Starting Research Question -- No details, no links, no formulas

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Agent Titan

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I have a quick question about research. I have looked around, and can't find really any official rules about creating EX/Research/Amateur motors. I know that I can't fly them without an L2 license, and only at Tripoli/Research launches.

My question is, can I make and ground test motors without a permit?
 
Yes, you can. In fact, motors made and fired in the field bypass many of the laws dealing with rockets including transportation. Until the chemicals are mixed none have any legal restrictions.

Just be careful on the "where-you-do-it" part, your local police might have something to say about the noise and smoke ;)
 
Well, we have a pretty large property. And thanks. Are there any say, NFPA rules, or Govt. Laws I can read that say it's okay? Not, "Somebody on the internet said it would be okay!" (No offense!) :)
 
I have a quick question about research. I have looked around, and can't find really any official rules about creating EX/Research/Amateur motors. I know that I can't fly them without an L2 license, and only at Tripoli/Research launches.

My question is, can I make and ground test motors without a permit?

what permit, are you talking about...

your state may have permits that are required, you may need an leup to have some chemicals.(although leup is argued to not be required to make apcp)

Making rocket motors, is like making a jet turbine, pulse jet, anyting that makes fire and noise.

"i dont know, can you?", is what i tell my son when he asks a question like that... he either says yes and goes about his buisness, or we argue till i dont let him.
The government is pretty much the same way... Liberty, is the excersize of rights, not within the law, but within the equal rights of others. =Thomas Jefferson.
and is essentially true, if you are taking the liberty to make and test a rocket motor, and no one else takes issue,, there is no issue...
if someone feels like you could damage themselves or thier property, you may not be able to, and at that point is subjective. If at that point your breaking the law, you will goto jail, get fined or both. I suggest do it within your local laws and within the equal rights of those around you.

That means, where are your storing your stuff, if it chatches fire, does it just burn down a shed, a house, a neighbrohood. Is it properly marked, if you have some metals, you cant use water extinquishers. You need plaquards showing to use class D metals extinquisher, - do you have one of those(the 400.00 extinquisher, and the 30.00 plaque).
what are your contingincies??? you need a list of most that can happen, and how you are going to react to them?

If you are testing motors, how are you ensuring everyones safety...

For age, I am going to say, for the activity there isnt one. for the aquisition of materials, i am sure 18 to 21. For TRA sanctioned launches 18 years old, good standing L2 certification for A - L motors, and L3 certificaion for M, N, to S. Ground tests are treated as flights, so a L2 cant ground test and M motor.


A good reason, you dont see a lot of regulation is that people dont just wake up and go make rocket motors. For my self as a horrible example...I am quite capable of doing rocketry in my garage.(and is exactly what i thought when i started.) But, in doing that I am way less capable than if I joined TRA, Joined a club, and went and actively participated in Research Motors. Its a heck of a lot more fun. You get to see other peoples motors cato, you get senior level advice without the trial and error they went through.

Cost for setting up for making your own research motors, is very HIGH! I can fly hpr and burn a ton of ap for 1,000.00 a year.(in another state.) your looking at atleast 2/3rds that to make your first J motor. The cost is infinately higher if you burn something down, or hurt someone trying.

your first step is to find someone who is willing to show you the insides of how the motors are made Let them mentor you, then just like anything, keep the good throw out the bad and then find someone else to learn from.
 
Well, we have a pretty large property. And thanks. Are there any say, NFPA rules, or Govt. Laws I can read that say it's okay? Not, "Somebody on the internet said it would be okay!" (No offense!) :)

yes, an attorney with a bar liscense in your county. if you dont like that answer.

NFPA is ambiuous as applys to what you are doing IMO. Everyone has a "different" view. (it aboslutely applies in TRA events and as applies to thier bylaws.)

That said for government, I would start at your OSFM office of state fire marshall. See what nfpa codes are "refferenced" or what SC (stated code) is enforced.
"refrenced code, is an applicable accepted guideline, nothing more"
Then i would look at Department of Public Safety, Department of Transportation. or, my state, Department of mines as well.

your attorney, is more expensive, but usually faster than going at your own.
(I have all 4 of these over rocket motors...)
 
Thanks, Clay. I will do *most* of that! :D (No burning down houses or buildings, and I have a way to make it a bit cheaper than $750 for a J [Which I probably won't even want to get to.])
 
Thanks, Clay. I will do *most* of that! :D (No burning down houses or buildings, and I have a way to make it a bit cheaper than $750 for a J [Which I probably won't even want to get to.])

I like the way Gary at Rocket motor parts puts it.... "Mix somewhere, if you dont mind if it burns down" I am skeptical he knows what he was talking about...
or even experienced something burning down for that matter...

