Starting Research Question -- No details, no links, no formulas

The fact that Ryan and Todd like sniffing R45 explains a lot...

Although not anymore. Something scientific about me likes Speed 1 for 15 minutes, scrape, Speed 1 for 20 minutes, scrape, etc, etc ( and a $200 30 qt couldnt be resisted ). Can't discount hand mixing though, that is how we all got started...it is like a right of passage

Click to expand...

Good find! I'll admit that I frequently watch for rightly priced Hobarts; I've missed a few that would've been great. In the meantime, I'm fine with hand mixing; even 4" grains...I typically have help when making bigger batches.

Nice cartoon Ryan; I could do without the ammonia smell, but I view that as a good thing to tell me that the tep is doing something useful.

Ditto the advice to get involved with other locals... it's a good way to come up to speed quickly and learn some critical do's and don'ts before you learn the hard way.

Ryan S. said:

Fixed

Click to expand...

wha???

You have some misappropriated hope. or maybe some confusion?

Ryan S. said:

Level 3 (2 or 1) rockets built: 1 [fixed]

Click to expand...

I know who Tony is a recognize his accomplishments, I also know he did NOT build a level 3 for $100. He may have scrounged most of the parts, and gotten some good deals, but that fact is that if a person went to build the same rocket and launch it, it would cost them several hundred dollars for the electronics alone.

This is where the whole conversation has diverged, some people saying it is expensive and some people saying you can do it cheap. While it is true that you can spend as much as you want when it comes to just about anything, buying new/custom/brand name vs. scrounging, looking for bargains, etc. What people sometimes fail to do is look at total cost. Just like Tony and his $100 level tree contained items from his "inventory". Those items cost something at some point and should be included in the total cost when quoting that cost to someone as a reference point. That person doesn't have an inventory and would have to incur that cost if starting fresh.

I just build my level one and it cost me $65 in parts. Then when you add in all the trips to the LHS for a chute and, ebay for some nylon, sporting goods store for some swivels, hobby store for some plywood and Lowe's to buy hardware, paint, glue, even tools that I didn't have it would quickly add up to a couple hundred bucks. To go to level 2 will be cheaper as I am going to use the same rocket and I will just need to reconfigure and add some electronics. But what is the cost of the level 2 rocket? Is it what I spent on the electronics or is is cumulative of the level 1 rocket? Also I know have established an "inventory" and futre costs will be lower per rocket because of that investment.

For someone getting into EX they probably have nothing that has to do with propulsion. They will need things to mix with and things to mix in. They will need things to measure with cases to pour into and all kinds of small tools and things that they may not have. All these hidden costs quickly add up. When we throw out these "cost" numbers I think that they should be representative of the total cost including hidden costs and "inventory" items.

My apologies Tony. Sarcasm doesn't go over well in forums. I wasn't calling your rockets trash.

So far I haven't blown anything up, that one is still coming to me, but that is due to hours and hours of research and talking to everybody I knew. I think the propulsion prof was happy to see me go.

Bigdave..no offense taken. They are/where trash. I pride myself in making things from others discarded items. I've been thinking about what I've said and others have said in this thread. When we talk about scratch built...I'm now thinking, there are many aspects to this. Designing a rocket and then ordering the parts to build it is one way. Or, you can design a rocket, layup the tubes, nose cone and even layup the plate for the fins and bulkheads. Just like building a rocket there are many levels one can get in to in Ex too. You can order kits, follow the instructions and do just fine. Or you can take it to the next level. That's one reason this hobby interest me. Is all the various aspects that can be explored. Since I've been into rocketry, I've learned about rocket aerodynamics, how to make things from fiberglass or carbon fiber, how motor chemistry (is suppose to) work, how to anodize things and how to run a lathe. I really enjoy learning new things. It keeps me off the streets and keeps my mind fresh.

And thanks to those that said some kind words about me!

Tony

cdondanville said:

Seriously? Airframe, Motor Tube, Centering rings, Bulkheads, Bolts and nuts, Fins, couplers, rail buttons, nose cone, recovery harness, baffling/wadding and electronics? Under $100?

:eyeroll:

Click to expand...

Mine was easily under $100 including a $35 surplus 16' parachute and one of the two timers I built and used from RS. 6" PVC drain pipe is cheap, MMT also PVC 4" as a stuffer/doubler. Cone turned from blue construction foam and fins and rings(8 of them) from 1/4 Luan Philipean Mahogany. Including the Kosdon M2240 total price was under $600.

dave carver said:

Mine was easily under $100 including a $35 surplus 16' parachute and one of the two timers I built and used from RS. 6" PVC drain pipe is cheap, MMT also PVC 4" as a stuffer/doubler. Cone turned from blue construction foam and fins and rings(8 of them) from 1/4 Luan Philipean Mahogany. Including the Kosdon M2240 total price was under $600.

