First upscale. Am I doing this right?

Hello there, I am new here and going to attempt my first upscale project. I am going to be upscaling the Estes Nova Payloader (original red and white Nova). I have put toghether a list of supplies I am going to order and also have a few questions in regards to suggestions or recommendations. I am going to be upscaling the Nova from the BT-50 to BT-60, here are the parts list I have came up with thus far (all parts are from Semroc Astronautics)...

Main Body and Payload Bay
BT-60KF 16.1"
BT-60R 6.7"
T12 Light Protector Clear Tubing (for payload bay) cut to 6.7"

Body Connectors
Hollow Coupler BT-60 (JT-960C)
Tube Connector (For payload) BT-60

Nose Cone
BNC-60Y 7.25"

Launch Lug
1/8" x2.00" (x6 pack)

Screw Eye
1" (x6 pack)

The questions I have about the rest I need are these...

What size Chute Pak should I go with? 16" or 18" (or smaller/larger)?

I am going to go with balsa for the fins, which sheet thickness should I order to cut the upscalled fins out of?

The engine mount on Semroc I was thinking of going with was the #9 to BT-60 mount. It is 24mmx3.75" and I believe it comes with everything I am going to need to use 24mm motors. It looks like this is a full kit that included everything to assemble it and install it in the BT-60 body. Anyone know if this is correct? Does this sound like a good engine choice for the rocket?

Should I go with kevlar thread or elastic cord for the Chute Pak hook up to the body? I am not real sure there which is better.

This is where I am at right now, I do not think I am forgetting anything but if I am and you notice please advise. I am going to be looking into upscalled decals to match the originals after the build and paint is complete. I know there is a few members here that can sell those to me. Thanks in advance for the information! I am excited to give this build a shot and just want to make sure when I order I am getting what I need and doing it right!

One more thing I forgot to add. The upscale ratio says the new body tube should go from 12.7" to 21.3". The two body tubes I have listed above are going to give me a total length of 21.1" instead of 21.3". My other option would be to go with...

BT-60AE 14.25"
BT-60k 7.00"

Giving me 21.25", rather than 21.1" stated above. I may do that, I don't know. It is such a small amount I don't think it should matter much. The price difference is only about $0.05 I believe. I know I could get a extra long tube of BT-60 but for my first one I think I am going to just piece two tubes toghether with the hollow coupler rather than order a larger one and cut it down. Just my preference I guess.

Without pulling out the calculator to check, everything seems reasonable so far.

I would strongly consider moving to 3/16 or 1/4" launch lugs. 1/8" would be OK, but with the more powerful 24mm motors available, having a sturdier launch rod would be beneficial.

tsai said:

Without pulling out the calculator to check, everything seems reasonable so far.

I would strongly consider moving to 3/16 or 1/4" launch lugs. 1/8" would be OK, but with the more powerful 24mm motors available, having a sturdier launch rod would be beneficial.

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I had thought about that. On my parts sheet I actually wrote down both the 1/8" and the 3/16", not being sure which I would go with yet. The price difference is so minimal I think I will grab the 3/16" instead just because you mentioned it. Thanks!

I wouldn't worry about the tube length being exactly 21.3" if I were you. What you have will be close enough.

YeahImJosh said:

The questions I have about the rest I need are these...

What size Chute Pak should I go with? 16" or 18" (or smaller/larger)?

Does this sound like a good engine choice for the rocket?

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Depends, if you are flying on an E engine, to say 1400 feet then choose the smaller chute so it wont get lost. If you are flying to 700 on a D motor then the larger chute might be better. If you are flying to 400 on a C11 then the 18 would be good. Remember to design your recovery system so that you can swap out chutes easily.

24 mm motors are a good choice for that size of rocket. I would fly it once or twice on a C11 before trying a D. Dont use an E if you have a small field or the wind is blowing strong.

Have fun

Aksrockets said:

Depends, if you are flying on an E engine, to say 1400 feet then choose the smaller chute so it wont get lost. If you are flying to 700 on a D motor then the larger chute might be better. If you are flying to 400 on a C11 then the 18 would be good. Remember to design your recovery system so that you can swap out chutes easily.

24 mm motors are a good choice for that size of rocket. I would fly it once or twice on a C11 before trying a D. Dont use an E if you have a small field or the wind is blowing strong.

Have fun

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Thanks for the information. So 24mm is probably the best choice then? I thought about using 18mm but thought that may be a little under powered for the size of the rocket. If I wanted to run a 18mm I could always use some sort of adapter couldnt I?

YeahImJosh said:

Thanks for the information. So 24mm is probably the best choice then? I thought about using 18mm but thought that may be a little under powered for the size of the rocket. If I wanted to run a 18mm I could always use some sort of adapter couldnt I?

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Yes, you can use an 18mm adapter, however the only estes engine i would be comfortable is the C6. I wouldnt use anything smaller then a C in this rocket. A really great flight would be on a Aerotech D engine. The only problem is that it would hit about 1000' and you would have a greater chance of losing it.

Also, kevlar or elastic? Kevlar is very strong (stronger then metal of the same size) but it is more expensive. Kevar would be a nice thing to have in a smaller rocket but elastic works well to. So in my opinion kevlar is a great alternative to elastic but in small rockets it can be unnessasary. Anyway ive never had an elastic cord break or melt.

YeahImJosh said:

My other option would be to go with...