Not that the J costs 750.00... But, you have to have a good way of mixing.. you have to have a safe storage. stuff like dessicant to keep the moisture away.. solvents for cleaning equipment....degassing equipment, mixer, plus chemical stock.

Serioulsy setting up to make research motors, is nothing short of setting up to run a small buisness... (as far as i have found it to be.)

Of course there are always ways to cut corners, or do more work so your not paying out for it, and i hope it doesnt show up in your propellant... But, please share any new ways you may find.
 
ClayD, This is one post of yours that I felt I had to reply to. Your $1000 - $750 cost is way off it's mark. I can hand mix an M motor in a plastic paint bucket that does not need to be degasssed and have it work just fine. You don't need a mixer. You can hand mix. (I have for the past 10 years). You don't need to degass all propellants. You do need a scale. The best advise is to find a mentor that has been doing EX.

Tony
 
I like the way Gary at Rocket motor parts puts it.... "Mix somewhere, if you dont mind if it burns down" I am skeptical he knows what he was talking about...
or even experienced something burning down for that matter...

If that's your idea of a joke, then that's in incredibly poor taste. If it's not a joke, then you need to do some serious research.
 
Well, we have a pretty large property. And thanks. Are there any say, NFPA rules, or Govt. Laws I can read that say it's okay? Not, "Somebody on the internet said it would be okay!" (No offense!) :)

I can tell you what is permissible and what isn't and making your motor in the field is by far the least involved from a legal standpoint. Article in High Power Rocketry documenting a space attempt with a 9" diameter motor with a boosted dart. For legal ground transportation it was decided to mix, cast and build the motor in the field. Article by Dave Chrisalli, I can't tell you what issue. The one single problem they had to deal with was the waiver. All the constituent parts of the motor were legal to transport in their normal state.
 
Once again- I am just looking find the law (if there is one) that states the ability to make EX motors. That's all I am asking.
 
ClayD, This is one post of yours that I felt I had to reply to. Your $1000 - $750 cost is way off it's mark. I can hand mix an M motor in a plastic paint bucket that does not need to be degasssed and have it work just fine. You don't need a mixer. You can hand mix. (I have for the past 10 years). You don't need to degass all propellants. You do need a scale. The best advise is to find a mentor that has been doing EX.

Tony

your absolutely right, you can mix in a bucket. Is that realy how you mix?
Judging from what i have seen of propellant mixing, its thick gooey and looks like brick mortar for the most part.(even the glopable propellants) I wouldn't want to do it that way. How long do you mix? are you using a drill paddle? i would be afraid i wasnt consitent enough in my techniqe it may cause me issue.
One of my "mentors" told me hand mixing is just fine when I first went to a "mix" party to poke and prodd questions. He commented, i could make a few J motors without much investment. So yeah, i have to agree my first post made it sound more cost prohibitive than it should have.

I picked up a cheap mixer for 100.00, that freakin rocks..so i wasnt accounting too much mixer money..

I would put the bucket mixing in my post about, "doing more work, so your not paying out for it."

I was just hoping to give some insight to what I am seeing as I get set up. Right now, 600.00 is going to be darn near where I end up. Being storage facility, fire prevention measures, my consumables, and my first batch of chems.
 
I have, and at times still mix in the bottoms of gallon milk jugs. Normally, I mix in a $9 stainless steel bowl from Walmart. I use a $6 'ice cream scoop' to mix with. How long do I mix for? I'm really not sure of actual "mix' time. If I have the casting tubes cut ahead of time it takes me about 29 min to do a single 54mm J to about an hour to do an M. That's mixing, packing and clean up.
If someone told me it was going to cost me $600 - $1000 just to get started I would never have gotten into it.

Tony
 
I have, and at times still mix in the bottoms of gallon milk jugs. Normally, I mix in a $9 stainless steel bowl from Walmart. I use a $6 'ice cream scoop' to mix with. How long do I mix for? I'm really not sure of actual "mix' time. If I have the casting tubes cut ahead of time it takes me about 29 min to do a single 54mm J to about an hour to do an M. That's mixing, packing and clean up.
If someone told me it was going to cost me $600 - $1000 just to get started I would never have gotten into it.

Tony

My observation was it was thick, noxious fumes, and not something i wanted to be standing over agitating with my arms. Plus in a group setting jaw yacking, and the mix time seemed to be more than an hour..but i am a newby, so i didnt know what was actualy requred.

So what would you consider the cost of startup to be.
so far your at $15.00, you have me beat by $85 already.
What are you storing your chems in, ect...
 
