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Kinesthesia

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I have decided to get into model rocketry as an activity to share with my young son.

I just bought my first rocket today, an Estes Comanche 3. I have also ordered a few other rockets for us to play around with. I'm wondering about color and rocket visibility.

I'm tempted to paint my Comanche black instead of the suggested color thinking it will be easier to see against the sky, is this a reasonable assumption ?
 
If it's a high flying rocket you might consider high visibility paint aka neon colors. Rustoleum has a few different colors you can choose from. I picked up, yellow, orange and green and they also have pink, but not into pink. The paint goes on nice, but is flat as far as finish. Also use a bright parachute...should help you pick it up in the sky... I think I would stay away from black...check Home Depot for the paint.
 
Welcome!

The Com-3 is a tall order for your first rocket. I had one once but never launched it D12-0, C6-0, C6-7. That would take it very high and you would need a bunch of real estate and a crack tracking crew. That doesn't mean you could not launch it single stage first and then later two stage until you gain experience and confidence.

And yes, black is easy to track, especially against a cloudy sky.
 
Ah, two replies and there is already a disagreement about the color. We keep it civil for the most part. :handshake:
 
I had the same thought when I built the C3, so I painted it very bright. Problem was, when flying with the full compliment of motors, it wouldn't matter what color it was, it was too high to see.
 
You also might consider a mylar streamer. If you buy them they are expensive as all get-out, but you can make one. Make the streamer by having one side mylar and the other side a black fabric like rip-stop nylon or something. The fabric strengthen the streamer, plus it will "flutter" between the shinny mylar and the black fabric making it really to see. In theory you should be able to see a pretty small rocket 2-3 miles up with this and it sounds like you aren't going any where near that so this would be quite noticeable :p
 
judo said:
Ah, two replies and there is already a disagreement about the color. We keep it civil for the most part. :handshake:
Click to expand...

I agree black works well on cloudy skies, but when it's on the ground I feel that a neon or bright color would make it easier to locate:confused2:
 
Le Aeronautical said:
You also might consider a mylar streamer. If you buy them they are expensive as all get-out, but you can make one. Make the streamer by having one side mylar and the other side a black fabric like rip-stop nylon or something. The fabric strengthen the streamer, plus it will "flutter" between the shinny mylar and the black fabric making it really to see. In theory you should be able to see a pretty small rocket 2-3 miles up with this and it sounds like you aren't going any where near that so this would be quite noticeable :p
Click to expand...

or even a Mylar parachute?
 
RocketManDan said:
or even a Mylar parachute?
Click to expand...

That would work too. The point of the streamer is that it flutters with the shiny one one side and the black on the other. If both sides are shiny it doesn't really flutter. So, if you're not going very high the mylar parachute would be plenty, expecially if accompanied by either a bright color on a dark day or a dark color on a bright day, as mentioned by others.

Note to self: add mylar parachute to inventory :p
 
the com 3 doesn't use a chute(if built as per the instructions). a pair of streamers made from a 'space' blanket would assist the tracking/recovery crew :).
rex
 
Black is definitely just about the easiest possible color to see against the sky. The problem is, it doesn't stick out against the ground. I tend to go with a combination scheme using both black and extremely bright colors (neon orange, pink, yellow, etc) if visibility is key, since the black stands out well in the sky, and the bright colors stand out well on the ground.
 
cjl said:
Black is definitely just about the easiest possible color to see against the sky. The problem is, it doesn't stick out against the ground. I tend to go with a combination scheme using both black and extremely bright colors (neon orange, pink, yellow, etc) if visibility is key, since the black stands out well in the sky, and the bright colors stand out well on the ground.
Click to expand...

How about striped?
 
Hi Kinesthesia, welcome to TRF!

How old is your son? A great way to involve young kids in rocketry is to let them in on selecting colors and designs, and if old enough, to let them help with the painting.

