of a drive bit you can safely launch almost anything at coyote basin. It is designated for model rocketry and electric rc. The rc guys I have run Into were very friendly and cooperative.

I may be mistaken but I believe it Is not permissable to use rainbow valley unless It is a scheduled launch or ! board member is present.