Click to expand...

That is what I was thinking, Everything I had seen said that you could keep it well under a thousand and that $600 was doable including electronics. Tony just caught me by surprise with his $100. I thought the master may have had a secret trick we hadn't heard about for the electronics!

Sorry...M motors with motor ejection was a tad before my time..otherwise..

Tony

Cdondanville,

I'm not sure why you are choosing to pick apart every little last detail, but sure, spending $100 on an L3 type of rocket is not likely to be very common.

I own 5 different altimeters, 2 since before I certified L1. I chose to fly my L2 with one of them, so I guess you could say that I have to include that in my cost. But then again, I could have (and anyone else could have) flown that rocket with motor ejection. Hmm, how should the cost be determined?

Then again, for L3 electronics are required, so maybe its fair to say that the cost for the altimeters you've been flying for years has to be included. I guess you'd have to update the cost for the altimeters to account for inflation as well. Then again, those new Dual Deployment Adept altimeters are only $39 each, so that's still in sub $100 land.

I guess you could also add in the cost of the sewing machine that was used to make a parachute, as that isn't something I personally own and I doubt my wife would let me use hers ever again.

Bottom line is that some people will definitely spend huge amounts more money on a specific project than others. If people were to actually factor in their base pay and account for hours accrued on a project build, the numbers would go way up. But this is a hobby and you just don't do it that way. Well, I don't to be certain.

I guess you could safely say that the total cost of someone successfully flying an L3 project would typically be in the $500-$2000 range including items like the motor, electronics etc, but it is not necessarily safe to say that building a rocket that will be used to fly the attempt couldn't be done for $100, especially given Tony's (and others as well) ability to build high quality products using composites. That really is a game changer where minimal supplies allows the construction of amazing things. Getting in to the composites game isn't expensive either. Check out Tony's video tutorials to see how accessible it really is.

Good luck to you on your future projects.

Sandy.

It really comes down to what all you include.

The typical L3 rocket, as it sits on the pad, is well north of $1,000. Reload and hardware alone are going to cost about $500, for a small M. Another $200 - $300 for electronics.... You get the picture.

In Tony's case, he built the airframe and parachute for under $100.

Not surprising, considering what all Tony has accomplished. I guess there are those of us who know Tony, and what he's done and capable of, and those who don't.

My suggestion?

Rather than just tell him he's wrong, ask about how he did it. One of the great things about Tony is that he's very willing to share what he's done, what he's learned, and what works for him. A lot of us have learned a lot about making motors from Tony, and if you take the time to learn about it, you quickly learn that he is very well respected in the Research community.

The thing is, Tony is also a pretty reserved and humble guy. So, the only people you'll ever see tooting Tony's horn are people who know him.

-Kevin

I am sorry if my points have been misconstrued. I was not intentionally criticizing or attacking anyone and I dont' think I picking anything apart. The question was raised in this thread on how much it should cost to get into making experimental motors and there were differing opinions on magnitude of the cost. The point I was trying to make is that often people (especially people who have a lot of first hand experience) will underestimate the total cost. That is because they have learned how to do things smarter and more efficiency and they have an invento draw on for tools and odds and end. It is disingenuous to state that cost to someone without the experience or inventory.

I chose Tony's comment as an example. If I went to my wife and asked her for $100 so that I could build a level 3 rocket and she gave it to me, I would quickly realize that Tony was not including some of the costs that I must incur. Just because he had electronics, didn't have to buy them and didn't include them in his $100 figure, doesn't mean that I won't have to buy them and all of the sudden I am well over my budget.

Taking this back to the point of the thread, you many not have to spend $1000 to get started, but to someone who has never done it before there will be significant up-front cost to get started. I guess what it comes down to, is you can't make a generalization about cost to someone without getting a little specific and finding out more about their situation.

And in closing, I meant no dis respect to Tony. I know who he is and his work is freaking amazing. I have watched some of his glassing videos and have learned a ton. I also find it quite amazing that he will scrounge and dig parts out of a junkyard, but he has a workshop that any of us would kill for!

-Chris

cdondanville said:

Taking this back to the point of the thread, you many not have to spend $1000 to get started, but to someone who has never done it before there will be significant up-front cost to get started. I guess what it comes down to, is you can't make a generalization about cost to someone without getting a little specific and finding out more about their situation.

Click to expand...

