BT-80 based Saturn V/ "Saturn I-F"

Hey Luke,
your Saturn is really turning out great....regarding the fins...how about something like the good Dr. Zooch's flame fins for flight??...maybe a longer set that would simulate five F-1's at full throttle....wouldn't have to be to scale of course...they would be longer than your rocket!...do you think that would work? I actually like his flame fins, I think they are a neat solution to the problem...

Rick

ps- I just got Dr. Zooch's Saturn 5 in the mail today.....I have book marked your build thread from a while back....gonna be a fun build!!

luke strawwalker said:

Decals... anybody got a source of 1/152 scale Saturn V and IB decals?? I'll need them both-- the Saturn V obviously and the Saturn IB decals for the Saturn I-F...

later! OL JR

Click to expand...

Can't you just take the scanned in sheets of the 1/100th versions and scale them down with your favorite graphics manipulation program?

Or better yet, after scaling them, use them as a template to build your own?

Just throwing that out there...

FC

NJRick said:

Hey Luke,
your Saturn is really turning out great....regarding the fins...how about something like the good Dr. Zooch's flame fins for flight??...maybe a longer set that would simulate five F-1's at full throttle....wouldn't have to be to scale of course...they would be longer than your rocket!...do you think that would work? I actually like his flame fins, I think they are a neat solution to the problem...

Rick

ps- I just got Dr. Zooch's Saturn 5 in the mail today.....I have book marked your build thread from a while back....gonna be a fun build!!

Click to expand...

Thanks Rick... I appreciate it.

The Flame fins are a neat idea and a neat solution to the problem... and they're terrific for making a kit that practically anybody can build without a lot of 'exotic materials' without a lot of 'specialized skills' and of course it saves a lot of money on materials when selling kits-- but they're not really for everything... and I don't really think that's the look I want to go for here...

Don't get me wrong-- I like the Flame fins too, and for small kits, like I said, they're a quick and easy solution (and quite innovative) on a number of issues, but for kits where you're going for larger and more detailed, I think they rapidly hit their "reality limits" so to speak... Not that regular balsa "slip in fins" like on the Estes Space Shuttle kit or Titan IV kit or Mercury Atlas kit haven't been done before (they certainly have as in the kits I just mentioned) but I'm not prejudiced against clear plastic fins... I just like them REMOVABLE for display.

The older Saturn V kits (Estes or Centuri, not sure which or both) used "slip on" clear plastic fins which were actually thin plastic sheet (maybe 1/16-- I've seen them used on a club buddy's model-- never actually used them myself) which slipped directly over the "scale" size Saturn V fins to enlarge their area. A quite novel and innovative solution that I've never seen duplicated in any other kit. Kits like the Estes Titan II Missile used "twist lock" clear fin cans that attached to the bottom of the rocket for flight, and the old Gemini-Titan II kits used a 'roll yer own' approach, including a couple sheets of plastic-- one to roll into a tube you glued together that would slip over the back of the body tube for flight, to which you glued 4 clear plastic fins you cut from the other sheet. That works too, but it's a bit inelegant... but for the 60's and 70's, it was high technology...

I haven't actually done much work on the Saturn V in a week or so... been quite busy with house/farm/car work. With nicer fall weather finally breaking the 100+ degree heat we've suffered under all summer, I'm catching up on a lot of work over at the farm shop. I HAVE created a rocksim design of both the Saturn V and the I-F and have been playing around with them a bit, looking at different fin sizes and CP location, as well as tinkering with the mass and adding noseweight, attempting to come up with a happy medium. I'm also tinkering with the motor mounts and running sims, and looking at the performance numbers...

I'm sorta at the point in the build where I have to make some decisions before I move forward. It's hard to put fins on the rocket until you actually decide what size and what type! Same thing for the motor mounts... I guess I SHOULD get after it and build the towers-- that's the thing I've been dreading the most, and now the hour has come... :dark:

I'm still considering my "clear flame fins" method-- but I'd have to make a hobby shop run to get the materials-- roll a "tube" out of clear plastic and bond it together with Tenax, then cut clear fins and glue them to the tube with Tenax, and install a couple extra BT-5's in the motor mount out by the outer body tube wall into which the clear fin assemblies would slip, just like a CLEAR version of flame fins...

Still fiddling with it and probably will be for a little while...

