Estes Air Commander Build

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mjmcneese

mjmcneese

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Hi all! This is my first post here. I've been snooping around for a while, picking up a lot of tips and learning quite a bit.

Like many others, I was in the hobby when I was younger, doing rocketry in 4-H. And now I've got a little boy (3) who is crazy about anything rockets or space, so he has given me a great excuse to get back into it. So far, we have two E2X kits, and I built him an Estes Honest John - and we've been having great fun with those. But, now I want to get into a two-stager - something I've never done before.

None of the local hobby shops had the Air Commander in stock, so we ordered from an online retailer. Apparently, this is a new kit in the Estes line-up, released just this summer. The kit is still on its way to our home. Chose the Air Commander because it's a beautiful-looking rocket, it's bigger than anything else we have, and it's a two-stage.

est3219.jpg


As I said, I've learned quite a bit from poking around here, so this will be the first build where I will be using some new techniques: just simple things like Wood Filler on the fins and body tube seams (I want to fins to have NO wood grain showing when finished, and I want the seams to be invisible), gonna try Kilz as the primer, Scotch tape for masking, beveled leading edges on the fins, etc.

I'll be posting some pics as I trudge my way through this...not to show off, but just to document the process. Please let me know of any tips or tricks that you might be willing to share. I really wanna do this one justice! Then, when it's all done I'll be sure to get some video of our first launches - assuming we make it past the first one :)
 
mjmcneese said:
Hi all! This is my first post here. I've been snooping around for a while, picking up a lot of tips and learning quite a bit.

Like many others, I was in the hobby when I was younger, doing rocketry in 4-H. And now I've got a little boy (3) who is crazy about anything rockets or space, so he has given me a great excuse to get back into it. So far, we have two E2X kits, and I built him an Estes Honest John - and we've been having great fun with those. But, now I want to get into a two-stager - something I've never done before.

None of the local hobby shops had the Air Commander in stock, so we ordered from an online retailer. Apparently, this is a new kit in the Estes line-up, released just this summer. The kit is still on its way to our home. Chose the Air Commander because it's a beautiful-looking rocket, it's bigger than anything else we have, and it's a two-stage.

est3219.jpg


As I said, I've learned quite a bit from poking around here, so this will be the first build where I will be using some new techniques: just simple things like Wood Filler on the fins and body tube seams (I want to fins to have NO wood grain showing when finished, and I want the seams to be invisible), gonna try Kilz as the primer, Scotch tape for masking, beveled leading edges on the fins, etc.
I'll be posting some pics as I trudge my way through this...not to show off, but just to document the process. Please let me know of any tips or tricks that you might be willing to share. I really wanna do this one justice! Then, when it's all done I'll be sure to get some video of our first launches - assuming we make it past the first one :)
Click to expand...

Have you conciderd practicing the new techniques on a couple of simpler projects first?

Like a Baby Bertha, Big Bertha or something with that style. Confidence in your ability to apply the techniques and achive the desired results will really help you to do justice to your Air Commander rather then just having a go at it.
 
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bradycros said:
Have you conciderd practicing the new techniques on a couple of simpler projects first?
Click to expand...

Initially, nah. Seems unnecessary.

But! What a great excuse to go get another little rocket! Might even try to find something that would make a fitting Air Commander Jr. With a similar paint scheme at all. Gotta stop by the hobby shop to get some paints for a plastic model airplane anyway.
 
This isn’t a real good choice for a first rocket build.

Eight fins to sand and align along with the airframe strakes.

One thing I highly recommend before starting your build is to go to the tools section of www.payloadbay.com and print yourself a fin marking guide/wrap for an Estes BT-55 tube with 4 fins.

I don’t know what is going wrong with the printing of Estes’ instructions but not one of the fin wraps from any of my Estes kits places the fins equidistant around the tube. I even measured the distance between the lines with a caliper and they are noticeably different in the distance between them.

One other suggestion is to go to the Apogee website and read-up on Vented Gap Staging.

The “Air Commander” model would greatly benefit from this modification though it will require you to purchase a couple of motor clips and an additional thrust ring and you will have to carefully layout the parts so as to allow for a gap. And you’ll have to drill the two holes in the airframe and the booster stage coupler.

I don’t know why Estes doesn’t design their newer two stage rocket to include this feature. It is actually easier to build and a lot simpler to prep for launch.

