TLP Hawk 1.6 Build Thread

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gdjsky01

gdjsky01

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Edit as of finishing the rocket - It took TWICE as much clay weight to make ROCKSIM happy as provided. Please note I did not fly the rocket stock preferring to put some faith in ROCKSIM's CP calculations. So it might have flown just fine. I simply was not willing to find out. We have tools like ROCKSIM, we should be informed by them when possible. With a D12 ROCKSIM showed virtually neutral stability. Did I build heavy? I papered the fins (no CA) adding 16 grams or so to the fins overall mass (~4gms/fin). However the fins are long and the added mass spread out. Nothing else odd was done cept a engine hook. And removing that from the sim made almost no difference in the CG.

I am letting you know this so you can make an informed decision yourself.

Note: I am not saying ROCKSIM is flawless. I am saying I'd rather be conservative. Tools like ROCKSIM probably were not around in the 90's etc... when some of these kits were initially designed. And if they were, they were in there infancy.

BTW: ROCKSIM says 13.1 inches from the tip, VCP which goes WAY back, says 14 inches from the tip!


I have a lot of TLP kits in the backlog. This one looked simple enough. And I have Sandman's decals. :horse:

First thing I did is survey the parts and weigh them. With all the yammering and grief I've read about TLP, which of course I ignore cuz I enjoy building them :wink:, I decided to first weigh the parts and do up a ROCKSIM file. That is attached. I found that with the supplied 20gms of nose weight, given where ROCKSIM believes the CG will be, it's neutrally stability with a D12. :eek: If I move the shock cord and the chute forward by moving the supplied bulkhead forward 24mm, things are back to stable. But that is a tad too close for me.

So I'll be keeping a close eye out on the final CG. The rocket should only weigh 4oz (~100g) or so w/o motor. So it's no tragedy if I have to add another 5 or 10 grams of nose weight. For mods I only intended on papering the fins and adding a 30cm of kevlar. It will still move on 24mm loads.

BTW: I took the Mad Cow and a scratch built Hawk ROCKSIM file and they all correlated pretty close. CP is 57-60% of the way back from the tip. So it's no wonder it needs mass in the nose (unless you stretch it more).
TLP Hawk 1.6

39INSERT.JPG



View attachment TLP-Hawk.rkt
 
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  1. Sanding down the glassine 16 inch BT-60 tube
  2. Elmers for the spirals in the tube but too dry :no: ... needs water
  3. Dabbing in the thinned filler using a cheapo hooby paint brush. I dab it rather than stroke :eyeroll:

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0001.jpg

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0003.jpg

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0007.jpg
 
  1. Let the tube filler dry
  2. The supplied clay was dried out. I add a few drops of water and let it sit over night. It was nice a soft and I packed the 20 grams into the nose using a 1/4-20 threaded rod cutoff
  3. I added a note to the cone to remind me to seal the weigh in the cone after I know if it will be enough. As you can see the nose cone has been sanded to completely remove the mold lines. ;)

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0009-2.jpg

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0010-2.jpg

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0012-2.jpg
 
Just by going by the box picture,are those two piece fins.Looks like that could be tricky with that little tap piece over lapping the bottom fin section.
 
this thread is relevant to my interests. I have two TLP Phoenix missiles waiting to be built as soon as I gain some more confidence in my abilities.
 
Scotty Dog said:
Just by going by the box picture,are those two piece fins.Looks like that could be tricky with that little tap piece over lapping the bottom fin section.
Click to expand...

Scotty I like the look but the template is just one long fin with the aft notch.

I think I'll simulate those movable fine when I am ready to finish. I can press a crease in the fins using - I don't know... a dried up ball point pen. Or like hcmbanjo and use the back of a single edge razor. Then after I paint I can 'dirty' up the creases. If I do it right, it will look like the pivot joints.

I could cut them out, round the trailing edge and leading edge respectively, and then glue them back on. But I think I will go with QSC (quick, simple, cheap).

Also if you look up images on the net you see some with fins way back and a sizable gap. Others are close in like this model... Not sure if those are varients, or that the way they work - slide back for launch?
 