Thanks and good luck with your Saturn V... if built "stock" pretty much directly as the instructions say, it makes a terrific flier (papered my fins but otherwise IIRC that build was pretty much spot on stock...)

Good luck! Later! OL JR

FastCargo said:

Can't you just take the scanned in sheets of the 1/100th versions and scale them down with your favorite graphics manipulation program?

Or better yet, after scaling them, use them as a template to build your own?

Just throwing that out there...

FC

Click to expand...

That's a good idea, but I don't have a scan of the decals of the 1/100 version... :sad: Actually I don't have a "favorite graphics manipulation program" either... (well, other than MS Paint which was on the computer when we bought it... and that hardly counts does it?? :wink: )

Another reason I haven't been doing much with the Saturn build is that I've been trading messages with John Pursley, *THE* guru of all things Saturn, on various issues like the motor mounts, fin sizing, nose weight, CP location, stability, and stuff like that... He's offered to send me some Saturn V decals in .jpg format when he gets a chance, so I might be saved yet...

Later and thanks for the great idea... any idea where I could get a scan of the 1/100 decals?? I'm also gonna need them for the Saturn IB (to mod slightly for the Saturn I-F). Thanks again, I appreciate it!

OL JR

luke strawwalker said:

Later and thanks for the great idea... any idea where I could get a scan of the 1/100 decals?? I'm also gonna need them for the Saturn IB (to mod slightly for the Saturn I-F). Thanks again, I appreciate it!

Click to expand...

Well, here is the newest Estes 1/100 Saturn V decals:

https://www.spacemodeling.org/JimZ/est2001.htm

The old Estes 1/70 Saturn 1B decals:

https://www.spacemodeling.org/JimZ/k-29.htm

The old Estes 1/100 Saturn 1B decals:

https://plans.rocketshoppe.com/estes/est2048/est2048.htm

As far as graphics manipulation programs go, GIMP is a popular one, powerful, and free. Some folks use Paint.NET, also free. Less powerful, but may be what you need.

Whatever program you use, typically you'll want to manipulate images at 1200 dots per inch (DPI) so you can print at least at 600 DPI. Also, until you're ready to print the final image, try not to use JPGs, because they use a 'lossy' algorithim that can result in loss of information and artifacts.

Start here...I can tell you some of my techniques (using Photoshop) as your questions come up:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=26105

FC

FastCargo said:

Well, here is the newest Estes 1/100 Saturn V decals:

https://www.spacemodeling.org/JimZ/est2001.htm

The old Estes 1/70 Saturn 1B decals:

https://www.spacemodeling.org/JimZ/k-29.htm

The old Estes 1/100 Saturn 1B decals:

https://plans.rocketshoppe.com/estes/est2048/est2048.htm

As far as graphics manipulation programs go, GIMP is a popular one, powerful, and free. Some folks use Paint.NET, also free. Less powerful, but may be what you need.

Whatever program you use, typically you'll want to manipulate images at 1200 dots per inch (DPI) so you can print at least at 600 DPI. Also, until you're ready to print the final image, try not to use JPGs, because they use a 'lossy' algorithim that can result in loss of information and artifacts.

Start here...I can tell you some of my techniques (using Photoshop) as your questions come up:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=26105

FC

Click to expand...

Thanks... didn't even think about the Jim Z site... I appreciate it.

I'll check out the thread and PM you with any questions... probably not going to tackle them right away though...

I appreciate it! later! OL JR

Well, after a long hiatus, I've started working on this project again... My 9 year old daughter got into a building kick this past week or so, and we finished an Estes Freefall and we're working on an Estes Neon at the moment. I had done a major cleanout/rearrangement of my working area and in building Keira's kits, the Saturns started calling to me again. Two main hangups led me to stop work to consider options... one was I wasn't particularly in any rush to do the towers, and the other was making the decisions on what motor mounts and combinations of motor(s) to pick for the kits. Still not 100% committed to any particular choice on the motors, but I figured I COULD and SHOULD get after it on the towers.

I got these tower kits from Dr. Zooch when I bought the SLA panel transition, the Apollo SM tube, and the Apollo capsule tube from him a few years ago. The towers come in little tiny ziplock "dime bags" and contain a paper cone section for the aft flare of the LES tower rocket motor, a pair of small square sticks that have to be sanded round to make the tower legs, and a couple hair-thin steel wires which are used to make the tower cross-braces themselves. If you've built a Dr. Zooch Saturn IB rocket, this is the exact same components and methods used in that kit...


