Tracking systems

mikec said:

With this or any tracking solution you should plan on losing the signal after landing unless your launch area is very flat.

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You'll also lose it if you're transmitting parallel to the surface of the Black Rock desert lakebed, even it it's line of sight. I don't understand the physics of why, but it has happened with each of several brands of radios I have tested out there. It's as if that gypsum just sucks radio signals down into the mud or something.

Website says 6mi for the 900 system. I'd say here in the midwest I'd get about 3mi. Guessing.

Ok so I'll get a good read on it as long as it's in the air once it hits dirt you usually lose signal? The just go to last signal captured and you should theoretically be close. Look like the BRB900 RX unit displays the Lat/Lon of the rocket so them do most people use a separate device to enter the coordinates into a map program so you am walk to it, or how does that work?

Something to note is that any tracking system isn't guaranteed to walk you right to your rocket. Once it lands, you'll often lose the signal, but you usually have an idea of a general direction.

So, you move that direction and work until you regain the signal.

There's an "art" to tracking. Attenuators can help, but there are tricks you can do to use your body, the ground, and antenna polarization to help, as well.

Whatever you buy, fly it in rockets you're likely to see the whole way, and practice. Have a friend go hide your transmitter, and you go find it. Put a tracker in a friend's rocket, and go find it.

-Kevin

I have 3 different systems.

1) Com Spec - Fantastic system. It uses tones. You point the antenna toward in a direction and the sound of tone helps you determine which direction the rocket is in. It is like metal detecting. The stronger the tone, the more likely the rocket is in that direction. It does loose the rocket at times after landing, but you walk in the last direction and you will find it by picking up the tone again. It does require some practice. I put it on my son and had him walk around a park and "hide".

2) Eagle Tree Systems: It is GPS based and sends telemetery data back to a computer. You typ in the last GPS data and go to that location and usually, you will pick up the signal. It is not fool proof, but it is pretty good. You do loose signal in the trees and on the ground.

3) Garmin Astro: Great system, but as other have said, it is for medium to large rockets. I use mine in 4 inch and larger. It is as close to a fool proof system. I have never lost lock (except during flight), but I have heard horror stories. I have 10-12 flights. I even maintain signal on the ground, but the furthest distance I have tested in 1 to 1.25 miles.

If I buy another GPS based system, it will be one integrated with with a altimeter.

Chuck

bigredbee said:

FCC regs don't allow flying telephones.

Greg

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You wouldn't happen to have a link to that FCC ruling would you?
I know they aren't allowed to be enabled on Airlines, but why would the FCC
care if you stuck a cellphone in a model rocket?

So with RF systems, there's a chance you can loose a signal once the rocket lands, plus you need to walk around with an antenna. With GPS you not only know the general direction, you know exactly where the rocket is. Some here have said that the satellite lock has been "lost" after the rocket launched. You'd think that if the rocket was intact that a lock would be regained once it landed. For fun, I've stuck my BRB transmitter in some pretty thick brush (in a payload section) down in a steep valley and it was still communicating with 5 satellites. Sure, no system is fool-proof, but for the purpose of finding a rocket in a reasonable fashion within 5 miles, I don't see how the comparison is even close.

Alby said:

You wouldn't happen to have a link to that FCC ruling would you?
I know they aren't allowed to be enabled on Airlines, but why would the FCC
care if you stuck a cellphone in a model rocket?

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https://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=203924&postcount=6

Highpowerrocketyahoo said:

Ok so I'll get a good read on it as long as it's in the air once it hits dirt you usually lose signal? The just go to last signal captured and you should theoretically be close. Look like the BRB900 RX unit displays the Lat/Lon of the rocket so them do most people use a separate device to enter the coordinates into a map program so you am walk to it, or how does that work?

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Yes, I use my iPhone for walking to the last coordinates given by a Telemetrum. Some systems like the Garmin have a GPS on the ground station too, so that you can get an updated position when you re-acquire radio signal when you're out in the field.

WillMarchant said:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=203924&postcount=6

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The justification for the law is that cell phone companies are counting on each phone being in the line of sight of just a few towers, since the phones are constantly talking with the towers to establish a connection in each "cell" or radio coverage zone. Those who fly their phones could be taking up bandwidth for dozens of cell phone towers at the same time. I don't know that you could ever get enough phones in the air to cause the system to break down this way, but you never know what people will come up with, which is why they put restrictions on the radio spectrum ahead of time.

WillMarchant said:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=203924&postcount=6

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Will:

Thanks. All I've got to say is, "The Government, Blah" :hot:




§ 22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.

Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off. The following notice must be posted on or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:

“The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations.”

Something else to factor in to GPS versus RDF....

Anything that's sending you GPS packets is dependent upon you getting a "clean" packet -- no interference, as well as the transmitting device having a good lock.