My brother is partial to Hawk missiles. He certified L1 on a scratch built 3 inch HM. It eventually crashed which lead to his "Hawk Ass" L2 rocket. He built a 12inch Hawk as a L3 project which has never flown but is really fun to look at with its OD green paint and flat black stenciling. I imagine it scares the heck out of his neighbors when pulls it out of the garage.:y:

I've been thinking of scratch building one in BT-60 so I'll be following this thread with great interest.:)
 

I was remiss and did not provide the obligatory parts picture. This will have to do.

Quality wise I am not judging. Instead I am informing you. You decide if this is good, bad, or indifferent.

  1. The nose cone is black plastic and needed a fair bit of sanding to remove the mold lines
  2. The fin wood was fine. One sheet was 6 grams, the other 7.6 grams
  3. The tail cone is made from cardstock
  4. Stock Estes type BT-60 tubing with average spirals - ditto the 3 inch piece of BT50 motor tube
  5. Black fiber centering rings
  6. One straight and one warped conduit - (wood sticks)
  7. Shock cord is 6mm (1/4in) elastic and is about 45cm (18in) (I am guessing - I did not measure it)
  8. Shock cord mount is Estes paper style
  9. 18 inch mylar chute with Estes style lines and paper reinforcements and swivel
  10. 3/16 launch lug (that seems partially painted flat white...weird)
  11. No decals.
Recommended engines are D12s and E15s. If that is the case, I would think D15s, D9's, and E11s, and E28s would be fine if the CG is okay.

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0001-2.jpg
 

The shroud seems to be cardstock. Either 64# or 110#... but I think 64#. I scanned it, the fin pattern, and the instructions before starting. So I'll have them should I need them. Unlike HCMBanjo I did not make three and use the best one... I am just not a first tier builder. Second tier is fine by me.

I cut out the shroud with a hobby knife, then put a curl on it using a sharp countertop edge.

Then came the hard part. Hope this makes sense:

I don't like finding out after the glue dries the shroud is too small on the narrow end or not right on the top end. So I formed the shroud right on the BT-50 including test fitting the fiber centering ring that is the forward shroud support. Had anything not fit, I'd go fix it using the scan on the computer and move on. But it did fit being just the slightest bit narrow on the small end. Nothing to chuck it away and start over about!

When all was lined up and the maximum overlap of the tab was made, I dipped the toothpick in a blob of titebond and carefully stuffed it under the tab and held it. I could not get picture and do that at the same time. Once that grabbed (a minute or so) I could take off the shroud and finish stuffing glue under the tab with a toothpick.

  1. A really bad (sorry forgot the macro setting) of me using a toothpick to wedge titebond under the overlap lip of the shroud
  2. And the shroud

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0002-2.jpg

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0004.jpg
 
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While the shroud is drying... sand. You see I let the shroud dry on the motor engine mount tube and with the centering ring in it. I also rolled a spent 18mm casing on the inside of the shroud seam while the glue was wet.


2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0003-2.jpg
 

Since it would have to be done at some point, I went ahead and cut out the fins.

  1. Hopefully this is not too dumbed down :eyeroll:.... marking fins ... the pattern did not have the grain marked on it. I suggest you ALWAYS do that. Of course you'd never cut the fins with the grain wrong... but I would!:eyeroll:
  2. Hmm... something doesn't look right...
  3. Making the something look right... :D Notice the pipette that one can grab with pliers and stretch into a superfine applicator.
  4. Fins are us!

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0007-2.jpg

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0008-2.jpg

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0010-3.jpg

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0011-2.jpg
 
Enjoying your build thread as I am building a TLP Nike Ajax right now.
 

The Hawk comes with no motor retention. I HATE masking tape motors in. Its either too loose or I have to rip the rocket apart to get it out.

So I ruined the shroud and added a spare engine hook. I put several turns of tape underneath to hold the hook and I notched the shroud for ample clearance and notched the shrouds centering ring support.

Its only one side. If I turn it away from the flightline no one will ever care. I could just see myself crushing the tailcone trying to get some @&$$%* taped engine out.