I started off by carefully cutting out the paper conical section for the bottom of the LES tower with a sharp hobby knife.


Next, the paper cones are pre-curled by rolling over the conical tip of a mechanical pencil, and then carefully glued up and clamped with the smooth-jawed hemostats. Once dried, they're removed and set aside.


The tower's LES rocket motors themselves are made from a wooden dowels. The kit dowels are removed and lightly sanded to smooth them out, and gently round the tip to simulate the "Q-ball" at the tip of the tower (a component of the guidance system). The paper cones are then slid down over the tips of the dowels and glued in place with white glue.


The towers are constructed from square sticks that are then sanded round using some 220 grit sandpaper. Then the sticks are cut down to 3/4 inch lengths to make the individual legs, two from each stick (with a bit piece left over). Having constructed a several of these towers for the Dr. Zooch "Freedom 7" and Mercury Atlas rockets, I find I can do a MUCH better job by using a "jig" to help align the legs. Those towers use 3 legs and the Apollo LES used 4, so I had to make a quick tower jig for this job... to do it I took an old pen barrel (which just so happens had been made into a "Gatling gun cannon" for various projects in another of my threads) and put a few wraps of tape around it. I then cut small grooves to hold the tower legs 90 degrees apart around the circumference of the pen tube. Then I put a wrap of scotch tape around it, and wedged the tower legs in underneath the scotch tape to hold them snugly in the grooves. Then I put some yellow wood glue into the "channel" between the paper cone and the dowel... then put the tower onto the dowels... carefully roll the thing between the fingers, keeping it straight, and look to observe any "wobble", then adjust the tower until it's as straight as possible. Then set it aside to dry upright so it doesn't sag...

More to come! OL JR

Next we make the crossmember reinforcements for the tower legs. The original Dr. Zooch instructions have you cut the individual reinforcement tubes from the tiny wires included in the tower kits. This is the same method used in the Saturn IB, the Mercury Atlas, and others. I had been thinking about different ways to simplify this process, and gave it a whirl on this tower. Instead of individually cutting and gluing each small piece to the tower legs, which would be four on each side of the tower in this case, for a total of 16 individually cut and glue pieces, I decided to make them out of a single piece of steel carefully bent to the proper shape. A little experimentation and comparing the part to the tower legs to get the correct proportions, and mark the steel wire at the proper spots for the bends with a sharpie marker, and then carefully holding the wire in a hemostat to bend it to the correct angles, is necessary. The finished result should look like this. They should all be bent to match one another as closely as possible, so they all remain "level" around the tower.


Next they are individually fitted and glued up to the tower. Because of slight irregularities in the spacing and alignment of the legs, it's advisable to individually fit them to each side as you come to it. However, it is necessary to make sure that the horizontal sections all remain aligned and "level" all the way around the tower.




Once the tower reinforcements are glued up and allowed to dry, I decided that I wanted to 'soup up' the regular tower construction, by adding the LES rocket nozzles. So, I traced the outline of a yellow spacer tube from an old Estes kit onto the edge of a file card, and cut the half-rounds out using a hobby knife. Then I applied white glue to them, and wrapped them around a wooden skewer to make them into cones, and set them aside to dry...


More to come! OL JR

definitely going to sub this build! A moderately large scale build of this rocket is certainly on my rocketry bucket list!

To make the nozzle "blanks", I traced around an old Estes yellow engine spacer tube from a kit my daughter's building, to make half-rounds, that I then cut out of the edge of a file card. Then they're pre-curled around the tip of a wooden skewer and then white glue applied, and then rolled around the skewer tip and removed to dry...


