Discussion of Trip's Tolerance Article

[troj]

Why did I post this?

Because I agree 100% with what Trip has to say, and I think it applies not only within NAR, but also within Tripoli, and various other national organizations, as well as across organizations.

As I told Trip in my email to him, I've never understood the folks who disparage the type of rocketry someone else chooses to participate in, just because it doesn't interest them. If it makes 'em happy, it's legal, and they do it safely, then more power to them!

-Kevin

[G2Rockets]

I agree as well. I feel that I have been lucky enough to be a part of of two prefectures that really act the way described by Trip. I don't say that to make Troj's head swell, Or even Bobs and the others from both Thor And Kloudbusters. I have attended launches at THOR for 5 or 6 years and Kloudbusters for 2, and never has anyone made me or my family feel that they aren't welcome because of the rockets they fly.

I think it's good that Trip reminds us why we do what we do.

Thanks for posting this Kevin.

[JAL3]

Bravo!

I think the original essay is well stated.

I do most of my flying with an NAR section that has a wide diversity of interestes but most of what we launch is LPR because of our field size. Occasionally we make field trips and launch with other clubs, both NAR and TRA. In Texas, I have seen clubs that stripped down their LPR pads to field repair HPR equipment, thereby sending dozens of LPR flyers home for the benefit of 2 HPR fliers. I have seen attempts to "requisition" privately owned LPR equipment for the same reason: let us use it for HPR or leave the field.

It works the other way too but I have not seen as man examples. I do know people who have replied disdainfully to excited young people that HPR is for "testosterone drenched fools who are inadequate in other areas of their lives".

We are all out to have a good time. That goes for all aspects of the hobby. I doubt any of us spend the time and money because "its just a job"; we do it for fun and should allow other to do the same.

My wife cannot see the attraction and is bored silly by it all. I feel the same way about some of her pursuits but hope she is happy pursuing them (and that there is $$ left over for a few motors).

Bravo to Trip for writing the essay.

Bravo to Troj for posting it.

[G2Rockets]

Bravo!

In Texas, I have seen clubs that stripped down their LPR pads to field repair HPR equipment, thereby sending dozens of LPR flyers home for the benefit of 2 HPR fliers. I have seen attempts to "requisition" privately owned LPR equipment for the same reason: let us use it for HPR or leave the field.

It is extremely hard for me to imagine any one doing that! That is unacceptable!! I hope those are the ones who read the essay.

[rstaff3]

That was a great article, thanks for posting it Troj. I am happy to say that I have never seen HPR snobbery at MDRA. We have a bunch of folks who build big honkin' rockets and they will cheer on a kid with a small LPR rocket along with the big HPR stuff. That is true whether the kids are 8 or 56. The only preferential treatment is that the HPR pads are often flown first because of the electronics.

[cjl]

That's an excellent article - thanks for posting it. I absolutely agree - I've definitely seen the sentiment that HPR is all dangerous and should be outlawed, and I've also seen the sentiment that LPR shouldn't be bothered with. Both bug me, and this article is an excellent plea for equal treatment regardless of rocket size.

[sylvie369]

Pretty much all of the WOOSH guys who fly HPR - including the L3s - also fly model rockets, and pretty often. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any who don't, though I suppose there probably is someone. We have quite a few LPR only folks, several of whom have modeling skills that absolutely blow me away.

It's funny to see new LPR fliers come up to fly almost apologetically - I don't think it would ever occur to any of us to look down on someone for flying LPR. I'm L2, and I fly electronic gizmos that I design and build myself, but I'm also building a Semroc Little Joe II, an Astron Spaceman, and a Flis Fric-n-Frac. And I still think that the Orbital Transport is the coolest rocket ever.

[edwinshap1]

yup, i got the Rocketry magazine, and i completely agreed with it

[jFlds]

This is what it is about, community. Building it, nurturing the future of the hobby and paying it forward all things we all should do.

We fly it all and we try to help out as much as possible with them all.

Don't get me wrong, I love putting up a 'J' but there's still something special about loading up a dozen C6-5's with the kids that just remains as exciting as it ever was and fun.

Trip has been nothing but positive for the NAR and enjoyable to read.

[ghrocketman]

Agree with the statement, with the following caveat:
Would like the Diversity and Tolerance statement to be all inclusive in regards to ANY and ALL EX activity as well.
That is one area that NAR seems to be stubbornly unwilling to support in any way, shape, or form.
For them to single this out as some sort of taboo with the rest supposed to be perfectly fine strikes me a a bit more than just a touch hypocritical.
Whether the powers that be a NAR like it or not, that is an important area of our hobby. Like it or not, hobbyists can and DO relatively safely mix small batches of APCP and other non-BP propellants in their garage.

[luke strawwalker]

Why did I post this?

Because I agree 100% with what Trip has to say, and I think it applies not only within NAR, but also within Tripoli, and various other national organizations, as well as across organizations.

