Level-3 high-performance design and build thread

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Adrian A

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I have been flying a lot of 38mm rockets, and challenging myself with staging, with partial success. My single-stage 29mm and 38mm flights have been going well, though, with clean recoveries on Mach 2+ and/or record breaking flights on 6 of my last 6 attempts.

I'm not sure why I caught the level-3 bug, but recently I've been spending a lot of time thinking about high-performance 3" rockets. I always try to fly my rockets as high as I can on my chosen impulse class, so I've been doing some simulation on what's the highest that I could go with an M motor.

Two motors that I've been looking into are:

CTI M2020: 2nd-highest impulse 3" commercial motor. The highest-impulse motor, the Loki M3000 has a little more oomph but is 30% longer, and has a shorter burn time. RASAero sims this to about 50kft from Black Rock, but has a peak speed of Mach 3-3.5, depending on how light I build it. That's well into the range where airframe heating is a major design problem.

CTI M840: This motor has significantly less impulse, but a 9 second long burn duration. Better yet, it only gets up to about Mach 2, well within what I have successfully flown before (Mach 2.5). It goes almost as high, simming to about 46kft, so it would still contend for the M record.

My current plan is to certify L3 at Balls next year with the CTI M840, and if everything goes o.k., fly it again on the M2020. So I'll do what I can to design and build for a Mach 3 flight, but I wouldn't need to go over about Mach 2-2.5 in order cert successfully.

Preliminary rocket description:
6:1 Von Karman nosecone. I'll either use a Shockwave Rocketry cone directly, or use it as a mandrel to fab my own cone. The nosecone will slip over the motor for a single separation at apogee, and the main chute will be contained in a separate chute holder that will be bolted to the top of my motor along with the av-bay. I have used this configuration for all of my recent flights. The advantages of this av-bay and nosecone configuration for high-performance flights are:
  • It allows av-bay and chute to be packaged within the curved part of the nosecone, minimizing the rocket length and drag
  • Only 1 airframe break reduces aerodynamic drag
  • An internal structure is provided to restrain the tracking antenna in a nice, straight line
  • The motor keeps the av-bay warm at very high altitudes
  • The apogee deployment doesn't pull on anything restraining the main chute, so accidental main deployments are very unlikely.

The av-bay will have GPS tracking and high-altitude barometric altimetry. Hopefully it will be the new Featherweight Raven+GPS+radio unit if I can get it done in time. Otherwise, it will probably use a Telemetrum and Raven like I've been flying in my 38mm birds.

The aft tube will be shorter than the length of the motor, allowing the motor to act as the coupler. That also gives me the option of using the motor case as a mandrel to make my own carbon tube. I priced out an aluminum mandrel, and it's about the same price as a 3" carbon tube from Performance Rocketry, so I don't think I'll make a long 3" tube on my own.

The fins will be carbon fiber, with almost all of the fibers running in the direction away from the body tube. I have some carbon sheet stock that is already mostly uni-directional that way. I would start with the sheet stock and apply tip-to-tip unidirectional carbon fiber, up to about 0.060: to 0.080 inches. My 38mm carbon fins, made the same way, are very stiff at about 0.045" thick.

I'm shooting for stability margin of a bare minimum of 10% of the rocket length, which works out to about 1.5 calibers of stability. But I'll probably go with bigger fins than that, to get a straighter boost, and provide more options for future staging using the motor as a coupler. I have found in my record flights that it doesn't pay to make the fins too small.

I'll use Cotronics Durapot 862 resin for the tip-to-tip layup, which has a 500F allowable temperature. I have used the 861 resin for a fin layup before, and it worked great, other than not having a room-temperature cure. I'll use that resin for the nosecone and booster tube too, if I decide to make my own.

I even haven't asked the person I want to be my TAP yet, so this is very preliminary. But I'm in the mood for kicking off this design/build thread anyway, so here we are.
 
All I have to say is wow!

Already on the edge of my seat :pop:

Matt
 
3 words....