Between steps on the towers, I worked on some experiments for making the thruster quads for the Apollo SM's... these are truly tiny objects, so small that the Dr. Zooch Saturn IB doesn't even include them, but an Apollo truly doesn't look entirely complete without them... Plus I was truly inspired by the FANTASTIC work by NJRick, the undisputed master of the Dr. Zooch Saturn IB. I knew he'd made some tiny 3D nozzles out of bits of plastic rod, but I was looking for a slightly faster, easier, and hopefully more durable method. I had experimented with some ideas before for molding them, but thought I might have an easier method. Basically, I tried cutting the shape of the thruster quads from cardstock. My first experiment was using the thick "matte board" cardstock waste surrounding the laser-cut centering rings from my daughter's Estes kit. The material was very hard to cut with a hobby knife due to its thickness, and didn't look very good when done-- far too thick and "blocky" looking. Then I switched to using some scrap 65 pound cardstock from a Dr. Zooch kit wrap sheet. That turned out far too flat and didn't look right either. Then I got ahold of some 100 pound cardstock scrap I had laying around and cut it out of that. Still awfully flat and "two dimensional", but better. Then I got the idea that I might get a hint of 3D effect by cutting another smaller center rectangle to glue on top of the bottom half with the nozzles, to represent the central "box" to which the nozzles mount. SO I cut out a slightly smaller rectangle than the central area between the nozzles, applied a tiny drop of white glue, and then moved the rectangle onto it, and centered it up. The result is acceptable, better than nothing, but still, I think the cast ones or NJRick's handbuilt plastic rod ones are MUCH better, which is probably what I'll end up using...



Later! OL JR

The oversize paper nozzles are slipped back onto the wooden skewer and then trimmed down with a hobby knife to the correct length (arrived at by trial and error, but basically the last 1/8 inch or so of the length from the tip. Then it's glued into the tower just above the top angle brace. Here's a pic of the finished tower...


I learned a few things from the first tower... for one thing, in the process of "centering up" the LES motor dowel on the legs and getting everything straight and true, the glue will soften up the paper shroud, and then the legs can kind of "dent" the paper a bit while working things around to get it all lined up. So, for the second tower, I started by trimming the upper ends of the tower leg sticks to a slight angle, to better match the angled paper shroud of the back end of the LES motor... I then installed the legs into the jig, after I had popped the first finished tower out from under the tape holding the legs in place...


Yellow wood glue is added to the underside of the paper shroud around the dowel base, and then it's installed on top of the legs, and the entire assembly rolled between the fingers to determine whether it's straight or not, and adjust it out until it is. Once its as true as possible, it's set aside to dry...


I want to give due credit... in reading NJRick's awesome build threads on the Dr. Zooch Saturn IB, where he's taken that kit to a level nobody else has, really inspired me to try something new. The tower per the Dr. Zooch instructions is good; folks have reported incidents of the rocket lawn darting from altitude with NO damage to the tower other than popping it off the Apollo capsule nosecone, requiring only an application of glue to set it back on the capsule. So, it's not a matter of strength. But while the method of using the bits of wire set in a "double-Z" pattern works wonderfully well to make a realistic looking three legged tower for the Mercury spacecraft, it doesn't look quite right on the Apollo, which used complex tower design with pairs of straight and inverted "V's", the upper ones welded to a "donut ring" inside the tower legs, with more welded underneath the ring going back out to the tower legs, then a cross-brace between legs, and angled braces underneath the cross brace making a sort of inverted "V" again. Here's a photo of the actual Apollo tower I took at JSC on the Saturn V display there...


Anyway, that's the progress to this point... More later...

OL JR

Luke...she is looking AWESOME! I like your idea of attaching the LES legs directly to the LES dowel and then slipping the paper wrap down...I think that is a great idea. it is tough to get the legs lined up straight as you mention and then you worry..is that tower crooked?? I like your thrusters made out of 100 lb card stock...that looks pretty good to me! They are tiny little buggers aren't they? With my thruster quads, all four easily fit onto a penny...

NJRick said:

Luke...she is looking AWESOME! I like your idea of attaching the LES legs directly to the LES dowel and then slipping the paper wrap down...I think that is a great idea. it is tough to get the legs lined up straight as you mention and then you worry..is that tower crooked?? I like your thrusters made out of 100 lb card stock...that looks pretty good to me! They are tiny little buggers aren't they? With my thruster quads, all four easily fit onto a penny...

Click to expand...

Yep... they're tiny all right!

I assembled the tower and skirt like normal, gluing them together with white glue, but then I fill the "trench" around the skirt with yellow glue and join the tower/skirt combo to the four sticks, taped into the jig... Then you can roll it and play with it and make sure it's 'true' (as possible) before letting the glue dry.

Later! OL JR

Did a little more work on the towers today...