BT-60AE 14.25"
BT-60k 7.00"

Giving me 21.25", rather than 21.1" stated above. I may do that, I don't know. It is such a small amount I don't think it should matter much. The price difference is only about $0.05 I believe. I know I could get a extra long tube of BT-60 but for my first one I think I am going to just piece two tubes toghether with the hollow coupler rather than order a larger one and cut it down. Just my preference I guess.

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You're in luck! It just so happens that 21.25" = 21.3". (It's model rocket math.) So your second option there nails the length perfectly (more or less).

Published dimensions are often rounded to knock off one or more decimal places. But even if the 21.3" dimension was exactly right, being short by 1/20 of an inch is certainly not going to be noticeable. Your first option, which left you 0.2" off, would be much less desirable, since that can be a visible discrepancy to some folks, and it's so unnecessary since you have a much better option available.

Measuring tubes to odd or unusual fractional lengths is not all that difficult. That's a subject for another post in your other thread.

MarkII said:

You're in luck! It just so happens that 21.25" = 21.3". (It's model rocket math.) So your second option there nails the length perfectly (more or less).

Published dimensions are often rounded to knock off one or more decimal places. But even if the 21.3" dimension was exactly right, being short by 1/20 of an inch is certainly not going to be noticeable. Your first option, which left you 0.2" off, would be much less desirable, since that can be a visible discrepancy to some folks, and it's so unnecessary since you have a much better option available.

Measuring tubes to odd or unusual fractional lengths is not all that difficult. That's a subject for another post in your other thread.

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Your other option is to get a 34" tube from Semroc or BMS and cut it to length.

Nobody will notice a little bit of difference in tube length.

If you put 3/16" lugs on it you can still launch it from 1/8" rods. For that size rocket you should put 2 lugs on it.

Thanks for the information everyone! I am going to be starting this build in around two weeks or so. I will post my progress in this thread if anyone is interested!

YeahImJosh said:

Thanks for the information everyone! I am going to be starting this build in around two weeks or so. I will post my progress in this thread if anyone is interested!

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We like lots of pictures posted to go along with the commentary!

Which of these uncut balsa sheet x3 pack should I go with for the Nova Payloader BT-60 upscale?

https://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=65

YeahImJosh said:

Which of these uncut balsa sheet x3 pack should I go with for the Nova Payloader BT-60 upscale?

https://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=65

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if I was you I'd either go with the 1/8 balsa or the1/8 basswood. Put a paper skin on the fins. You can find a great vid on how to do this at apogee components.

Aksrockets said:

if I was you I'd either go with the 1/8 balsa or the1/8 basswood. Put a paper skin on the fins. You can find a great vid on how to do this at apogee components.

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So the 1/8th should be thick enough for the rocket? I would like to go with balsa.

YeahImJosh said:

So the 1/8th should be thick enough for the rocket? I would like to go with balsa.

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The Estes #1291 Maxi Alpha (not the Maxi Alpha 3) had 1/8" thick balsa fins and was similar in length to your Nova Payloader upscale. The M. A. had a BT-80 airframe and was just over 33" tall. Those fins weren't dainty. I built a clone of this rocket a few years ago and I elected to paper the fins, but the rocket could be built with uncovered, unreinforced fins and be just fine. Are you familiar with the three main grades of balsa? Sheets of balsa are assigned grades based upon where in the balsa log the sheet was cut. "A" grain is cut parallel to the grain and is very flexible across the sheet's grain. "C" grain is cut across the grain (end grain) and is very stiff. It is also usually the hardest type; some sheets are so hard that you might doubt that they are really balsa. For rocket fins, you want to use C grain balsa. Semroc uses high quality balsa for its fins, so I would imagine that their fin stock is similar. You could use basswood, but you would pay a penalty in extra weight. One-eighth inch thick basswood is really tough stuff as far as lightweight non-plywood fin stock goes, and for a BT-60 sized rocket, it might be overkill. (I have used it on rockets that were almost twice as large in girth.) So if you do decide to use basswood, you could probably go with thinner stock.

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The Estes #2018/#2165 Super Big Bertha was also BT-80 based and was 36.5" tall. It had the characteristic Bertha-style fins (long, narrow and deeply swept), and they were also made from 1/8" thick balsa.

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Thank you for all of the detailed info MarkII, I am going to go with the 1/8 inch balsa sheets from semroc. Probably going to place the order tonight for just about everything I need and get this upscale started!

Another option for fin stock, especially for upscales, is my favorite fin material: 1/16" thick birch (aka aircraft) plywood. (Note: this is not so-called "lite-ply.") Plywood has a reputation of being much heavier in weight than other types of wood for fins, but you have to get to much thicker sheets before that becomes really noticeable. Birch, or aircraft, plywood is much better-made than the type of plywood that is used in home construction and is usually smooth finished on both sides. Compared to other types of wood used for fins, one-sixteenth inch thick birch plywood is very hard and very stiff, but is much lighter in weight than similarly-thick fiberglass sheet. Fins that are made with it slice through the air with less drag than thicker balsa or basswood fins, while still being stiffer and stronger. I get mine from National Balsa. It's not the perfect solution to every situation, but it is surprisingly useful, I have found.

YeahImJosh said:

Thank you for all of the detailed info MarkII, I am going to go with the 1/8 inch balsa sheets from semroc. Probably going to place the order tonight for just about everything I need and get this upscale started!

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Great choice. Balsa is easier to work with than the plywood that I just mentioned above, and good hard balsa should work out quite well for your project.

If you are having fun doing it, you are doing it right....