When is a model rocket no longer a model?

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I'm new to paper tube rockets but enjoy watching YouTube videos of high power rockets. But I was wondering, when is a "model" rocket not considered a "model" anymore? I've seen some massive rockets launched with high tech electronics... Is it the fact that it has no payload?

Rockets and Rocket motors, each have thier own classifications...

so, a model rocket(now class 1), is defined in 14 CFR 101. by the FAA.(basicly less than 1500grams with motor, and less than 125grams of propellant.)
as you can see has some motor requirements attached.....
upper limits of the highpower/amature rockets, are more defined in motor energy-since at that level clearly defines the type of vehicle(what i read says that anyway...) so they dont really care about vehicle weight between class 2 and 3.

Class 2 FAA rockets constitue MOST high power rockets... this is Under P motors bassicly any motor that will safely fly 1501grams total rocket weight, and any rocket that an o motor will fly (40,000ns of energy)... Class 3, is P motor and above....

motors, are *mainly* classified as hpr for associative classing within the hobby. there are some/government that has an hpr deffinition for motors as well.
Some make the line at the 125 gram rule, regarless of delivered isp (impulse or energy) (my state law does it this way, which just means they follow the faa standard.)
Soo... there are a narrow band of motors such as the Aerotech H180, which can be flown as a FAA CLASS1 rocket. But are in general terms considered high power motors...

TRA and NRA follow the NFPA 1127 deffinition of high power... TRA and NAR both have on thier websites (from what i remember) definitions of HPR motors... I think tra has 14cfr101 as well(if i remember correctly, if not it should...)

Payload bays and electronics, even exist in the model rockets... we use thim hin High power, so that we have reliability more than anyting... I wish we had some real statistics that could show how much realiability we have now over 10 years ago because of the advancement and availablity of reliable equipment.
It just works that good.... and with some of the equipment barely larger than a quater.. why not fly it on a D motor...right???
 
Very informative, thanks.

Makes more sense now. I was watching things on YouTube with K and N motors and thinking "hmmm... not really a model..."

Nooope....
But essentialy no different either, but at the same time a lot different :confused2: confused...

i flew "model rockets" for a LONG time, since i was 3 with my dad... I was good at it... when my wife got me into HPR at 28, I realized, its all ruled by the same theory as model rockets, just with a different perspective as relates to the engineering. A few different standard practices you dont see in the model rocket world, like through wall fins, and attaching your shock cord to the motor mount instead of tri-fold paper.. Use cellulouse instead of paper wadding... Kevlar and nylon, instead of elastic band...

I will add this, when you get to the L3(tra or Nar classification) which is M- or bigger, we require electronics onboard. Back to the reliablity issue..... And, arent a requirement up to L class rockets... (but should be used IMO...)
 
i flew "model rockets" for a LONG time, since i was 3 with my dad... I was good at it... when my wife got me into HPR at 28,

Well there's something I thought I'd never see. Your wife got you into HPR? Really?

That has to be a one-of-a-kind story. You should write it up for Sport Rocketry.
 
The definition of "model rocket" is a bit tricky. Even the high power stuff is technically considered model rocketry. Several years ago Steve Eves launched a beautiful 1/10th scale Saturn V. Even at 36 feet tall and 1,600 pounds it was considered a model rocket.
 
Zeus-cat is exactly right. All hobby rockets are model rockets. It has as much to do with their purpose as it does their size or their installed impulse. The ARCAS and the Black Brant IV sounding rockets were both smaller in length and diameter than many mid-power hobby rockets. The short-lived but much respected company Enerjet produced commercial research rockets that were indistinguishable from hobby rockets in terms of size, design concepts, basic materials and construction techniques. Regarding the example that has been mentioned a few times already, Steve Eve's immense and record-breaking 1:10 scale Saturn V has always been referred to by the publicity literature, press releases, certifying agencies and organizations and most tellingly, by the creator/builder himself as a "model rocket."
 
use?

all amateur rocketeers do not build models though.

Specifically i think the gofast launch to space. it was a hobby group of people sponsored by go fast sports among others. The rocket was made by amateurs and the motor was as well.

the difference is in the point of it. i build model rockets to watch them go up and know that i built strongly enough. other people build for the modeling and the attention to detail. some build to make crazy designs work. but the gofast launch was to prove a legitimate point that nonprofessionals could launch a vehicle past the karman line into space.
 
I think it comes down to a sanity check lol! My limit would be if my reloads are costing more than my mortgage payment... Kind of like my other hobby, RC aircraft. Started flying a single engine turbine. Got to looking at a new A10 warthog. With the kit, two turbines, servos, landing gear and all the accessories....20K! That's just insane. I'm sticking with the sport jet.
 
Actually, the CSXT project involved quite a few professionals from the jet propulsion and aeronautics fields, among others. As I understand it, the goal was to reach space with a completely privately-funded rocket (no government funding). All hobby rockets are 100% privately-funded, but not all 100% privately-funded rockets are hobby rockets. University research rockets may not have funding from any government source, but they are neither hobby rockets nor are they amateur rockets. Your larger point about "intended use" is quite right in my opinion.