  1. We have hook, slit, and notched ring.
  2. Hook and glued on tailcone and centering ring.
  3. The dirty deed (it will clean up nicely with a little spot putty filler)
  4. Rings and more rings... drying...
  5. More controversy. Following instructions I drip thin CA on using a 1ml plastic pipette that I stretched with pliers to be a teeny weeny CA applicator. Then I used that tripled up plastic to spread it around. Seems fine to me and should sand smooth. Make sure to open the workshop door when doing this! (Ventilation)

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0012-3.jpg

2011-09-24-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0013.jpg

2011-09-25-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0014.jpg

2011-09-25-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0016.jpg

2011-09-25-TLP-Hawk-1.6-0018.jpg
 
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Where is your build thread? :D:D
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Don't have one,my original intentions were to convert it to 29mm,well this that and the other happened now I am building it stock with a glassed lower body tube.I tried to contact TLP to buy a replacement lower body tube with no luck.It is only 2oz glass so it does not add much weight. :)
 
gdjsky01[* said:
A really bad (sorry forgot the macro setting) of me using a toothpick to wedge titebond under the overlap lip of the shroud
(QUOTE] I'ld like a dollar for everytime I read that line. :eyeroll: :D
Click to expand...
 
gdjsky01 said:

I was remiss and did not provide the obligatory parts picture. This will have to do.

Quality wise I am not judging. Instead I am informing you. You decide if this is good, bad, or indifferent.

  1. The nose cone is black plastic and needed a fair bit of sanding to remove the mold lines
  2. The fin wood was fine. One sheet was 6 grams, the other 7.6 grams
  3. The tail cone is made from cardstock
  4. Stock Estes type BT-60 tubing with average spirals - ditto the 3 inch piece of BT50 motor tube
  5. Black fiber centering rings
  6. One straight and one warped conduit - (wood sticks)
  7. Shock cord is 6mm (1/4in) elastic and is about 45cm (18in) (I am guessing - I did not measure it)
  8. Shock cord mount is Estes paper style
  9. 18 inch mylar chute with Estes style lines and paper reinforcements and swivel
  10. 3/16 launch lug (that seems partially painted flat white...weird)
  11. No decals.
Recommended engines are D12s and E15s. If that is the case, I would think D15s, D9's, and E11s, and E28s would be fine if the CG is okay.
Click to expand...

As to #10 weird, partially white primed 3/16 launch lug. I use them and they work fine, but, if I was a real pro I would ditch them for some real high quality, big money luggery. Then I would tape the left over TLP "lugs" together and use them for their original purpose - drinking KOOL AID!

I built the newer 2.6 inch, skill level 4 version HAWK and it flew great and looked good on an SU E-30-4. Flew low but still looked good on a D12-3. Also used F12s and F24s. These light yet strongly built kits will fly on almost any 24mm motor out there.

As to #9, at least the shroud lines are not Estes style cotton string and I try to tell the guys the swivel really makes this a mid-power kit. But every time I launch TLP I have to be ready with a comeback for the criticism of that hexagon, Party City Mylar chute. So it ain't the prettiest recovery but it brings the light rocket down faster so I don't have to walk as far. And an expensive, heavy old rip stopper nylon chute just adds weight up front which is bad for my beloved, yet sometimes marginally stable TLP builds. After seeing so much TLP Mylar in the sky one of the real mid power dudes gave me a light nylon chute to use and it works well in the big stable Perseus. The matching orange colors and graceful decent are a thing of beauty and I always tell them I hope the flight goes well because I sure don't want to lose my only decent chute.

I won't go too far as to the silly shroud line string attached to the nose cone per the directions, it will work for a while on the 2.6 inch birds, and it might work great on the 1.6, but at some time it will fail, and in my role as our club’s sometimes stout defender of TLP, get ready for the TLP critics to jump for joy as the paper witch hatted nose cone plummets towards terra firma. Luckily, on such occasions, the paper cone has held up nicely as I pulled it out of the soil. I won’t say as much for the potter’s clay nose weight dislodging from the plastic on the inside of the cone. With a few chunks out I rattled the cone at the critics and then cried like a baby saying “MY TLP BROKEN” and they just loved that! Back to the car, squirted some CA to reset the clay, tied on some Kevlar string from a Quest kit and flew it again.
 
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Daddyisabar said:
I built the newer 2.6 inch, skill level 4 version HAWK and it flew great and looked good on an SU E-30-4. Flew low but still looked good on a D12-3. Also used F12s and F24s. These light yet strongly built kits will fly on almost any 24mm motor out there.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you enjoy it!