Definite truth in that, which is why I often refer to "as it sits on the pad".

Case in point... I had a Level 3 come in ballistic last year. Cost out of pocket was around $700, in terms of actual cash outlay. A combination of bartering and using stuff I already had kept it that low. Cost to replace everything that sat on the pad? $2300.

Thus, I refer to it as my "$2300 hole". Including the fact that after it happened, I had to replace a $300 altimeter I had borrowed.

Many of us have parts we've accumulated over time, and that we swap around. That's true whether it's for making motors, or for flying rockets.

-Kevin

cdondanville said:

I am sorry if my points have been misconstrued. I was not intentionally criticizing or attacking anyone and I dont' think I picking anything apart. The question was raised in this thread on how much it should cost to get into making experimental motors and there were differing opinions on magnitude of the cost. The point I was trying to make is that often people (especially people who have a lot of first hand experience) will underestimate the total cost. That is because they have learned how to do things smarter and more efficiency and they have an invento draw on for tools and odds and end. It is disingenuous to state that cost to someone without the experience or inventory.

I chose Tony's comment as an example. If I went to my wife and asked her for $100 so that I could build a level 3 rocket and she gave it to me, I would quickly realize that Tony was not including some of the costs that I must incur. Just because he had electronics, didn't have to buy them and didn't include them in his $100 figure, doesn't mean that I won't have to buy them and all of the sudden I am well over my budget.

Taking this back to the point of the thread, you many not have to spend $1000 to get started, but to someone who has never done it before there will be significant up-front cost to get started. I guess what it comes down to, is you can't make a generalization about cost to someone without getting a little specific and finding out more about their situation.

And in closing, I meant no dis respect to Tony. I know who he is and his work is freaking amazing. I have watched some of his glassing videos and have learned a ton. I also find it quite amazing that he will scrounge and dig parts out of a junkyard, but he has a workshop that any of us would kill for!

-Chris

Click to expand...

you dont need expensive electronics for a L3, Adept has a 22.00 dual deploy altimeter!
you could even probably do a timed ejection on the 19.00 timer as backup...depending on your tap.

But, just like others, i baught my electronics as i went along, and my L3 had 400.00 in altimeters..

Rocketry is a sport someone can scrimp, or splurge.

At launches i love seeing the glassed sonotube - or "junkyard" rockets as we can term them... and i like seeing the guys who spare no expense and have some of the neatest looking creations.

And as kevin puts it... 300.00 borrowed electronics...
Realy, being that i would personaly loan my parachatus and altimeters to someone, arent in the cost for those who arent too proud.

This means the cost to get into Research doesnt cost anything... if you have a friend willing to let you use thier equipment, and even sometimes material... (i have heard of this happening...)

A perfect example of what your talking about is the infamous Q-motor thread, my dumbss said 2000.00 early on.. It got roasted... then the conversation evolved, and other people were back at the 2000.00 number....

I think it should go without saying that when you start any project you need to do costing, would you start building a deck without pricing wood and screws??

Tony's point was that my 600.00 number was way too high, as relates to what he spent. we are obviously spending differnt ammounts of money on the same things, and even buying different things. He thought my number would discourage some into the research arena... maybe it would...

Bob K, added the cost of doing ex even includes the risk of making a bad motor to cause your cato, and cost the rocket and electronics... personaly had commercial motors cato, so i dont put that cost into research myself. its just part of rocketry.

In rocketry - you dont always get what you pay for....

ClayD said:

you dont need expensive electronics for a L3, Adept has a 22.00 dual deploy altimeter!
you could even probably do a timed ejection on the 19.00 timer as backup...depending on your tap.

Click to expand...

As I was walking back to my camp after my successful 3rd level shot Pius Morizumi said something to the effect that what was intended is that altimeters be used for the rocket. As mine had two timers I retorted that NASA doesn't use altimeters, every event is timed to the milisecond. The Robbie's Rockets Micronta based timer and the Radio Shack timers both fired with the Robbie's timer as a back-up. The one I built was pretty cheap, $20, but it was an 0n-triggering off-on circuit. My friend Paul Duel made up the off circuit that prevented the fireing of the ejection charge when armed. We used magnetic reed switches to complete the circuits. What I didn't know was that 12 volts would weld the contacts so the next time I used the timer.....

Well, here's what I got:

I am going to get one of the Research Packages from Rockets 'R Us.
I will also be getting an AMW 54/1400 case.

I will not be doing flights just yet. I want to get my motors to a safe reliability, then possibly go to a launch and see if anyone wants to fly my motors, by chance.

I don't care about L3, and I don't really plan to be going there any time soon (no offense! Just money!)