First, I added the completed tower to one of the capsules. I applied some yellow wood glue to the tower legs, and centered the tower on the capsule, and turned the Service Module tube on the table between my fingers looking for any wobble in the tower tip, and then gently nudged the positioning of the tower around a bit until it was centered up nicely with no wobble. After the glue was dry, I went back and lightly 'filleted' around the legs to cover the yellow glue and smooth the joint out, with white glue.


I also started work on the second tower's cross-bracing. For this one, I'll emulate the method perfected by NJRick in his beautiful Saturn IB build threads here on the forum for the Dr. Zooch Saturn IB's. Rick's method replaces the wires entirely, using small-guage styrene rod produced by Plastruct or Evergreen, available in various shapes and sizes at most better hobby shops (or online). The pieces are individually cut and then glued in place using white glue. This isn't a PERFECT replica of the Apollo tower, but it's much closer in spirit than the stock "wire reinforced" tower... The real Apollo towers use three levels of reinforcement, "V's" and "inverted V's below the LES rocket nozzles connecting with a central donut ring in between the tower legs, then simple "Z" type reinforcements, reversed between sides as one goes around the tower... then small 45 degree angled pieces on the very bottom level just above where the legs attach to the top of the capsule for flight, going to the horizontal brace at the bottom of the "Z's". Basically due to size constraints (and the difficulty building stuff at this small of a scale, basically a BT-50 (BT-52 IIRC) Apollo capsule) at this small scale, the lower "Z" level is omitted, and just the "X" upper interlocking V's and inverted V's, along with the lower 45 degree angle braces below the horizontal crossmember. The effect is pretty dramatic though-- looks good IMHO... Of course constructing this is pretty much like doing a vasectomy on a gnat...



Still got another two sides to do after I finish this one...

Later! OL JR

looks GREAT Luke!!!

luke strawwalker said:

Did a little more work on the towers today...

First, I added the completed tower to one of the capsules. I applied some yellow wood glue to the tower legs, and centered the tower on the capsule, and turned the Service Module tube on the table between my fingers looking for any wobble in the tower tip, and then gently nudged the positioning of the tower around a bit until it was centered up nicely with no wobble. After the glue was dry, I went back and lightly 'filleted' around the legs to cover the yellow glue and smooth the joint out, with white glue.
View attachment 179563View attachment 179564

I also started work on the second tower's cross-bracing. For this one, I'll emulate the method perfected by NJRick in his beautiful Saturn IB build threads here on the forum for the Dr. Zooch Saturn IB's. Rick's method replaces the wires entirely, using small-guage styrene rod produced by Plastruct or Evergreen, available in various shapes and sizes at most better hobby shops (or online). The pieces are individually cut and then glued in place using white glue. This isn't a PERFECT replica of the Apollo tower, but it's much closer in spirit than the stock "wire reinforced" tower... The real Apollo towers use three levels of reinforcement, "V's" and "inverted V's below the LES rocket nozzles connecting with a central donut ring in between the tower legs, then simple "Z" type reinforcements, reversed between sides as one goes around the tower... then small 45 degree angled pieces on the very bottom level just above where the legs attach to the top of the capsule for flight, going to the horizontal brace at the bottom of the "Z's". Basically due to size constraints (and the difficulty building stuff at this small of a scale, basically a BT-50 (BT-52 IIRC) Apollo capsule) at this small scale, the lower "Z" level is omitted, and just the "X" upper interlocking V's and inverted V's, along with the lower 45 degree angle braces below the horizontal crossmember. The effect is pretty dramatic though-- looks good IMHO... Of course constructing this is pretty much like doing a vasectomy on a gnat...
View attachment 179565View attachment 179566
View attachment 179567

Still got another two sides to do after I finish this one...

Later! OL JR

Click to expand...

NJRick said:

looks GREAT Luke!!!

Click to expand...

Thanks... gotta go to Shiner for a few days, so won't be working on it again til next week...

Later! OL JR

awesome work, but if ant scale is "Of course constructing this is pretty much like doing a vasectomy on a gnat", I'd hate to think of your analogy for the Fliskits 1:282 scale Saturn 1b!

mjennings said:

awesome work, but if ant scale is "Of course constructing this is pretty much like doing a vasectomy on a gnat", I'd hate to think of your analogy for the Fliskits 1:282 scale Saturn 1b!

Click to expand...