Being a two stage rocket that can be flown with a D12-0/D12-7 combination you’ll want a big field for launching.
 
boomtube said:
This isn’t a real good choice for a first rocket build.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Respectfully, this isn't my first rocket. This will be my third build in te last three months (lost a Hi Flier to a sticky-rod launch into a corn field 1/4 mile away, and mistakingly let my son play with a Super Neon XL until he ripped the tube). And, yeah, it's been 20 years, but I've built 20+ rockets previous, including the SR-71, Space Shuttle, Titan V, etc. I'm confident in my construction techniques...just gonna use my "maturity" to allow myself to be patient on this one.

I typically use some geometry to get a better measurement on fin placement, but I'll certainly check out the link you provided! And will definitely check out the gap staging mod.
 
Air Commander came in the mail today. Its still in the sealed package in the den. My son is quite excited.

At the recommendation of others above, we did go out Friday night and pick up another rocket...got the Phoenix bird, which has the fins drying in right now. I did spend some time on this kit...lots of sanding, filling, sanding, filling, and priming, and sanding...you get the picture. The tube came out spiral-free by lightly smearing some watered-down Wood Filler in the cracks, sanding, Krylon white primer, and more sanding.

The fins were more involved, though. There is a small piece of balsa that gets glued on the base of the leading edge. I was skeptical of the fit and robustness of the design, but the pieces have held on well to all four fins. Again, sanding, watered-down filler, and primer...I tried Kilz primer: knowing that it's a little thicker. Well, it bubbled up quite a bit, leaving pitting over most of the fins. So, an extra round of sanding, more filler, then gray Krylon primer. Much better. Looks very good, with rounded edges on the fins. No wood grain showing.

One tiff about the Phoenix Bird: it has precut slots in the BT for the fins to slide in and be glued to the motor mount. The slots were way to narrow...no way the fins would've ever slid down in there. So: I actually had to take my xacto and cut about 1/32" of each side of each slot in order to make room for the fins to slide in. It ended up working ok, but a frustrating extra step.

The only other nitpick I have about the Phoenix Bird is the nose cone. It's balsa. And while it fits in the BT just fine, it overhangs the BT when in place. I started to sand it down some but stopped when it became clear that taking off that much material was going to leave me with a misshapen nose cone. It's a cosmetic flaw that won't affect performance. But, so far, it's the only blemish that will show through when it's finished.

I'll post some pics soon. Really looking forward to getting started on the Air Commander!
 
mjmcneese said:
The only other nitpick I have about the Phoenix Bird is the nose cone. It's balsa. And while it fits in the BT just fine, it overhangs the BT when in place. I started to sand it down some but stopped when it became clear that taking off that much material was going to leave me with a misshapen nose cone. It's a cosmetic flaw that won't affect performance. But, so far, it's the only blemish that will show through when it's finished.
Click to expand...

I have found a lot of balsa nose cones on LPR models are like that. I do the same technique of using watered down EWF in the BT and fins, but when I do the BT, I have the balsa nose cone in place, and cover the entire BT and NC with EWF...then sand the whole thing as a unit. This not only fills the spirals, but matches the NC with the BT...no 'swelling' anymore. The downside is a LOT of EWF dust.

FC
 
The Air Commander is possibly my favorite of Estes new releases and now I know why--the fins are identical in shape to Centuri's '65 Centaur, which are classic Centuri fin designs. Add some strakes, stretch out the body and viola! A really nice looking rocket.

Looking forward to your build.
 
mjmcneese said:
The only other nitpick I have about the Phoenix Bird is the nose cone. It's balsa. And while it fits in the BT just fine, it overhangs the BT when in place. I started to sand it down some but stopped when it became clear that taking off that much material was going to leave me with a misshapen nose cone. It's a cosmetic flaw that won't affect performance. But, so far, it's the only blemish that will show through when it's finished.

I'll post some pics soon. Really looking forward to getting started on the Air Commander!
Click to expand...


Sanding block. Works for me. Confidence in your ability to apply the techniques and achieve the desired results really helps.

my boid 002.jpg

my boid 005.jpg
 
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bradycros said:
Sanding block. Works for me.
Click to expand...

I like! You made that out of old BT? You glue sandpaper to the block? That was my problem: the sandpaper was taking out noticeable streaks of material. I was afraid it was gonna end up looking octagonal - even by cupping the sandpaper in my hand.