As I told Trip in my email to him, I've never understood the folks who disparage the type of rocketry someone else chooses to participate in, just because it doesn't interest them. If it makes 'em happy, it's legal, and they do it safely, then more power to them!

-Kevin

Agree with the sentiments, but with the highlighted caveat above...

Not knocking HPR, but I *have* seen some things that give me pause or make me shake my head...

That's not to say that LPR doesn't ever have anything go wrong-- far from it! It's just an order of magnitude more dangerous when it's a BIG HPR rocket that goes wrong... that's all...

Safety should ALWAYS be #1...

Later! OL JR

[ghrocketman]

Safety first ???
C'mon now; thats why almost all toys are now boring.
We actually had little LEAD FURNACES to cast figurines when we were kids.
Rolled metallic mercury around on the lab bench in jr.high after reducing mercuric oxide in a test tube.
Used formaldehyde in bio labs in HS.
Used BENZENE and Carbon Tetrachloride in HS Chem Lab.
Burned Leaded fuel in our NO-Airbag cars while NEVER wearing seatbelts to GLEEFULLY motor down the roads featuring far less traffic patrol HARASSMENT.
AND LIKED IT and SURVIVED instead of being mamby-pambys that were in constant fear of not being Uber-Safe !

In my book, fun is #1, thrill is #2, and safety is MAYBE #3.
When putting effort into safety detracts AT ALL from the fun, I throw it out; REALLY !

Have you ever heard ANY fans say "Boy that Jimmie Johnson sure runs a SAFE race" or "Geez, that UFC fight sure was a safe fair bout" ?
NO, because it is BORING and would NEVER generate a fanbase.

As risk averse as the mainstream mamby-pamby average member of society is, it's a wonder the Daisy BB gun company has not gone out of business.

[RangerStl]

Safety first ???
C'mon now; thats why almost all toys are now boring.
We actually had little LEAD FURNACES to cast figurines when we were kids.
Rolled metallic mercury around on the lab bench in jr.high after reducing mercuric oxide in a test tube.
Used formaldehyde in bio labs in HS.
Used BENZENE and Carbon Tetrachloride in HS Chem Lab.
Burned Leaded fuel in our NO-Airbag cars while NEVER wearing seatbelts to GLEEFULLY motor down the roads featuring far less traffic patrol HARASSMENT.
AND LIKED IT and SURVIVED instead of being mamby-pambys that were in constant fear of not being Uber-Safe !

In my book, fun is #1, thrill is #2, and safety is MAYBE #3.
When putting effort into safety detracts AT ALL from the fun, I throw it out; REALLY !

Have you ever heard ANY fans say "Boy that Jimmie Johnson sure runs a SAFE race" or "Geez, that UFC fight sure was a safe fair bout" ?
NO, because it is BORING and would NEVER generate a fanbase.

As risk averse as the mainstream mamby-pamby average member of society is, it's a wonder the Daisy BB gun company has not gone out of business.

*sigh*

I tried to write a thoughtful, non-inflammatory, non-offensive rebuttal to these ludicrous statements, but I realized something.

You write your own best rebuttals every time you post something like this.

Keep posting away.

[KennB]

*sigh*

I tried to write a thoughtful, non-inflammatory, non-offensive rebuttal to these ludicrous statements, but I realized something.

You write your own best rebuttals every time you post something like this.

Keep posting away.

Thank you, Ranger, for your response. GH's tags show a lot about his philosophy and his posts back all that up. I'm glad he has places and people he can do his thing around but I'm even happier I hang with the NAR-types that move safety up the list.

I go to our launches with the idea that I'm going to have fun and support everyone else's attempt to have fun. If I decided I wasn't going to enjoy myself there, I'm sure I could make myself miserable, too. I most like being able to come back for the next launch.

While I'm at it, thanks to Trip for the article and to Troj for sharing it with us.

[ghrocketman]

Nothing ludicrous about my statements.
I don't live in fear, nor am I willing to sacrifice my enjoyment for safety.
Don't even ask how I feel about agencies like CPSC, OSHA, and others designed to protect idiots that SHOULD be weeded out of the gene pool.

[ClayD]

I'm glad he has places and people he can do his thing around but I'm even happier I hang with the NAR-types that move safety up the list.

Soo, you dont fly on TRA fields? or are the TRA-types all on the darwin award list.

I instantly liked this article... it reminds me why I am flying rockets. I've flown everthting from 1/2a to 8900ns. I got some micro maxx and going to give that a shot and hopefully I can break 50kns in a few years(yes in 1 motor)...
the gratification of sucess is the same no matter what is in the tailipipe, or what the vehicle is made of. Albeit, the nerves get a little more jolted with the further you push it in respect to the investment on the line. But, seeing your son just BURST with energy usually much more energy than the rocket had is by far the most fun to watch...

[troj]

But, seeing your son just BURST with energy usually much more energy than the rocket had is by far the most fun to watch...

I couldn't agree more!

Matter of fact, here's the email I sent to Trip, immediately after reading his article:

Trip...