Also, if he has a favorite TV/film character or other interest, paint colors combined with stickers or decals can make a very appealing rocket for a kid (well, kids of any age :)). We have Darth Vader, Harry Potter, Tinkerbell, flower power, and pink glitter rockets at our house.
 
Chadrog has posted the very best reply to the thread authors original question... In full up 3 stage configuration it's color really doesn't matter as it is very UNLIKELY to ever be seen again. I'm on my 4th sustainer for my Comanche-3. One was painted Black with Rustoleum Magenta strips and fins, second sustainer & lost second stage were painted fluorescent RED...didn't help lost that sustainer on the very next 2-stage flight. IF it's flown D12-0, C6-0, C6-5 or 7 they simply do not return...at least in the same county LOL!!!
Third and Forth sustainers are back to the original Fluorescent Green with two 72" fluorescent Red & Yellow tape streamers. generally flown with either an A8-5 or B6-6 in the sustainer.

Truth is Paint your models to suit your taste and don't really worry about visiblity. Rememeber at most times of the day we are flying, when we are looking UP we are seeing the underside of the model in SHADOW...so it's going to appear Dark to black regardless of the color painted especially at altitude;)
Paint and decoration are for the model sitting on the pad or laying in the field.

067-b1c-sm_Comanche-3 2-Stage flt 2 pic_02-19-92.jpg
 
Club launches are great for multistage rockets--the more eyes you have around the better the chance of getting it back. ;) You may even want volunteers to watch the booster stages land--they are easy to lose on some fields.
 
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First let me say thanks for the replies !

As for the Com3, I have no immediate plans of launching with 3 stages. As suggested, I plan on trying one for a while, then two, and so on ...

Since color seems less important than I thought, I probably will paint it black because I think it will look cool.

Pippen, my son will be 12 soon and I plan on letting him pick out his own rocket, build it himself and paint and decal it however he likes. I bought the Com3 in advance to teach myself before I try to teach him =)

Micromeister, thanks for the tip. And I enjoyed the pics ... I went to Middletown Valley High loong ago. Do you go to the local club launches ? I plan on going to Mt Airy tomorrow ...

So thanks again everyone for the replies, I'll let you know if I ever see the Com3 again when I launch it :cool:
 
Kinesthesia said:
First let me say thanks for the replies !

Micromeister, thanks for the tip. And I enjoyed the pics ... I went to Middletown Valley High loong ago. Do you go to the local club launches ? I plan on going to Mt Airy tomorrow ...

So thanks again everyone for the replies, I'll let you know if I ever see the Com3 again when I launch it :cool:
Click to expand...

Yep! sure do, I'm one of the OLD TIME regulars and Long time club member/former Section advisor and club equipment manager/ ROMC.

Sure Am Hoping the field isn't a mud-pit after almost two solid weeks of rain but the Launch manager is calling it a Go, so I'm sure Hoping to be there.
the Better 2/3rds and I should have our white top EZup somewhere close to the rangehead if all goes as planned.
With a dozen new Micros to fly, we're planning on being busy LOL! Hope to see you there.
 
Welcome Kinesthesia, I bought a Com 3 years ago because it was just to cool looking and I had to have it. Went with the orange color. I have never lost it, because I have never launched it.
 
You might think that a black rocket would show up real nicely against a white cloud.

Not necessarily; as the human eye when looking at a bright white object can and does produce its own black objects.

For those who have ever done any backpacking and have pitched tents on an open snow covered field. A bright yellow or orange tent can be seen from a mile off while a dark green or brown tent will disappear against the white background your eye dismisses it as an aberration in its field of view.

You wouldn’t think that would happen but it does.

In addition, as others have stated; I’d purchase and build a few single stage rockets with single sets of fins before I tackled the “C3”.

Another possibility is to build the upper stage first and fly it a couple of times. Then you can use it as a template to build and align the fin sets on the first and second stages.
 
One of my favorite rockets. I started just as you plan to. Launching just the sustainer a few times, then with second stage a few times—but once you plug in that D third stage—you'd better have multiple sets of eyes tracking it. I found mine the next Spring hanging from a cedar tree about a quarter mile from the launch site.
 