The Air Commander has a plastic nose cone, so I won't get to try it out on this build.
 
FastCargo said:
I have the balsa nose cone in place, and cover the entire BT and NC with EWF...then sand the whole thing as a unit.
Click to expand...

This makes sense. I'll try that in combination with a proper sanding block, and I'm sure to get better results.

Woody, I have all intentions of picking up an Estes Fin Jig - if I could find one locally.
 
mjmcneese said:
I have all intentions of picking up an Estes Fin Jig - if I could find one locally.
Click to expand...

The method I use for aligning the fins is the alignment guide from payloadbay.com printed and mounted to two pieces of cardboard or foam board. I learned this method from others on this forum.

https://www.payloadbay.com/index.php?page=Tools&action=FINGUIDES

I mounted the printouts to foam core board with spray adhesive so they are pretty robust and I can reuse them for future builds. I removed a notch right where the fin meets the body tube so they don't get glued to the rocket :)
 
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mjmcneese said:
I like! You made that out of old BT? You glue sandpaper to the block? That was my problem: the sandpaper was taking out noticeable streaks of material. I was afraid it was gonna end up looking octagonal - even by cupping the sandpaper in my hand.

The Air Commander has a plastic nose cone, so I won't get to try it out on this build.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's made of compatable BT and a kraft stick for a handle. Spray adhesive is used on the sandpaper to make it replaceable.
 
I've got an Air Commander that my girlfriend bought for me. Haven't started it yet but it looks really cool and should definitely rip on the 24mm motors.:wink:

As for the recovery, I won't be using the provided 18 inch chute but a 12 inch chute or maybe a large streamer.

According to the package, this rocket will probably hit about 2,250 feet with the D12-0/D12-7 motor combo.:surprised:
 
Woody, I have all intentions of picking up an Estes Fin Jig - if I could find one locally.

If you need to order online, try acsupplyco.com
Shipping is straight, but if you spend over a benny, it's free.
It's the cheapest place I can find online to order from, with a alignment jig at 12 georgies, even if it's the only item you order, it's probably cheaper with shipping than you can find locally.
For example: I was going through my rockets tonight and replacing chutes. 12" chutes from Estes purchased locally back 15 years ago was 3.59 each and they are unassembled with no snap swivel. From AC they are .96 and they include the snap swivel! Just to go show you how local hobby shops mark up stuff.
Everything there is advertised 40% off MSLP.
Next best place is Hobbylinc.com
It's a shame I have to order online, but the nearest hobby shop is an hour and half drive, then home again. Price of gas, shipping is far cheaper...I can wait for the delivery to my door step.
I use to be able to by stuff at wally world, kmart, meijer, etc. only 12 miles away. But it's a college town and due to "Huffing" no one sells models, glues and some don't even carry spray paint anymore.
Picked up a bunch of primer at Kmart last week on 1/2 price clearance. Asked why and they said they are discontinuing spray paints because the liability insurance went 10 fold on those items due to "Huffing" occurances in the area.
They even asked this old grey haired man for my birth date, no one can buy it under 18! What's next? Show your ID before you can gas your truck?
Click to expand...
 
Well, at Wal-Mart, you have to be 18 to purchase spray paint, super glue, etc. Although I will say I haven't been asked to show proof of age for years.

I know it's due to huffing concerns but I can't really imagine WHY anyone would want to inhale the stuff, it reeks BIGTIME!!!
 
Speaking of paint, I've selected the paints that I'll be using on the AC (Air Commander). The white will be Krylon Gloss White. The Gold color is a weathered bronze metallic from Valspar. And the gray on stage2 and the nose cone will be a flat charcoal Krylon. I think the mix of flat and gloss will give a good sense of dimension.

Had a very long day of work so I made no progress on the final painting on the Phoenix Bird...the AC is still in the original packaging. My son is so anxious.
 
Started the build tonight.

Here's the original packaging, just in case anyone wondered what it looks like.
IMG_0740.jpg


And the contents of the kit all sprawled out (on the kitchen bar counter - sorry Wifey - still haven't finished my plastic 1/48 B-25J in the basement, so the counter it is).
IMG_0741.jpg

Plastic nose cone. Waterslide decals. Balsa fins...not real thrilled with the 2nd stage material...more on that later. The main BT and the stage 2 BT are both brown wax-coated, and the top section under the nose cone is white. Blue and white checkered parachute. Sturdy shock cord...that seems a bit short, though.