BUILD
THREAD
MANDATORY

I'm also thoroughly intrigued by your mention of a Raven unit with GPS. Any threads or web site on this (I haven't checked yours yet...just asking).

:D
 
Wow!

This sounds like it should be an awesome project, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. You already know about my plans for black rock next year, so we may have to have some interesting design discussions due to the similarity of our projects. I'll definitely be watching this closely :D
 
So excited, this is going to be great!

Our school is in the middle of our 3"project. However ours requires more room for electronics and significantly thicker fins.

Can't wait to see how this flies.

*subscribe*

Bryce
 
It would be cool to add some onboard video of that flight. I wonder if you could heat-shield the guts of a keychain camera between the motor tube and the body tube, looking down from the base. You would capture the flame and the smoke and would not have issues with the aerodynamics at that speed.

I would also love to see your comments on attempts I am doing in a post I have called "big engines in little rockets." I have an L1 cert. and I am trying to build lightweight rockets that fly with 29MM engines. That gets me into the "I" category.
 
It would be cool to add some onboard video of that flight. I wonder if you could heat-shield the guts of a keychain camera between the motor tube and the body tube, looking down from the base. You would capture the flame and the smoke and would not have issues with the aerodynamics at that speed.

I'm not sure exactly where you're proposing to fit this, since the motor tube is the body tube. I agree that it would look neat, but knowing Adrian, I doubt he would sacrifice performance to get onboard video (and I don't see any way to do it without sacrificing performance).
 
idk the exact altitude requirements, but if a rocket at blackrock goes above a certain alt it either has to be drogueless DD, or have an extremely small drouge, i think because the waiver is an 8 mile radius cylinder, and the organizers need to ensure that no rockets drift past that at much of an altitude.
 
idk the exact altitude requirements, but if a rocket at blackrock goes above a certain alt it either has to be drogueless DD, or have an extremely small drouge, i think because the waiver is an 8 mile radius cylinder, and the organizers need to ensure that no rockets drift past that at much of an altitude.

Ensuring you don't fly out of your launch site recovery zone, is an issue no matter where you fly. even a 20k waiver, an apogee main could place you outside of your recovery zone.

I think XPRS organizers have setfourth a "drouge" size restriction that models after mass vs. possible altitude.

With black rock, its probably very much the organizers discretion.
 
I have found in my record flights that it doesn't pay to make the fins too small.
Definitely, I've decided on at least 2 cals of stability for such rockets because of CP migration at high mach (not that I have anywhere close to the amount of experience you do.)

Do you think the Shockwave cone by itself will be OK for mach 2+ thermal heating?

Should be an amazing cert flight!
 
Definitely, I've decided on at least 2 cals of stability for such rockets because of CP migration at high mach (not that I have anywhere close to the amount of experience you do.)

Out of curiosity, why? The CP migration at high mach is in a favorable direction, as the aerodynamic center of the fins moves back from the quarter chord to the half chord at supersonic speeds. At extreme supersonic speeds, it does tend to migrate back, but you'd have to be going something like mach 5 before it even got back to its original (subsonic) location. The main reason for a relatively large stability margin on altitude rockets is that they tend to be of a relatively high fineness ratio, which tends to make a single caliber of stability inadequate. I tend to use 10% of the rocket length as my goal for stability to account for the differences in fineness ratio (and this is also the same as Adrian's stated stability goal for his project).
 
idk the exact altitude requirements, but if a rocket at blackrock goes above a certain alt it either has to be drogueless DD, or have an extremely small drouge, i think because the waiver is an 8 mile radius cylinder, and the organizers need to ensure that no rockets drift past that at much of an altitude.

Adrian was saying he planned to launch at BALLS, we have a 10 nautical mile radius, about 11 statute miles, and do not have the drogue restrictions. The diameter is larger because we have a 150,000 standing waiver.

Mark
 
Out of curiosity, why? The CP migration at high mach is in a favorable direction...
Hmm, not what Openrocket says around mach 2.5 for some sims I've done, though maybe it's just wrong.