Le Aeronautical said:
You also might consider a mylar streamer. If you buy them they are expensive as all get-out, but you can make one. Make the streamer by having one side mylar and the other side a black fabric like rip-stop nylon or something. The fabric strengthen the streamer, plus it will "flutter" between the shinny mylar and the black fabric making it really to see.
Click to expand...

Can't say I agree with Aero on this one: Mylar (alone) has always worked just fine for me.

Go to your local WMart (man, I hate to say that) or anywhere with an outdoors department, and find a "space" blanket (survival blanket?), it will give you a (roughly) 6 x 8 foot piece of aluminized mylar for a couple bucks. This will be enough to last for a good many streamers and chutes. No need at all (IMHO) to add ripstop (any color) to the backside.

Cut a strip 2-3 inches wide, 3-4-5-6 feet long, and you have a streamer.

For a rocket design like a Commanche (something that gets up there pretty high) you don't want to use a parachute, or a long streamer. You want it to come down fairly quickly, or you won't get it back at all. I would recommend you start with a short (2 or 3 foot) streamer to see how it performs for you, and if you need a longer one it is easy to change out. I think you will be amazed at how much visibility a silvered streamer adds to a descending rocket (even a short streamer).

You are right to start with single-stage launches, and work your way up to more stages. Don't forget you can use B booster motors, and you can rig an adapter for the bottom stage to use an A or B booster instead of a D motor. Hope you have a really large launch field..... (and I hope that sounds ominous enough). For such a design, you may want to consider leaving the fin trailing edges square (for strength) and soak the tips with some CA for reinforcement against bumps and scrapes during landing.

In my experience, rocket colors up in the air don't matter much. If it is low enough, and big enough, you will see it. If it is high and far away, no choice or amount of color is going to make much difference. It is far more important to be able to locate your rocket on the ground, post-flight. At that point you need some color that stands out from the ground (and whatever trash is scattered about). Even on the ground, a silver streamer can help, because if there is any wind at all the motion and reflection will help catch your eye. Other than that, choose the colors you like, or the colors you think are jazzy, or your kid's favorite color---it's mostly a matter of preference.
 
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powderburner said:
Can't say I agree with Aero on this one: Mylar (alone) has always worked just fine for me.

Go to your local WMart (man, I hate to say that) or anywhere with an outdoors department, and find a "space" blanket (survival blanket?), it will give you a (roughly) 6 x 8 foot piece of aluminized mylar for a couple bucks. This will be enough to last for a good many streamers and chutes. No need at all (IMHO) to add ripstop (any color) to the backside.

Cut a strip 2-3 inches wide, 3-4-5-6 feet long, and you have a streamer.

For a rocket design like a Commanche (something that gets up there pretty high) you don't want to use a parachute, or a long streamer. You want it to come down fairly quickly, or you won't get it back at all. I would recommend you start with a short (2 or 3 foot) streamer to see how it performs for you, and if you need a longer one it is easy to change out. I think you will be amazed at how much visibility a silvered streamer adds to a descending rocket (even a short streamer).

You are right to start with single-stage launches, and work your way up to more stages. Don't forget you can use B booster motors, and you can rig an adapter for the bottom stage to use an A or B booster instead of a D motor. Hope you have a really large launch field..... (and I hope that sounds ominous enough). For such a design, you may want to consider leaving the fin trailing edges square (for strength) and soak the tips with some CA for reinforcement against bumps and scrapes during landing.

In my experience, rocket colors up in the air don't matter much. If it is low enough, and big enough, you will see it. If it is high and far away, no choice or amount of color is going to make much difference. It is far more important to be able to locate your rocket on the ground, post-flight. At that point you need some color that stands out from the ground (and whatever trash is scattered about). Even on the ground, a silver streamer can help, because if there is any wind at all the motion and reflection will help catch your eye. Other than that, choose the colors you like, or the colors you think are jazzy, or your kid's favorite color---it's mostly a matter of preference.
Click to expand...