One common way of looking at it is that "model rockets" are rockets that are built and flown in conformance with national model rocketry organization (e.g., NAR, TRA, CAR, UKRA, etc.) safety codes. Tripoli Rocketry Association has two safety codes, one for high power rockets and one for "research rockets" (as specifically defined in the TRA code); the (US) National Association of Rocketry has three: the Model Rocket Safety Code, the High Power Rocket Safety Code, and the Radio-Control Rocket Glider Safety Code. As mentioned, other societies have their own published safety codes. While all of these codes contain certain general principles of acceptable construction, rockets whose construction is consistent with these principles are not uniquely model rockets. It is as much a matter of how they are launched, and under what rules and official sanctioning.

(Side note: As I understand it, "amateur rocketry" is in fact a type of hobby rocketry that is done outside of the self-imposed constraints of model rocketry. There is a safety code that that has been published by the Amateur Rocketry Society of America, but compliance is entirely voluntary, I believe.)
 
Makes more sense now. I was watching things on YouTube with K and N motors and thinking "hmmm... not really a model..."

It is real easy to say that and lump "K" and "N" motors together, but then you realize that an "N" is roughly 8 times the impulse of a "K".

I think the guidelines mentioned above are a good break- "G" and under is model rocketry, "H" and above is something beyond model rocketry.
 
When is a model rocket no longer a model?

When it's aloft! :rofl:

G.D.
 
I suppose in the end it depends on who you talk to. I'd imagine many builders of high power rockets feel belittled if you call their work a model!
Obviously, I wouldn't, though. If I built a 1/4 scale Nike-Tomahawk with all of the details, for instance, I would be really concerned if it was called something other than a scale model rocket.

"Model rockets" don't have any legal or regulatory definition, but high power rockets do. Consequently anything that isn't a high power rocket is commonly referred to (in our hobby of model rocketry) as a "model rocket." But that's just one way to slice up our small numbers and put us into even smaller, ever more exclusive and ever less significant groups. The strength of this hobby isn't derived from the activities of one small segment of it that is arbitrarily defined by motor impulse; it flows from the collective impact of all of us together.

https://bit.ly/iKeos5
 
I was just making the point that they're REALLY big compared to my paper rockets and bigger than some research and military rockets I'm sure. :)

I still think "model" comes from the 60's when kids were trying to emulate the us space program with the estes stuff.... thats my thought train of it anyway... people who wanted BIGGER rockets, probably downplayed them and sayd they are just "model rockets" instead of insiting fear by HIGHPOWER rockets......(to a large vast of people who were none the wiser..) and when it got tooo big for that..... they called it amature...

Look at the Loki and Viper sounding rockets..... there are "bigger" amature rockets....(impulse wise)
 
I still think "model" comes from the 60's when kids were trying to emulate the us space program with the estes stuff.... thats my thought train of it anyway... people who wanted BIGGER rockets, probably downplayed them and sayd they are just "model rockets" instead of insiting fear by HIGHPOWER rockets......(to a large vast of people who were none the wiser..) and when it got tooo big for that..... they called it amature...

Look at the Loki and Viper sounding rockets..... there are "bigger" amature rockets....(impulse wise)
Back in the 1960s there weren't any commercially-made high power motors that were for sale to the general public, so there weren't any big hobby rockets. An Estes Saturn V was a HUGE rocket, quite possibly the biggest production hobby rocket at that time. At the end of the decade FSI and a few other companies were just starting to make E and F motors (in very tiny quantities, and they weren't sold anywhere yet) and in 1970 Estes came out with the D13, but the notion that there was or should be different segments of the hobby based on, of all things, motor impulse, just didn't exist yet. Everyone built rockets for all of the motors that were available at the time. The most popular big, powerful motor was the Estes B14. When people wanted more than 10 Newton-seconds of impulse, they clustered together three or four C motors. If there was any notion of different groups in the hobby, they had to do with contest event specialties. Contest rocketry was the really big thing then and was regarded as the cutting edge of the hobby. There was no concept of "high power rocketry" yet; that didn't develop until some 10+ years later. The hobby was unitary at the time, without the sharp divisions that developed later; everyone who was involved called it "model rocketry." There was also no connotation of it being a "kiddie" thing; model rocketry was generally regarded as being a pretty sophisticated, "grown-up," scientific and technical pursuit. I don't have to speculate or theorize about this. I was there, and I remember.
 
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I'm new to paper tube rockets but enjoy watching YouTube videos of high power rockets. But I was wondering, when is a "model" rocket not considered a "model" anymore? I've seen some massive rockets launched with high tech electronics... Is it the fact that it has no payload?

You see, if it gets too heavy, it can no longer model...
 
I think that the major dividing line between model and professional-style rockets is that the professional rockets have a much larger percentage of their liftoff mass as propellant. Model rockets (including HPR) have a very small percentage of their liftoff mass as propellant.
 
When is a model rocket no longer a model?

When a faulty launch/recovery reduces it to a pile of scrap.

But seriously folks; if it can fall from the sky and cause serious injury (Death?) or damage, it no longer qualifies as a model.

Or, if the motor in it has more power than the vehicle used to transport it to the launch site, it no longer qualifies as a model.

Or, if the onboard electronics are more complicated than what went into the original Mercury capsule, it no longer qualifies as a model.
 
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