I have definitely had some stability issues for min diameter 54mm rockets with 1 cal of static stability, though that could have been a fineness ratio thing as you say.
 
I'm not sure why I caught the level-3 bug, but recently I've been spending a lot of time thinking about high-performance 3" rockets.

BTW, COOL ...
Caution... you will get bit by the EX bug that looms in those waters...
can't wait to see what you come up with on this thread.

(i scrapped my l3 redux right before LDRS... but i would like to see this motor in a 3" min diameter.)- probably just use off the shelf 3" stuff.
https://rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=231295&postcount=1
 
Wow!

This sounds like it should be an awesome project, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. You already know about my plans for black rock next year, so we may have to have some interesting design discussions due to the similarity of our projects. I'll definitely be watching this closely :D

I've heard of a number of projects that are planning some similar approaches. It will be cool to compare your 4" version of this rocket. I'm sure we'll have a lot to talk about on the aero heating strategy.

idk the exact altitude requirements, but if a rocket at blackrock goes above a certain alt it either has to be drogueless DD, or have an extremely small drouge, i think because the waiver is an 8 mile radius cylinder, and the organizers need to ensure that no rockets drift past that at much of an altitude.

Ensuring you don't fly out of your launch site recovery zone, is an issue no matter where you fly. even a 20k waiver, an apogee main could place you outside of your recovery zone.

I think XPRS organizers have setfourth a "drouge" size restriction that models after mass vs. possible altitude.

With black rock, its probably very much the organizers discretion.

I'm planning for drogueless dual deploy, with a very similar recovery setup as my 29mm and 38 mm record attempt rockets. Of course, I'll work with my TAP on the design, too.

Definitely, I've decided on at least 2 cals of stability for such rockets because of CP migration at high mach (not that I have anywhere close to the amount of experience you do.)

Do you think the Shockwave cone by itself will be OK for mach 2+ thermal heating?

Should be an amazing cert flight!

I think the existing cone will work fine for Mach 2-2.5. But I'm not sure about Mach 3-3.5. I need to do more research and testing. I've been talking with Jeff Lane about the potential for a custom version that uses higher-temperature epoxy, but I'm not sure yet that would be either necessary or sufficient. I'm glad to have a high-performance option for the cert flight that doesn't go into the Mach 3 range. If that looks like it came through o.k. with the M840, I may just re-fly it with the M2020 and cross my fingers in the BALLS tradition.

BTW, COOL ...
Caution... you will get bit by the EX bug that looms in those waters...
can't wait to see what you come up with on this thread.

(i scrapped my l3 redux right before LDRS... but i would like to see this motor in a 3" min diameter.)- probably just use off the shelf 3" stuff.
https://rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=231295&postcount=1

I don't ever see myself making motors, because 1) I tend to be messy, 2) My workshop is in my basement in the suburbs and 3) I have kids. Not a good combination. But I'd be up for a team project with someone else's research motor sometime, though.
 
I think the existing cone will work fine for Mach 2-2.5. But I'm not sure about Mach 3-3.5. I need to do more research and testing. I've been talking with Jeff Lane about the potential for a custom version that uses higher-temperature epoxy, but I'm not sure yet that would be either necessary or sufficient. I'm glad to have a high-performance option for the cert flight that doesn't go into the Mach 3 range. If that looks like it came through o.k. with the M840, I may just re-fly it with the M2020 and cross my fingers in the BALLS tradition..

Coat the NC with some ablative coating and let it melt. Have in the L-3 paperwork it is supposed to melt and be recoated before next launch.

Mark
 
Coat the NC with some ablative coating and let it melt. Have in the L-3 paperwork it is supposed to melt and be recoated before next launch.

Mark

Maybe. I'd rather keep the nosecone smooth if possible though, for drag reduction. If it gets charred and eroded at Mach 3, it will be rough for 90% of the up time. But better than a shred, though, of course.

I'm hoping to learn from people who have sent their rockets through those speeds and back without damage to see if I'm over-thinking this.
 