I'm right until proven wrong, right? :D

I'll have to try that myself, I can't say that I have tried mylar by itself, just going off of the design of my fancy streamer. But it is pretty bright stuff so I bet it works well either way.

On the larger mylar parachutes (have you built any?) do they hold up over time without the fabric? That would certainly cut the weight of it in half, at least.
 
Le Aeronautical said:
On the larger mylar parachutes (have you built any?) do they hold up over time without the fabric?
Click to expand...

Same question, right back at 'ya: Have you?

The mylar sheet-chutes that I have built have worked very well. They are very highly reflective up in the air (and if I am park-launching, they often pull in people who want to see "what was that thing?") Mylar sheet is just as strong as (if not stronger than) plastic sheet material, and can be quite durable. Tape sticks well to it and edge "anchors" for shroud lines usually hold very well. (If I burnish them down thoroughly they seldom ever let go of the shroud line.) One bad aspect of mylar; if it gets a tear, the tear can open up fast. One other slight disadvantage; mylar resists folding and packing a bit more than other materials like soft sheet plastic, so you may need to use a slightly smaller chute to fit into the same rocket volume.

By comparison with some of the other chute materials I have used, mylar is at least as "good" as any other. I have used drycleaner bags for competition chutes and compared to that, mylar is just about bulletproof.
 
powderburner said:
Same question, right back at 'ya: Have you?

The mylar sheet-chutes that I have built have worked very well. They are very highly reflective up in the air (and if I am park-launching, they often pull in people who want to see "what was that thing?") Mylar sheet is just as strong as (if not stronger than) plastic sheet material, and can be quite durable. Tape sticks well to it and edge "anchors" for shroud lines usually hold very well. (If I burnish them down thoroughly they seldom ever let go of the shroud line.) One bad aspect of mylar; if it gets a tear, the tear can open up fast. One other slight disadvantage; mylar resists folding and packing a bit more than other materials like soft sheet plastic, so you may need to use a slightly smaller chute to fit into the same rocket volume.

By comparison with some of the other chute materials I have used, mylar is at least as "good" as any other. I have used drycleaner bags for competition chutes and compared to that, mylar is just about bulletproof.
Click to expand...

No I haven't that's why I was asking you. :p

The mylar that I have is very very thin. It sounds like whatever you have is quite thick. The stuff I have, with the reinforced rip-stop fiber actually "rolls" up pretty easily.
 
powderburner said:
In my experience, rocket colors up in the air don't matter much. If it is low enough, and big enough, you will see it. If it is high and far away, no choice or amount of color is going to make much difference. It is far more important to be able to locate your rocket on the ground, post-flight. At that point you need some color that stands out from the ground (and whatever trash is scattered about). Even on the ground, a silver streamer can help, because if there is any wind at all the motion and reflection will help catch your eye. Other than that, choose the colors you like, or the colors you think are jazzy, or your kid's favorite color---it's mostly a matter of preference.
Click to expand...

I am sure you would see "The Colour from Out of Space" though.

In all seriousness, powderburner is right, color on the way up doesn't matter as much, but it does help in the recovery phase, especially for gliders. They are damn near impossible to find if you have painted them anything other than bright, non-natural colors.
 
Micromeister said:
Yep! sure do, I'm one of the OLD TIME regulars and Long time club member/former Section advisor and club equipment manager/ ROMC.

Sure Am Hoping the field isn't a mud-pit after almost two solid weeks of rain but the Launch manager is calling it a Go, so I'm sure Hoping to be there.
the Better 2/3rds and I should have our white top EZup somewhere close to the rangehead if all goes as planned.
With a dozen new Micros to fly, we're planning on being busy LOL! Hope to see you there.
Click to expand...