First order of business was reading through the instructions. Everything seems to be in order, and makes sense to me. Basically, the set order is to completely build the 2nd stage portion, then to move on to starting on the main rocket. I modified that order to minimize repeating steps. So, sanded down the balsa sheets, then carefully X-acto'd them out of the sheet. The sheet for the 2nd stage fins is a very rough cut. Even after sanding with 400 grit, they were still rougher than the stage 1 sheet that had not yet been sanded. You can also maybe note from the pics that the sheet is half yellow, half red. Obviously, I'll take care when sanding and handling the fins. But it makes me a bit nervous, nonetheless. Anyway, ganged the fin pieces up and sanded the edges smooth.

Both sets of fins come in two pieces. Fortunately I had some practice on this from the Phoenix Bird build. Put a thin coat of yellow glue on all the contacting edges, which sat for a minute or so. Then skimmed with another light coat of yellow glue and put them together. Used my small square to make certain all is plumb and level. Did my best, as one of the fins from stage two seemed about 1mm shorter than the rest.
IMG_0744.jpg

(that's a "before" pic)

Did some extra sanding on the stack from the base edge to match them up better. Happy with my work, but not thrilled that there was a size difference from the laser-cut sheet. Never experienced that before.

While those were drying, I assembled both engine mounts. All pieces fit good and tight.

After two hours I lost patience and mixed a little Wood Filler with a dash of water to paint onto the fins. Still working on my water:fill ratio. Seemed to go on a little thick. But, I'm planning on sanding and doing another coat of fill. Put a thinner coat of fill all over the brown tubes, and just hit the seam of the white BT.

So, I'll sand everything tomorrow. Probably another coat of fill on the fins. Might hit the BT's with a first coat of primer to see if the seams will be invisible. So far, so good.
IMG_0748.jpg
 
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Spent the day today sanding and sanding some more. Rounded the leading edges if the fins...all 8 of them...and they turned out nicely. Made one boo-boo, though. The very tip of the leading edge should not have been rounded because it has to butt up to the 15"long hardwood strip that lies in front of the fin. I think I will glue everything up on the BT as close as I can get it, and glop on some wood filler and sand it to shape.

My wife went to Target and picked up a sheet of foam core - I'll be trying the template method of aligning the fins. One more round of sanding the fins, then I'll start assembling to the BT's.

Phoenix Bird got it's last coats of color today, and the decals are on. Turned out great! Te fins look like plastic, with the black gloss. No seams in the BT. Decals went on OK, but I prefer the waterside. The only blemish, as I mentioned before is the balsa nose cone-to- BT transition. Otherwise, it's my finest build yet. If the weather holds, we will give her a maiden flight tomorrow evening. Pics of Phoenix Bird will be coming soon.
 
Ok, now it's question time.

So, I printed out the payload.com templates for the Air Commander's fins. Got it glued onto some foamcore, and cut it all out with an X-Acto. Now, how do I keep it all squared up?

When I put the pieces in the template dry, they seem to wanna sit cock-eyed, and not very plumb. Probably hard to see from this pic, but...
fintemplate.JPG

...guess I'm not real comfortable with this method. Either I'm skipping a step, or I've already done something wrong?
 
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mjmcneese said:
Ok, now it's question time.

So, I printed out the payload.com templates for the Air Commander's fins. Got it glued onto some foamcore, and cut it all out with an X-Acto. Now, how do I keep it all squared up?

When I put the pieces in the template dry, they seem to wanna sit cock-eyed, and not very plumb. Probably hard to see from this pic, but...
mail

...guess I'm not real comfortable with this method. Either I'm skipping a step, or I've already done something wrong?
Click to expand...


I don't see any picture attached to your post. That makes it harder to see then you think.
 
URL for pic corrected - thanks for catching that! I was simply having a problem using the foamcore'd templates from payload.com. I dry fit the BT and the fins in there and they were not even close to being square and plumb. So, I uses the supplied tube wrap guide from the Estes instruction manual, and glued the fins on using those marks. Then, after I was satisfied with how it looked by eyeing it, I inserted the assembly into the payload.com templates to check it all. With the glue still workable, I was able to keep the fins from spinning out of square.