I agree with Tony. You dont need to spend a fortune to start mixing propellant. When we first started out we went to WalMart and bought a stainless bowl, a few stainless spoons, latex gloves, and mineral spirits for easy cleanup. That was it. I think we walked out of there for less than $30 bucks. We hand mixed all the time filling 38mm and 54mm casting tubes.
I keep my propellant in an ammo box. inside the ammo box i have a small tupperware container with tiny holes poked in the top and filled with "DampRid" this keeps all the moisture out. All my chems are stored the same way in a different ammo box.
Now we use a kitchen aid mixer i bought from craigslist for $85, but we still mix small batches by hand when we are trying a new formula and only going to make a couple 38mm reloads.
Find someone from a local club that can mentor you if you decide to enter the EX world. 1. it is alot safer, 2. its more fun when you have someone there to help, and 3. it will save you from making costly mistakes.
Good luck.

Danny
 
I keep my propellant in an ammo box. inside the ammo box i have a small tupperware container with tiny holes poked in the top and filled with "DampRid" this keeps all the moisture out. All my chems are stored the same way in a different ammo box.
Danny

that is good advice,thanks for the damp rid idea... i will have to look into that... and i have several empty ammo boxes... that is a free bee ...
much cheaper than what i was considering.
 
My observation was it was thick, noxious fumes

Hrmm, personally I like they way it smells, espicially the R45M. I guess the worst part is the ammonia but that usualy goes away pretty quickly.
 
If someone told me it was going to cost me $600 - $1000 just to get started I would never have gotten into it.

Tony

I could not disagree more. Maybe it is just me but I have always been looking for something more exciting. Once I finish building my Lvl 3 it will have been ~$1500 from start to fly. Not saying that is good or bad but that is what it takes. If you have no intention of going past Lvl 2 than no I wouldn't be doing EX motors. To me it is just the next step after getting Lvl 3.

Another point, I have scratch built all of my rockets but my Lvl 3. Flying a certified motor in one of those on the first flight gives me the thrill of proving my design. Every time I fly a motor I built myself it gives me the same thrill. It is like skydiving...Why jump out of a perfectly good airplane? The door was open.

Dave
 
Maybe it's just the cost you guys are quoting. I scratch built my level 3 for under $100. I used some fiberglass 'gas pipe' I got from a dumpster. I made the chute from the floor of a tent. I think that was about 7 or 8 years ago. I still have and fly that rocket. So I know the thrill of scratch building..maybe to the extreme even. I agree that Ex is another aspect of the hobby for guys to go in to. I like making motors. I like mixing by hand. I think my motors work pretty good. I would rather see some one spend money on the basics first and then they might be able to buy chems in bulk and save. If you've $600-1000 to buy Ex stuff with that's fine. Not everyone does. Don't let the cost being quoted here keep you away. It can, and is done much cheaper.

Tony
 
I scratch built my level 3 for under $100.

Seriously? Airframe, Motor Tube, Centering rings, Bulkheads, Bolts and nuts, Fins, couplers, rail buttons, nose cone, recovery harness, baffling/wadding and electronics? Under $100?

:eyeroll:
 
yep..free body tube..fiberglass 'gas pipe'..dumpster
couplers made from pieces of body tube
Fins and bulheads..cut from a 3' x'3 G10 from a junkyard $10
nose cone made from scratch
recovery harness used from my L2
the main was made from a floor of a tent
I did have 'both' of my G-Wiz alitmeters in this rocket
no centering rings, it was almost min dia 3.375" OD
I did buy a qt of epoxy, 1.5 yards of fiberglass and a 75mm cardboard tube for the motor mount. and some mics nuts and bolts and 3 cans of paint.

Flew it on an M1315 to 19,600 in 2001 (IIRC) Here's a video from 2008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFbE7TLWAF4 Both rockets are made from 'gas pipe'. The orange rocket is my L3 rocket. 25+ flights to date. You can see the brown chute frome the floor of the tent. Both motors hand mixed with just basic supplies.

I'm getting way off track here...my point for Ex is that it can be done for a lot less then what is posted above. L3 can too for that matter. It just takes some thinking.

Tony
 
Tony, how much was your motor? I imagine that's not in the $100. But still, were you able to find a good price on that?
 
I do see the value of budget rockets. Heck I started high power my freshman year in college so my 5 rockets cost less than $50 each. My lvl 2 I built out of scrap 4.5" carbon tubes I got for free, I made the couplers from bondo fiberglass I got a walmart. The 1/4" ply and ubolts I got from lowes and my mom sewed a simple 60" chute for me. All in all I spent $25 plus the motor for my lvl 2.

However, I don't count that as being cheap. I cannot build the same rocket again for that price. If you hang around in junk yards... more power to you. I prefer to design a rocket and then go build it. I rarely find some trash and make it a rocket. No offense Tony :). It hurt when you told me it takes some thinking. I recently graduated and got a big boy job so I decided to splurge and buy some nice rocket stuff.
 
i was checking out a website that sells chemicals, and it seemed like most all the metal meshes under 100 micrometers required batfe permit. now i have no idea what size metal would be used in a motor of any size, but if the metal mesh is larger than the 100um limit, then no permit seems to be required as long as you burn/cast in the same area i think?

idk, i hate that i gotta wait til 21 to get an LEUP though. just something good to have, even if i don't end up needing it right?
 