As to #9, at least the shroud lines are not Estes style cotton string and I try to tell the guys the swivel really makes this a mid-power kit. But every time I launch TLP I have to be ready with a comeback for the criticism of that hexagon, Party City Mylar chute.
Click to expand...

I've had great luck using mylar chutes. I have one of those space blankets I have been making chutes from for years. Cut clean, they are tough, highly visible, and don't stick like plastic (tho I still powder them). I have the aforementioned space blanket and assorted mylar sheets from party city. All seem to work fine for 9 to 24 inch (22cm - 58cm) chutes. So if they are crap, your club members couldn't prove it by us!:tongue:



I won't go too far as to the silly shroud line string attached to the nose cone per the directions, it will work for a while on the 2.6 inch birds, and it might work great on the 1.6, but at some time it will fail, and in my role as our club’s sometimes stout defender of TLP, get ready for the TLP critics to jump for joy as the paper witch hatted nose cone plummets towards terra firma.
Click to expand...

You don't have a persecution complex do you? :D :wink: No worries! I always create a loop in the shock cord and attach the chute to it. I never attach it to the nose code. I figure, wrong or right, it takes some of stress off the nose cone. No hat on the 1.6 inch Hawk... :(
 
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gdjsky01 said:
Sounds like you enjoy it!
Click to expand...

When the light weight, strongly built stock rocket out performs the bullet proofed monster every time, yes, it is enjoyable.


I've had great luck using mylar chutes. I have one of those space blankets I have been making chutes from for years. Cut clean, they are tough, highly visible, and don't stick like plastic (tho I still powder them). I have the aforementioned space blanket and assorted mylar sheets from party city. All seem to work fine for 9 to 24 inch (22cm - 58cm) chutes. So if they are crap, your club members couldn't prove it by us!:tongue:
Click to expand...

Deploy the Party City unbalanced hexagon Mylar TLP chute in a little wind or a little nose down on the bigger 2.6 birds and you will likely rip off a binder hole reinforced shroud line, leaving a shiny yet fluttering chute coming down, not the NASA Apollo capsule like dissent required by the old school boys. Don't be such a cheap skate and get a light weight nylon chute for Pete's sake!


You don't have a persecution complex do you? :D :wink: No worries! I always create a loop in the shock cord and attach the chute to it. I never attach it to the nose code. I figure, wrong or right, it takes some of stress off the nose cone. No hat on the 1.6 inch Hawk... :(
Click to expand...

Take a TLP kit out amongst the LOC, PML, or Areotech fliers and you will soon have many mental complexes - just look at your cheap thin walled tube, paper pointed cone, unbalanced Mylar chute, potter's clay nose weight, poorly molded nose cone, squishy balsa fins, warped balsa conduit, low power motor hook, paper centering rings - one that just acts as a parachute holder for some sense of stability and not even a baffle:eyepop:, tri fold shock cord mount with underwear elastic, drinking straw launch lug, Wall Mart snap and barrel swivels, silly shroud line nose cone attachment (per directions and stock), no decals, and worst of all ... those pinheaded rivets! Built with edible kids stuff school glue and loaded with with a cheapo and simpleton SU motor combined with messy dog barf, why any self respecting true mid power maniac will have to at least snicker under his breath, at least until he sees TLP fly.

Yeah TLP kid, don't come cryin' to me when you can't easily get the clips attached get that shorty copperhead igniter because the motor mount is crammed so far up the tube, trying to make that sport scale TLP junk more stable. Don't come a cryin' when every time those same recessed motors slightly burn the inside back end of your cheap Kraft paper body tube you soaked in CA. I don’t want to hear any complaints about repairing your paper tipped cone that will eventually break, or your paper boat tail that hit the pavement and now has a nice Estes smile. Three ejection charges just charred the inside lower body tube caused by the tightly packed chutes and a little dog barf up front in your narrow Nike Ajax?, too bad, you should have soaked even more CA into that low power tube. Yeah, you’re a hard edged TLP flier now, you can take it.
 
gdjsky01 said:
Yeah thats in the queue... along with 12 others... I stocked up when a few people here on TRF didn't want/need them anymore!
Click to expand...