When it works, it works very well. When it doesn't, and you don't have RDF capability, well, it's ugly. It's akin to having your kid locked in a basement somewhere, and you need them to read the address off of the house, so you can go unlock the basement door to let them out....but they can't get to the house number.

With something like the Bee Line GPS, if it can't get a GPS lock, or the packets are getting garbled, you can still use RDF to track the packets. Because of the bursty nature of APRS packets, it's a bit tougher than regular RDF, but it's still possible. Ditto the Telemetrum, as it's also using the Ham bands.

With a Garmin Astro, no lock, or inteference of some sort, and you're SOL as you lose the ability to do RDF.

Flexibility is a good thing in my book.

-Kevin

+1 for the Walston & Comspec trackers; simple, cheap & effective. I use a Com spec base antenna on a Kenwood multiband radio, which lets me see the signal strength. Three-tracker set up was less than $400.

I've also been using the GPS celtrackers fom China, about $45, plus a sim card($20) which is good for a few hundred text messages. The unit will send you a text of its GPS coordinates, which I copy & paste into a visualizer app on my iPhone. It will guide you like a heads up display, right to your rocket.

The last rocket's location that I used this on, "SABOT" can be seen on the screen, with a bearing, elevation and distance to target. You can also copy & paste it into google earth and it will show you the satelite image of you and the path to your rocket. The app is called "Spyglass", and I highly recommend it, if you have access to a smartphone.

Cheers,

PT

Blackfly said:

I've also been using the GPS celtrackers fom China, about $45, plus a sim card($20) which is good for a few hundred text messages.

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I have one of these. It would work great if there was adequate cell coverage at our launch site. We have enough signal for cell phones to call and text, but this celltracker must not have a strong enough radio to work there.

-Chuck

Blackfly said:

I've also been using the GPS celtrackers fom China, about $45, plus a sim card($20) which is good for a few hundred text messages. The unit will send you a text of its GPS coordinates, which I copy & paste into a visualizer app on my iPhone. It will guide you like a heads up display, right to your rocket.

Click to expand...

Do you have a recommended GPS Celtracker device and/or a weblink
of who sells it for $45?

Thanks,

troj said:

Something else to factor in to GPS versus RDF....

Anything that's sending you GPS packets is dependent upon you getting a "clean" packet -- no interference, as well as the transmitting device having a good lock.

When it works, it works very well. When it doesn't, and you don't have RDF capability, well, it's ugly. It's akin to having your kid locked in a basement somewhere, and you need them to read the address off of the house, so you can go unlock the basement door to let them out....but they can't get to the house number.

With something like the Bee Line GPS, if it can't get a GPS lock, or the packets are getting garbled, you can still use RDF to track the packets. Because of the bursty nature of APRS packets, it's a bit tougher than regular RDF, but it's still possible. Ditto the Telemetrum, as it's also using the Ham bands.

With a Garmin Astro, no lock, or inteference of some sort, and you're SOL as you lose the ability to do RDF.

Flexibility is a good thing in my book.

-Kevin

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I agree! Some days locking the kids in the basement docent sound so bad lol ;-) so some systems like the BRB can do RF as well as GPS? Thats way kewl! I have an iPhone so I should be able to find an app that I can type the Lat/Lon from the BRB screen into and then walk it in....or was there another piece of equipment that people use for this....I have to say at this time I'm kinda leaning that way.

Blackfly said:

+1 for the Walston & Comspec trackers; simple, cheap & effective. I use a Com spec base antenna on a Kenwood multiband radio, which lets me see the signal strength. Three-tracker set up was less than $400.

I've also been using the GPS celtrackers fom China, about $45, plus a sim card($20) which is good for a few hundred text messages. The unit will send you a text of its GPS coordinates, which I copy & paste into a visualizer app on my iPhone. It will guide you like a heads up display, right to your rocket.

The last rocket's location that I used this on, "SABOT" can be seen on the screen, with a bearing, elevation and distance to target. You can also copy & paste it into google earth and it will show you the satelite image of you and the path to your rocket. The app is called "Spyglass", and I highly recommend it, if you have access to a smartphone.

Cheers,

PT

Click to expand...

Which app do you use?

Ha! Nevermind that's what i get for not reading first lol

Highpowerrocketyahoo said:

Iso some systems like the BRB can do RF as well as GPS? Thats way kewl! I have an iPhone so I should be able to find an app that I can type the Lat/Lon from the BRB screen into and then walk it in....or was there another piece of equipment that people use for this....I have to say at this time I'm kinda leaning that way.

Click to expand...

The BeeLine GPS transmits, regardless of whether or not it has GPS lock. Because of this, it's always talking, and you can use that for standard RDF.