Lesson learned: next time I will make the templates out of 1/4" plywood and I will cut out the templates with a jigsaw. Or I'll get the Estes Fin Jig.

I also did the filletting on the fins after they dried for a couple hours. The assembly looks awesome so far. The fins are silky smooth. The filleting looks very uniform. And all of the fins are as square and plumb as any rocket I've done.
btfins.JPG
stage2fins.JPG


Next on the list is the 15" long hardwood strips that line the BT above each fin. Those pieces are not exactly arrow-straight. So, as of right now I'm planning on gluing them on one at a time, using a few rubber bands to hold the strips straight up and down. ER, maybe masking tape would be more stable?
strip.JPG


You might also note that I've left the hardwood strips all square - I did not round the edges as I did with the fins. The hardwood is not gonna be near as workable. The 400 grit I've been using would certainly make that a chore. So, I can leave them, and have an awkward edge where the strip meets up with the fin? Or I can sand with 200 grit? Or maybe file them round? I'm not opposed to rounding them before they're glued onto the BT...just not sure of the best way to do that. It's kinda intimidating trying to get all 15" of those strips to have a uniform rounded edge.

Another thing I've become quite please about: the standard painting scheme for this rocket will require NO masking! While I'm quite confident in my masking skills (Tamiya 6mm is a God-send!), I'm much happier to just paint a whole chunk of the rocket one color. Phew!

So far, all of the instructions have made perfect sense. I've not strayed from the order of assembly except to prep and assemble the fins for both the 2nd stage and the main BT at the same time.
 
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mjmcneese said:
Ok, now it's question time.

So, I printed out the payload.com templates for the Air Commander's fins. Got it glued onto some foamcore, and cut it all out with an X-Acto. Now, how do I keep it all squared up?

When I put the pieces in the template dry, they seem to wanna sit cock-eyed, and not very plumb. Probably hard to see from this pic, but...
fintemplate.JPG

...guess I'm not real comfortable with this method. Either I'm skipping a step, or I've already done something wrong?
Click to expand...

Your cuts through the foam board won't be perfectly square to the surface so the fins won't be straight if you only used one template. It seems that what you thought I did was use the thickness of the foam board to get the alignment. I actually only used foam board so that I could keep the templates around to reuse in the future. Others just use a piece of cardboard like from a cereal box.

To get everything square with that method you need to have 2 templates parallel to each other. The fins and body tube pass through both planes to get aligned. Then the templates need to be on a flat surface like your countertop so they are aligned with each other.

If you think about it, the template is a plane that is 2 dimensions. So 2 planes spaced apart via a 3rd dimension gives you the 3 dimensional alignment.

If that makes any sense... :eyepop:

Also for aligning the strips I would use a piece of angle iron or even a piece along each side with the wood wedged in the middle. I have a piece of aluminum L bracket that I picked up at the hardware store for drawing fin lines. Cost a few bucks maybe.
 
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The picture of the fin guide is totally misleading. Yes, you are correct, two guides are the way to go...And that's what I did. I had two guides, one for the 2nd stage and one for the main BT, and I used both. Not sure why I selected the pic of the single fin guide.

Perhaps because the 2nd stage assembly was so short, there was very little room to stabilize everything. I dunno? But, I got it to work for me by allowing the glue to set for a couple mins, then slide it into the guide to square it all up. Prolly doesn't make sense, but it worked well.

I do happen to have some scrap piece of aluminum angle somewhere around here. I'll try to dig that out.
 
Today I took a couple breaks from work to put the hardwood strips on. It was a lot quicker and easier than I thought it would be.

I used the foamcore fin guides to help me position the strips. That got them positioned in two spots. I used masking tape to secure them in a couple other spots where the wood wiggled out of plumb according to my mini carpenters square. I did one at a time so that I could wrap the tape around the entirety of the BT to get a good hold.

Gonna let them dry for a while, then I'll fill the transition between the strips and the fins with wood fill. Then I'll fillet them. Still not sure if I should round the edges of the strips?
 
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mjmcneese said:
The picture of the fin guide is totally misleading. Yes, you are correct, two guides are the way to go...And that's what I did. I had two guides, one for the 2nd stage and one for the main BT, and I used both. Not sure why I selected the pic of the single fin guide.
Click to expand...

Each fin set requires two guides... So if you glued up both stages at the same time, you'd need four templates ;)

Each fin must pass through 2 aligning planes.
 

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