Maybe. I'd rather keep the nosecone smooth if possible though, for drag reduction. If it gets charred and eroded at Mach 3, it will be rough for 90% of the up time. But better than a shred, though, of course.

I'm hoping to learn from people who have sent their rockets through those speeds and back without damage to see if I'm over-thinking this.

Get in touch with Robert DeHate; he's flown about Mach 2, successfully.

-Kevin
 
Get in touch with Robert DeHate; he's flown about Mach 2, successfully.

-Kevin

I wonder if he's gone over Mach 3. On my J530 shot that went to Mach 2.5, the only damage the rocket had was where I had some significant flaws in my tip-to-tip layup on the fins. The airflow peeled off some stripes of unidirectional reinforcement. I think if I had had done the layup better (I didn't vacuum bag it) it would have been fine.
 
My USC team did Mach 4.2 at Balls last year with a Ti-tipped carbon fiber + Aeropoxy nose cone that was post-cured in an oven to the usual 150ºF. It held up well enough to protect the avionics from a 6 foot playa penetration, to the point that they were able to get the data off the units without trouble. And it came out mostly in one piece, to boot. The most notably melted things were the rail buttons. Fin leading edges were phenolic, which charred significantly as well. Pics and such at https://picasaweb.google.com/109741902423204409253/SilverSpur3AndBalls19

Bottom line, I think you'll be fine kissing M=3 with fairly standard materials; a coat of barbecue paint might help for paranoia's sake, but the structure should hold up OK.
 
My USC team did Mach 4.2 at Balls last year with a Ti-tipped carbon fiber + Aeropoxy nose cone that was post-cured in an oven to the usual 150ºF. It held up well enough to protect the avionics from a 6 foot playa penetration, to the point that they were able to get the data off the units without trouble. And it came out mostly in one piece, to boot. The most notably melted things were the rail buttons. Fin leading edges were phenolic, which charred significantly as well. Pics and such at https://picasaweb.google.com/109741902423204409253/SilverSpur3AndBalls19

Bottom line, I think you'll be fine kissing M=3 with fairly standard materials; a coat of barbecue paint might help for paranoia's sake, but the structure should hold up OK.

Awesome. That's great information to know. Thanks.

Did you glue in the phenolic leading edge inserts after the layup, or as part of the layup? Where did you get the phenolic strips?
 
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Wow, thats a lot to take in.

So are you going to friction fit the 'payload' section to the motor case?

Subscribing...

Rob
 
Wow, thats a lot to take in.

So are you going to friction fit the 'payload' section to the motor case?

Subscribing...

Rob

I'm planning to have a short section of 3" coupler as part of the av-bay that gets bolted onto the motor. Shear pins would go there. It might only be 1/2" or so tall, so I can put the curved part of the nosecone just above the motor. I'll wait to nail down the final geometry until I get a nosecone and some motor hardware to play with.
 
Did you glue in the phenolic leading edge inserts after the layup, or as part of the layup? Where did you get the phenolic strips?

They were put in as part of the layup; carbon was laid up to the thickness of the strips, the strips adhered to the leading/trailing edges, and then carbon laid over the strips to build the fin to its final thickness. The fins were then beveled to re-expose the phenolic leading edges. It came from McMaster (grade XX garolite, 9322K14 or similar).

Hope that helps! I know they are buying Ravens by the gross now too, so I hope that helps a little, too :cyclops:
 
I wonder if he's gone over Mach 3. On my J530 shot that went to Mach 2.5, the only damage the rocket had was where I had some significant flaws in my tip-to-tip layup on the fins. The airflow peeled off some stripes of unidirectional reinforcement. I think if I had had done the layup better (I didn't vacuum bag it) it would have been fine.