Hey John, sorry I didn't read this before I went to the launch or else I would have come over and introduced myself. I saw some of your micro launches, which were pretty awesome. I stayed for a couple hours and had a great time until my Blackberry went off and I had to leave for work. (Note to self : Leave Blackberry at home)

As for the Comanche, I went by Hobby Works in Laurel and Scott talked me down off the roof and I bought a Big Bertha to build first. I am certainly glad I did, even the Bertha was more challenging than I expected. But I launched it today a couple times, crooked fins and all, and had a blast. Now I see that I'll be picking up a Fin Alignment Guide before I start on the Comanche.

And a quick note to other newbies, the distances on the packages ... are higher than I thought. The Comanche is rated for 2660 feet at full power, the Bertha is rated for 500 feet at full power. I flew it on a A8-3 first then a B4-4 and ... it's higher than I thought. Right now I can't even imagine going up half a mile.
 
I saw a chart once that recommended various colors depending on what part of the country you were launching and what time of year.

For example, Ohio has a lot of grey skies, especially in the winter, so you would use ddifferent color schemes there than you would in Arizona which usually has clear skies most of the year. Bright orange and red are usually good colors except in the fall if you live in an area with a lot of maple trees. Once all of those red and orange leaves are on the ground it can be hard to spot a similarly colored rocket.

So there really is no one good color scheme that works everywhere all the time. Therefore, you need to buy at least two of every rocket. When the wife asks why you bought two of the exact same rocket you just look at her and say "Duh! This one is my winter, spring and summer rocket and it is painted bright red. And this other one is my October 3rd through November 15th rocket which is painted green. Sometimes you just have no sense at all woman!"

By the way, if anyone actually tries that let me know how that works out.
 
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Kinesthesia said:
Hey John, sorry I didn't read this before I went to the launch or else I would have come over and introduced myself. I saw some of your micro launches, which were pretty awesome. I stayed for a couple hours and had a great time until my Blackberry went off and I had to leave for work. (Note to self : Leave Blackberry at home)

As for the Comanche, I went by Hobby Works in Laurel and Scott talked me down off the roof and I bought a Big Bertha to build first. I am certainly glad I did, even the Bertha was more challenging than I expected. But I launched it today a couple times, crooked fins and all, and had a blast. Now I see that I'll be picking up a Fin Alignment Guide before I start on the Comanche.

And a quick note to other newbies, the distances on the packages ... are higher than I thought. The Comanche is rated for 2660 feet at full power, the Bertha is rated for 500 feet at full power. I flew it on a A8-3 first then a B4-4 and ... it's higher than I thought. Right now I can't even imagine going up half a mile.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you enjoyed it :D !!!
 
Kinesthesia said:
Hey John, sorry I didn't read this before I went to the launch or else I would have come over and introduced myself. I saw some of your micro launches, which were pretty awesome. I stayed for a couple hours and had a great time until my Blackberry went off and I had to leave for work. (Note to self : Leave Blackberry at home)

As for the Comanche, I went by Hobby Works in Laurel and Scott talked me down off the roof and I bought a Big Bertha to build first. I am certainly glad I did, even the Bertha was more challenging than I expected. But I launched it today a couple times, crooked fins and all, and had a blast. Now I see that I'll be picking up a Fin Alignment Guide before I start on the Comanche.

And a quick note to other newbies, the distances on the packages ... are higher than I thought. The Comanche is rated for 2660 feet at full power, the Bertha is rated for 500 feet at full power. I flew it on a A8-3 first then a B4-4 and ... it's higher than I thought. Right now I can't even imagine going up half a mile.
Click to expand...

Well darn! sure wish you had!
Glad that Scott got you into something a little larger in diameter and single staged for your first LOL!! Great JOB Scott.

You are so right about the package altitudes. I wish more folks would understand it's really not how far the model goes up. but the distance it's going to travel under chute that's MUCH longer generally with nominal winds. When teaching classes we try to slip in the fact that we don't really want to go for the biggest motor possible every time. It's often much more fun to use smaller motors to fly more often with less recovery time.
Very Happy you had a great day! Hope to meet you at an upcoming launch.
 

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