The Telemetrum will do the same, because even if it doesn't have GPS lock, it's transmitting telemetry data.

Any transmitter, as long as you have a receiver and an appropriate Yagi, can be used for RDF. It's just easier with a beacon that's designed for RDF, as it transmits a "pure tone" that helps get direction more readily than a "packet" that sounds like static.

-Kevin

Blackfly said:

+1 for the Walston & Comspec trackers; simple, cheap & effective. I use a Com spec base antenna on a Kenwood multiband radio, which lets me see the signal strength. Three-tracker set up was less than $400.

I've also been using the GPS celtrackers fom China, about $45, plus a sim card($20) which is good for a few hundred text messages. The unit will send you a text of its GPS coordinates, which I copy & paste into a visualizer app on my iPhone. It will guide you like a heads up display, right to your rocket.

The last rocket's location that I used this on, "SABOT" can be seen on the screen, with a bearing, elevation and distance to target. You can also copy & paste it into google earth and it will show you the satelite image of you and the path to your rocket. The app is called "Spyglass", and I highly recommend it, if you have access to a smartphone.

Cheers,

PT

Click to expand...

Do I need a wireless connection for spyglass or can I use it in the field "offline" ? I just downloaded it looks really kewl looks like I should be able to enter the location info from tracker and walk to it.

troj said:

The Telemetrum will do the same, because even if it doesn't have GPS lock, it's transmitting telemetry data.

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I think the Telemetrum sends tones in between the telemetry after it lands for easier RDF.

In theory you could use the "received signal strength indicator" (RSSI) with a BRB900 or other 900 MHz system, along with a directional antenna, to do RDF, even if the signal was too weak to decode. How well that would work in practice I'm not sure, and I don't think the stock BRB900 can display the RSSI value. (I've been playing with a homebrew system using the same radio modules.)

Blackfly said:

I use a Com spec base antenna on a Kenwood multiband radio, which lets me see the signal strength.

Click to expand...

Which Kenwood are you using? TH-F6A?

troj said:

With a Garmin Astro, no lock, or inteference of some sort, and you're SOL as you lose the ability to do RDF.

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Which is exactly why my father in-law instructs his hunting dogs not to chase anything down a carbon-fiber burrow!

I see what you're saying troj. Does anyone know exactly why/how packets get garbled? What's causing the interference all of sudden if the packets were fine when the rocket was on the pad? My only point is that in hilly terrain (in which I've yet to have any problems getting a lock at any time), I'd much rather risk a packet problem with a GPS transmitter compared to losing an RF signal and the rocket was completely out of sight.

Murphy is great at garbling packets. The GPS is my first choice. Though, if I didn't have that I'd use the L&L system with no fear of losing a rocket. You just need a rocket bloodhound. The flyer that owns the L&L setup is one. 4 days no signal. We went to a high point on a mesa that overlooked a very serpentine set of canyons. He spent 10 minutes doing the antenna waving dance and heard a singular weak blip. 2 hours later we found the rocket. It was truly amazing. The other nice thing about the L&L setup is battery life.

Edward

AlphaHybrids said:

Murphy is great at garbling packets. The GPS is my first choice. Though, if I didn't have that I'd use the L&L system with no fear of losing a rocket. You just need a rocket bloodhound. The flyer that owns the L&L setup is one. 4 days no signal. We went to a high point on a mesa that overlooked a very serpentine set of canyons. He spent 10 minutes doing the antenna waving dance and heard a singular weak blip. 2 hours later we found the rocket. It was truly amazing. The other nice thing about the L&L setup is battery life.

Edward

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Who sells the L&L systems?

L&L: https://www.radiotracking.com/index.html

Com-Spec: https://www.com-spec.com/

cwbullet said:

L&L: https://www.radiotracking.com/index.html

Com-Spec: https://www.com-spec.com/

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Assuming you aren't made of money, what is the cheap way of
Radio Tracking?

I assume building a transmitter that goes "beep, beep, beep" on a
frequency that can be detected a few miles away can't be that hard.
And then building a receiver with a meter that moves as you get closer
or farther away can't be that hard, right?


Really, $155 for a transmitter from L&L and $500 for a receiver? There
must be a cheaper homebrew option.

I went to L&L website and all I saw was marine controls and stuff. Am I at the right site?

I bought a comspec receiver and had him make transmitters for me. They work well. Up to 2 miles so far (on the ground). I have not lost contact yet.

I've found in rocketry that the cheap way tends to be the more expensive route. Make something for considerably less than you can buy it for (and don't count your labor). Fly rocket and have it malfunction, destroying or losing rocket. Get frustrated. Repeat. Realize you've spent as much as if you didn't do it yourself. End up spending twice as much and lost a few rockets in the process.

Edward