All of my flights over M2 have melted the paint so had thermal heating of the surface of the airframe.
Over M3 you get significant ablation of the fins/NC.
At M4 the 500deg stable Cotronics epoxy melted.
I put 1800deg paint on the nosecone as an ablative, many coats.
People talk about putting a metal tip on the nosecone because they have heard that sounding rockets do it.
They do it to dissipate the static electricity, not for flight.
I have flown standard fiberglass epoxy nosecones to M4 with an ablative coating with good success.
That said I have melted my fins at the same speeds.
So I high temp nosecone??
Just be sure it's thick enough so you can loose some of it.
I tend to loose 3/32 to 1/8" off the leading edge of the fins.
If I did them in metal then they would be OK but composite gets air blasted away.
It is not so much how fast you go as much as it is about how long you are at speed and your altitude.
You will get less heating over 50,000 feet.

Don't count on heating from the motor alone.
Eveready makes Lithium primary cells that work great down to -30deg.

Good luck,
Robert
 
All of my flights over M2 have melted the paint so had thermal heating of the surface of the airframe.
Over M3 you get significant ablation of the fins/NC.
At M4 the 500deg stable Cotronics epoxy melted.
I put 1800deg paint on the nosecone as an ablative, many coats.
People talk about putting a metal tip on the nosecone because they have heard that sounding rockets do it.
They do it to dissipate the static electricity, not for flight.
I have flown standard fiberglass epoxy nosecones to M4 with an ablative coating with good success.
That said I have melted my fins at the same speeds.
So I high temp nosecone??
Just be sure it's thick enough so you can loose some of it.
I tend to loose 3/32 to 1/8" off the leading edge of the fins.
If I did them in metal then they would be OK but composite gets air blasted away.
It is not so much how fast you go as much as it is about how long you are at speed and your altitude.
You will get less heating over 50,000 feet.

Don't count on heating from the motor alone.
Eveready makes Lithium primary cells that work great down to -30deg.

Good luck,
Robert

Thanks for your help, Robert. A few follow-up questions if you don't mind:

On the fins that had the leading edge erosion, were you using high temperature epoxy and/or carbon fiber?
Where did you get your 1800F nosecone paint?
How smooth was the nosecone surface after the flight?
Do you have data on cooling of your av-bay during descent?
Was your av-bay connected to the end of your motor during the descent?

Thanks again.
 
They were put in as part of the layup; carbon was laid up to the thickness of the strips, the strips adhered to the leading/trailing edges, and then carbon laid over the strips to build the fin to its final thickness. The fins were then beveled to re-expose the phenolic leading edges. It came from McMaster (grade XX garolite, 9322K14 or similar).

Hope that helps! I know they are buying Ravens by the gross now too, so I hope that helps a little, too :cyclops:

Both of those definitely help, thanks. Did you find a root cause for the deployment failure?
 
Did you find a root cause for the deployment failure?
Not really, unfortunately. The (oversized) charges did, in fact, fire (two clear spikes -- one from each charge -- are visible in the accel trace at apogee), but failed to push anything off. Maybe the nose cone did, in fact, get a little melty and welded itself on. Having seen the aerothermal heating from Robert's flights, most of the "blast furnace" seems to focus on the area right above the nose cone shoulder, where the nose cone is approaching tangent with the airframe line. With a carbon fiber nose cone, I could easily see this heat being conducted down the fibers into the shoulder where, with the extra insulation from the airframe, the epoxy would get sticky and glue the cone to the airframe. Gelcoat or high temp epoxy might help the situation?
 
Having seen the aerothermal heating from Robert's flights, most of the "blast furnace" seems to focus on the area right above the nose cone shoulder, where the nose cone is approaching tangent with the airframe line. With a carbon fiber nose cone, I could easily see this heat being conducted down the fibers into the shoulder where, with the extra insulation from the airframe, the epoxy would get sticky and glue the cone to the airframe. Gelcoat or high temp epoxy might help the situation?

That fits with a NACA report I've seen, that had thermocouples at different locations on a conical nosecone that went up to Mach 5.4. The experimental data matched the expected results that predicted that the heating goes up tremendously where the flow trips turbulent. There were several hundred degrees difference measured between the front laminar part and the aft area with a turbulent boundary layer. In that experiment the transition location was around 20" IIRC.

Stuck-on nosecone is a consequence of heating that I never would have thought of. Thanks.
 
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