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Those questioning Tony simply must not be aware of Tony's work. He is the master of value, his talents in research motors and big rockets on a budget far surpass I'd imagine 99.9% of those on the forums (certainly myself included)...who else here has flown a minimum diameter P motor successfully?:eek:

He's being honest, not feeding you a line of crap, and he's respected among the greats that visit Black Rock and other sites out west regularly. There are others who talk a lot and have little to show for it; on the contrary Tony talks little but has a lot to show for it. Take a look at some of his glassing videos, his website, posts on various forums, google him for goodness sake. All this questioning of someone who has achieved many milestones is rediculous. People, get over yourselves:no:. Rant over

Now, for personal experience. I too hand mix both pourables and packables. Mixed a batch of red last night. I do vacuum everything, although some of the higher solids formulas with dry chems is mostly unnecessary. I mixed and flew for over a year without vacuum, without incident. Vacuuming helps, but as Tony mentioned, is not always an absolute necessity. My noteworthy expenses were the vacuum setup, a decent scale, and chems. Lesser expenses were mixing bowl(s), wooden mixing spoons, packing dowls, etc.

You can spend thousands, you may spend thousands, but you certainly don't have to! There are those out there that will insist that you must machine mix, must degass for days, have elaborate shaker tables, vacuum mixing chambers, etc....I'm sure it works for them and that's great. I, like Tony, mix by hand with a minimal amount of equipment, and it works for me. I've killed only one 54-3G case; that was a ground test; I learned a lesson from it, and have yet to repeat that performance (knock on wood).

Your mileage may vary; but if properly respected, it is a rewarding and enjoyable aspect of the hobby. I too love the smell of R45!

-Eric-
 
but i am a newby, so i [Don't] know what [the hell I am talking about]

Fixed

Seriously? Airframe, Motor Tube, Centering rings, Bulkheads, Bolts and nuts, Fins, couplers, rail buttons, nose cone, recovery harness, baffling/wadding and electronics? Under $100?

:eyeroll:

Level 3 (2 or 1) rockets built: 0

If you hang around in junk yards... more power to you. I prefer to design a rocket and then go build it. I rarely find some trash and make it a rocket. No offense Tony :). It hurt when you told me it takes some thinking. I recently graduated and got a big boy job so I decided to splurge and buy some nice rocket stuff.

If you want to buy components at full price that is your perogative but don't discount the purchasing of surplus or used materials that are as good, if not better or even the same as OTS materials. FWFG is an awesome airframe material. Andrew D bought a lathe in a junkyard. Hardly "trash"


Trying to push this back on topic, I would suggest the OT talk to local enthusiasts and even local law enforcment/fire departments if you are truly concerned with possible issues in static testing high powered rocket motors. Nakka, and Scott Fintel have a lot of static testing information on their websites, and getting in touch with them and/or people you know who do EX may be beneficial and take a lot of guess work out of what you're trying to do. I also suggest you don't overestimate the value of a lot of the information of this thread.
 
To add to this, it's your time or your money. If you have the time, the talents, and the right equipment, you can build almost anything you can buy.

The cost of the raw materials used in almost anything is only 10% of the cost of the product. Labor, overhead, inventory, administration, marketing, taxes and hopefully some profit account for the other 90%. If you make your rocket from surplus or discounted material, you can certainly do what Tony does, but you also have to know alot about design and building, and have the time and drive to see it through.

The same applies to EX. While the costs of the raw propellant chemicals are not that high, making bad motors is more expensive than buying commercial as you will most likely loose your rocket and your casing, which in a large L3 rocket can be in the 4 digit range. Here again, you need the time, skills, talent, and patience to learn how to make motor, and you need to have the facilities to do it safely.

Tony does both extremely well.

Bob
 
Now, for personal experience. I too hand mix both pourables and packables. Mixed a batch of red last night. I do vacuum everything, although some of the higher solids formulas with dry chems is mostly unnecessary. I mixed and flew for over a year without vacuum, without incident. Vacuuming helps, but as Tony mentioned, is not always an absolute necessity. My noteworthy expenses were the vacuum setup, a decent scale, and chems. Lesser expenses were mixing bowl(s), wooden mixing spoons, packing dowls, etc.

+1

Although not anymore. Something scientific about me likes Speed 1 for 15 minutes, scrape, Speed 1 for 20 minutes, scrape, etc, etc ( and a $200 30 qt couldnt be resisted ). Can't discount hand mixing though, that is how we all got started...it is like a right of passage

+1 on Tony's experience too. I thought everyone knew Tony was the man already???

I too love the smell of R45!

+1000

R45.png
 
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