I did the same thing when they were on sale 40-50% off a while back. From a Prima Donna standpoint TLP is not really worth MSRP - unless you really want one. I have built and flown 17 of them so far, with only 3 left in the bag. Many guys and kids at the club fly them now, but as their availability seems to have decreased, so to have the number being flown.

Needless to say I have used lots of label paper, striping tape, vinyl letters, CA, Titebond and stickpin heads. I have rolled witches hats and boat tails until my mouse pad has gone soft and my dowel is soaked with sweat and finger grease.

Most of my stock built kits fly good, some fly OK, one flies like poo. On that one some people say there's just a kit design to blame, but I know, its my own damned fault. I've seen TLP kid builds fly great and not so great. I've seen a very experienced rocketeer highly modify one, resulting in a first flight that put the "scare" into him, but later on he perfected it and it is now one of his favorites. I've seen flawless paint jobs with a number of after market decals and upgraded detailing. I've seen my Krypton floating on the lake until a kind fisherman brought it back to shore, the only damage being the trifold mount got damp enough to come undone. On an E-30 the Krypton will give a nice whine from the ram jets, making it one of my favorites.

I have never seen a 1.6" HAWK so keep up the good work. The only 1.6" kit I have seen fly is the Sidewinder. Darn, I should have bought more when they were on sale! But after building so many I yearn for the comfort of a thick walled tube, epoxy fillets, decals, nomex heat shields, baffles and pistons, and most of all, for a pointy cone made of real plastic.
 
Daddyisabar said:
Yeah, you’re a hard edged TLP flier now, you can take it.
Click to expand...

Guess I launch with a more 'easy going' crowd! :cool: :) Most of the time, I get kudos for having something other than 3/4FNC. :D:D


My Backlog
Bullpup AGM-12B
Bullpup AGM-12C
Dragonfly
Gabriel
Kormoran AS.34
Krypton
Matra Magic R.50
Nike-Ajax
Osiris MPM - Yep another one!
PAC-3
Perseus II
Pershing
Sea Wolf
Sparrow
Standard Arm AGM-78


Back on topic... fins are papered... film at 11!
 
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gdjsky01 said:
Guess I launch with a more 'easy going' crowd! :cool: :) Most of the time, I get kudos for having something other than 3/4FNC. :D:D


My Backlog
Bullpup AGM-12B
Bullpup AGM-12C
Dragonfly
Gabriel
Kormoran AS.34
Krypton
Matra Magic R.50
Nike-Ajax
Osiris MPM - Yep another one!
PAC-3
Perseus II
Pershing
Sea Wolf
Sparrow
Standard Arm AGM-78


Back on topic... fins are papered... film at 11!
Click to expand...

I also fly with a very easy going crowd - we just banter like frat boys drinking beer on the couch in front of the house on a Friday afternoon. They are serious fliers and very opinionated, and all that banter makes for good stories and unboring posts. When one of my TLP kits doesn't have the best of flights they now expect me to come back and give them a fervent TLP bashing and tirade. When they fly perfect they expect me to come back and be an absolute TLP Homer. Such schizophrenic behavior might be annoying to the true to heart, old school rocket scientists, but after a while they learn to live with it as the BARs are now outnumbering them by an ever widening margin.

With that build que you are going to have a lot of fun. Keep up the build posts and good techniques. I'm sure you will soon say "Do you believe in Matra Magic!" especially if other club members thought it had to be unstable and were jostling for safety behind the trailer. Maybe you can build a more durable Gabriel that still flies perfectly straight, maybe you can show us a technique to get a Sea Wolf with perfectly aligned fin pods, maybe you can make a Pershing 1A that is not always a heads up flight. TLP lovers rejoice and the haters can all go to YORF.
 
Not much to say. I use a syringe to get some titebond down the tail, roll it around a tad, and with a twisting motion insert tail cone assembly. Complete fit around the periphery was 'ok'. Little high on one side, little low on the other, and a very slight gap. Given I did not make a huge effort in precision tailcone rolling, fill-n-finish will make everything well.

Modification: Because my calcs still show a marginal stability margin, I'll probably move the forward bulkhead (yet to be installed) forward an inch or two. That would leave little room for a shock cord mount. So I broke down and tied Kevlar to the tailcone assemble. Sue me. :D

2011-09-25-TLP-Hawk-0004.jpg

2011-09-25-TLP-Hawk-0001.jpg
 

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