Probably doing something with a gene gun... LOL Later! OL JR

mjennings...I bought the Fliskits 1b...I think its going to be my next build!

mjennings said:

awesome work, but if ant scale is "Of course constructing this is pretty much like doing a vasectomy on a gnat", I'd hate to think of your analogy for the Fliskits 1:282 scale Saturn 1b!

Click to expand...

Totally awesome stuff on this......an amazing bit of building.

Well, been incrementally getting a little more work done on the Saturns...

After doing the first one, and worrying over my "fu" with the "Zen of straightness" (as the Dr. Zooch Saturn IB kit instructions, from which these towers are derived, recommends for getting them straight on top of the capsule) I thought to myself "there's gotta be a better way..."

SO, after some thought, I came up with an idea... why not build a JIG to do the job?? So, I broke out some spare BT-50 tubing and my circle cutter tool and after a futile search for some matte board I bought last year to make centering rings, I settled on some regular corrugated cardboard. First I cut two 2-inch-long pieces of spare BT-50 for the jig-- one for the capsule nosecone to go in/on, and then the other to hold the centering rings to keep the tower rocket straight. Then I cut a ring of cardboard to fit inside the BT-50 jig. I drilled the hole by twisting a regular 1/4 inch drill bit by hand with very light pressure between my fingers to make the hole for the LES rocket motor dowel. Then I glued it in with white glue.


Next, the finished tower with the plastic rod bracing is ready to install in the jig. The capsule is placed on the second piece of BT-50. At first I thought about using some wood skewers rubber banded to the jig tubes to hold everything straight, but this didn't work too well, so I rummaged through my tube scraps and found another piece of BT-50 that had been "mooshed" into an egg shape, which I'd been using for paint tests and stuff... so I marked it lengthwise and split it so the other two jig pieces of BT-50 would slide down inside it, once it was opened up just a little bit. The tower was inserted into the centering ring, and the capsule on the other piece of tubing, and then yellow wood glue applied to the tower legs, and then everything was slid together into the slit piece of tube, and everything rubber banded in place. Once dry and removed, the tower came out pretty much spot on...


Here's some pics of the finished tower, with the capsule and tower put back on the 1" piece of BT-50 that serves as the Service Module on these rockets...




Later! OL JR

It's really amazing how much the tower starts to make a Saturn look like a Saturn...

Here's the Saturn V and Saturn I-F...


Later! OL JR

Luke these are extremely cool!!! The 1F is cool...but that Saturn V is just impressive! I am glad to see her come out of "mothballs" and back into production! I am figuring that you had them preserved in temperature and humidity controlled tents like NASA did with the 1bs back in the day.

I like your towers too! they turned out great and I agree....the tower just makes the Saturn a Saturn!
awesome work!!

luke strawwalker said:

It's really amazing how much the tower starts to make a Saturn look like a Saturn...

Here's the Saturn V and Saturn I-F...
View attachment 181022View attachment 181023View attachment 181024

Later! OL JR

Click to expand...

NJRick said:

Luke these are extremely cool!!! The 1F is cool...but that Saturn V is just impressive! I am glad to see her come out of "mothballs" and back into production! I am figuring that you had them preserved in temperature and humidity controlled tents like NASA did with the 1bs back in the day.

I like your towers too! they turned out great and I agree....the tower just makes the Saturn a Saturn!
awesome work!!

Click to expand...

Thanks... now the hard part... superdetailing the BPC and the SM...

Plus, I need to find my matte board so I can start cutting centering rings... And of course get RockSim up and running on my "new" old computer so that I can do some simulations and decide on power and balance for stability, and design the motor mounts...

Later and thanks again! OL JR

PS... humidity controlled tents?? Is that how they stored the IB's between Apollo 7 and Skylab 1??

jaw droppingly good stuff! keep the pics coming

Hi Luke...here is a picture I found on the web of the S-1vb stages in storage...

https://images.ksc.nasa.gov/photos/1971/medium/KSC-71C-5535.jpg

I have to search this old computer of mine...somewhere I stumbeld across the Nasa reports on how they stored these things...I am not sure what I did with it and this thing has crashed a few times since I saved that....

can't wait to see your BPC and your SM!!

Any progress? Awesome job so far!

foose4string said:

Any progress? Awesome job so far!

Click to expand...

I don't think you'll get your answer here on TRF...

You *MIGHT* want to try YORF.
https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=221936&postcount=4

Thanks for the heads up. Guess I missed some stuff in my absence.