Thus, altimeters, pad cost, making an L3 rocket, etc, really don't matter much to me.

So, with the above data, I could probably get into research for about $150-200, right?

Agent Titan said:

Well, here's what I got:

I am going to get one of the Research Packages from Rockets 'R Us.
I will also be getting an AMW 54/1400 case.

I will not be doing flights just yet. I want to get my motors to a safe reliability, then possibly go to a launch and see if anyone wants to fly my motors, by chance.

I don't care about L3, and I don't really plan to be going there any time soon (no offense! Just money!)

Thus, altimeters, pad cost, making an L3 rocket, etc, really don't matter much to me.

So, with the above data, I could probably get into research for about $150-200, right?

Click to expand...

I'd give that a definite yes. For chemicals, try finding some people in a club that also do research and ask if you can watch them mix. You'll get some idea of what you need to buy and they might even tell you who to go to in your area for a deal. No sense in spending $10/pound in AP, that's ridiculous.

My first "H" EX motor was my first HPR EX motor and it used an AT case and nozzle. Not including the cost of the case (since it's reusable unless it explodes) I probably spent less than $10 dollars on it, and total, after buying bulk chemicals, the case, o-rings, (started turning my own nozzles for maybe 50 cents a piece), I spent around $150 and had enough to make a plethora of grains.

Okay, thanks. As this doesn't really have much to do with research, where did you get the material to turn *ahem* pieces?

If I can, I would like to throw a couple of questions in here...

1) I have ordered David Sleeter's book and was wondering if anybody had read it and if it is any good. My understanding it is more about BP motors and mechanics, so how relevant is it to AP and other composite propellants.

2) If one makes their own propellant and crafts some grains, where can they launch them? Does it have to be an organized event like a Tripoli EX launch? Can I take a home made F to the park (dump) where I normally launch my midpowers? Will my club let me launch EX (MP or HP) at a club launch, or would only certified motors be welcomed?

For #2, NAR doesn't allow it at all, but if you're in Tripoli, you must be L2 before you can do EX.

cdondanville said:

If I can, I would like to throw a couple of questions in here...

1) I have ordered David Sleeter's book and was wondering if anybody had read it and if it is any good. My understanding it is more about BP motors and mechanics, so how relevant is it to AP and other composite propellants.

2) If one makes their own propellant and crafts some grains, where can they launch them? Does it have to be an organized event like a Tripoli EX launch? Can I take a home made F to the park (dump) where I normally launch my midpowers? Will my club let me launch EX (MP or HP) at a club launch, or would only certified motors be welcomed?

Click to expand...

We fly EX motors at launches that aren't sanctioned by Tripoli (well, they will be now, so I guess the rules will be more strictly enforced) but we did have our own waiver. A buddy of mine makes his own black powder motors and flies them at our local park all the time.


Braden

As long as we are getting all specific about costs, I would like to see someone talk about the legal details.

Is it really legal to mix stuff like this at your home?, when I am sure most of you guys live in typical suburban settings (another house 10 feet across the side property line to each side, a street 30-40 feet out front, house well within city limits, etc) Has your insurance agent given the OK to pursue this hobby at home? What about the local fire marshal?

I'll bet your city prohibits home manufacture of fireworks/explosives/rocket motors/pyrotechnics (without even bringing up the storage of the chemicals)

I'll bet your motor-building takes place in a location that violates federal requirements (for set-back from inhabited structures, from local roads, etc)

I'll bet your home insurance would be null and void in the event of an accident-with-chemical-fire as soon as the firemen told the insurance people you were making rocket propellant

So, what is the cost of some acreage and some new outbuildings to do this legally?

Powderburner, our property is well set away from any other people (about 3/4 to 1 mile), and there is a very low fire risk where we would be testing.

powderburner said:

As long as we are getting all specific about costs, I would like to see someone talk about the legal details.

I'll bet your home insurance would be null and void in the event of an accident-with-chemical-fire as soon as the firemen told the insurance people you were making rocket propellant

Click to expand...

Just put it next to the gasoline can in the garage. Leup lets u put 50lbs of low explosives in an attached garage. Not that you need that for rocket making from what i hear.

Then when theres nothing left, the fireman cant say there was a chemikal fire..

Honestly, I don't think there are any legal issues to be hashed out.. everyone here has thier own fingerprint, and different legal situation...

Liability... thats just like anything else.. do what you want, don't what you dont want....

Mixing in your house... is slightly irresponslible IMO....

ClayD said:

Just put it next to the gasoline can in the garage. Leup lets u put 50lbs of low explosives in an attached garage. Not that you need that for rocket making from what i hear.

Then when theres nothing left, the fireman cant say there was a chemikal fire..

Honestly, I don't think there are any legal issues to be hashed out.. everyone here has thier own fingerprint, and different legal situation...

Liability... thats just like anything else.. do what you want, don't what you dont want....

Mixing in your house... is slightly irresponslible IMO....

Click to expand...

Honestly Clay do you think everyone is that stupid.

Depending on where you live, and what you're doing, there are always legal issues. They may not be federal issues, but there are certainly state and local ordinances, and even community covenants that can prevent you from making your own propellants.

You also need to give the fire investigators a bit more credit. It's not that hard to determine what caused a fire.

If you live out in the country or the suburbs, and it not prohibited by local laws, you probably can make your own motors outside away from your house or in an outbuilding, however I certainly would check my insurance policy first to make sure an accident would be covered. Just remember the first goal of an insurance company is to make money, not to pay claims.

Bob

Setting yourself up to make and burn a static motor in the field is the best way to be in compliance of laws. If your place is outside of city limits that's good or have a suitable place to test. Having to aquire the things needed for a remote testing site will enable you to do it at an experimental launch. If you make it to Black Rock research or Tripoli Idaho Research launchs I'm planning to offer airframes to test motors, I just need a bigger rocket

Agent Titan said:

I have a quick question about research. I have looked around, and can't find really any official rules about creating EX/Research/Amateur motors. I know that I can't fly them without an L2 license, and only at Tripoli/Research launches.

My question is, can I make and ground test motors without a permit?

Click to expand...

Yes. As long as you do it on your own property well away from the general public. Somewhere outside of any town, rural or isolated property would be best.

Above is the right answer for where I live, Texas. The laws where you live? I have no idea. This will require a lot of time and research on your part. Each state or county, province or parish in each state can be different.

If you were to start a grass fire with motor testing in Texas today, I'd be willing to bet that some one somewhere would dig up a law you were breaking. This is due to the current drought and burn bans in place all over the state.

Find someone in your state that is familiar with the law, and ask them.

bobkrech said:

Honestly Clay do you think everyone is that stupid.

Depending on where you live, and what you're doing, there are always legal issues. They may not be federal issues, but there are certainly state and local ordinances, and even community covenants that can prevent you from making your own propellants.

You also need to give the fire investigators a bit more credit. It's not that hard to determine what caused a fire.

If you live out in the country or the suburbs, and it not prohibited by local laws, you probably can make your own motors outside away from your house or in an outbuilding, however I certainly would check my insurance policy first to make sure an accident would be covered. Just remember the first goal of an insurance company is to make money, not to pay claims.

Bob

Click to expand...

Yes, Bob I can rest aSSured, everyone IS that stupid.

https://youtu.be/gG8CMnV41Hg
(caution-vulgar language, and brief scene involving beer)

My point was not fireinvestigators, but IMO, if your ammo canning it in your garage, when you add that to a fire and some gasoline nearby for a mower... you have enough energy to set your house to a coal pile...
I happen to be one of the guys that goes and inspects failures from fire, earthquakes, snow/ice, and even naders....
So, i know they can see the gasoline fire areas, and where the metals would have been.. (weather or not the squirl chewing on the wires caused the fire or not)- seen first hands results of that one...

My point on legal issues, is that no one has the same issue.. so discussing it just muddies the water for people looking into doing this.
I live where theres no city jurisdiction... soooo.. I only look at state laws... and none control rocketry motor making..

For liability risk - insurance, where i mix can burn to a crisp warm coal pile, and i wont flinch... sure as heck not having a claim.....maybe grab a hose, and keep it from starting a grass fire.. or spreading on my property
Its not really combustable.. so i am not toooo worried.
*(like quick burst said... droughts and burn bans... ) - As i suggest before, mix somewhere you wont mind if it burns down...

Also, store where if it does catch fire... if fireman douse with water..... ooops...
some metalics can be explosive to mosture.. soooo.. this means that if your house does have a fire, as soon as the firemen add water its game over...
I believe this happened to Aerotech.???

Being that people are responding to a minor.(i think, and if i am wrong please correct me).. it's ultimately his parents responsibility to make sure he should do this in the first place, all law and liability aside...
the answer should only be DUDE : get with your parents, Ask an attorney to look over your Policy and double check your in compliance with your situation.
Let them decide if its okay for your to set yourself on fire, and burn down thier property- legal/risk wise. - should be the only answer.

Heres what my wife said this morning when i emailed her a copy of what i am planning to order: - 600.00 is going to be close.. (its from my favorite movie)