I wanted to take a minute and respond to your comments in the most recent issue of Sport Rocketry, and let you know that I cannot agree with you more!

I've never understood the folks who disparage the type of rocketry someone else chooses to participate in, just because it doesn't interest them. If it makes 'em happy, it's legal, and they do it safely, then more power to them!

In our club, we have members who fly only low power, members who fly only high power, and lots of us who fly across the gamut. Much of what I do, myself, is high power. Yet the most fun I have launching rockets is when I take my 7 year old son out, and the two of us fly his rockets. At the age of 5, he already knew how to put a rocket on the pad, and hook up the igniter leads. It's hard to beat watching his excitement as he counts down, pushes the button, then goes chasing after the rocket.

It's on par with the level of excitement we saw with some of the teams at SLI, which is why I'm so committed to that program.

Anyway, your comments were dead-on, and I hope they bring a few folks around to showing a bit more tolerance of the participation of others.

-Kevin

FWIW, I also agree in regards to tolerance in regards to Research. As long as it's done safely and legally, folks shouldn't be receiving negative comments from others in the hobby. NAR, Tripoli, CAR, UKRA, and who knows who else -- they all have safety codes in place, and those safety codes work.

-Kevin

[ScrapDaddy]

Wow, the world is pretty messed up if racism applies to rocketry as well...

[billspad]

Agree with the statement, with the following caveat:
Would like the Diversity and Tolerance statement to be all inclusive in regards to ANY and ALL EX activity as well.
That is one area that NAR seems to be stubbornly unwilling to support in any way, shape, or form.
For them to single this out as some sort of taboo with the rest supposed to be perfectly fine strikes me a a bit more than just a touch hypocritical.
Whether the powers that be a NAR like it or not, that is an important area of our hobby. Like it or not, hobbyists can and DO relatively safely mix small batches of APCP and other non-BP propellants in their garage.

There are valid reasons for the NAR not having an EX program. A lot of it has to do with insurance and the use of limited resources. TRA seems to have done a good job of covering this aspect of the hobby so it's pointless to duplicate their effort considering the small number of people involved.

I don't hear the NAR saying anything negative about EX and at least one NAR trustee is an EX guy (he's also a TRA member).

[G2Rockets]

Wow, the world is pretty messed up if racism applies to rocketry as well...

I presume you are refering to me. There is always someone who takes things out of context. I hadn't even thought of that till after I posted it. Then I thought surely everyone here is smart enough to know what I meant, but apparently not!!! So, what I meant was that maybe there is way too much instigation going on. Kind of like someone reading something into a post that isn't there.

How about this photo

[cmosky]

"We actually had little LEAD FURNACES to cast figurines when we were kids.
Rolled metallic mercury around on the lab bench in jr.high after reducing mercuric oxide in a test tube. Used formaldehyde in bio labs in HS.
Used BENZENE and Carbon Tetrachloride in HS Chem Lab."


Lead, benzene, mercury--all cause brain damage. Your admission that you had close contact with these explains so much! This is a forum and you are certainly free to express your opinions. However, in fairness to others I would suggest you getting your own waiver, your own insurance, and your own launch site. Since you have such contempt for the safety rules of our national organizations this would allow you to do as you choose without jeopardizing the safety record that NAR & TRA have worked so hard to achieve. Also, by flying alone you would only expose yourself to your cavalier attitude on safety!

[eugenefl]

Safety first ???
C'mon now; thats why almost all toys are now boring.
We actually had little LEAD FURNACES to cast figurines when we were kids.
Rolled metallic mercury around on the lab bench in jr.high after reducing mercuric oxide in a test tube.
Used formaldehyde in bio labs in HS.
Used BENZENE and Carbon Tetrachloride in HS Chem Lab.
Burned Leaded fuel in our NO-Airbag cars while NEVER wearing seatbelts to GLEEFULLY motor down the roads featuring far less traffic patrol HARASSMENT.
AND LIKED IT and SURVIVED instead of being mamby-pambys that were in constant fear of not being Uber-Safe !

In my book, fun is #1, thrill is #2, and safety is MAYBE #3.
When putting effort into safety detracts AT ALL from the fun, I throw it out; REALLY !

Have you ever heard ANY fans say "Boy that Jimmie Johnson sure runs a SAFE race" or "Geez, that UFC fight sure was a safe fair bout" ?
NO, because it is BORING and would NEVER generate a fanbase.

As risk averse as the mainstream mamby-pamby average member of society is, it's a wonder the Daisy BB gun company has not gone out of business.

I don't think you'll get a single person on here to support your opinion in regards to being ignorant of common sense safety in order to attract more fans to the hobby, but I think the crowd you want to go be angry with is the legal "sue everyone under the sun" types. Frivolous lawsuits generally create over-regulation and over-the-top "safety" which evidently takes away from the fun, not the practical observance of safety. I think you are highly misinformed on the importance of safe rocketry. In your spare time, go be unsafe and film your achievements for all to see on YouTube.

FYI, Jimmie Johnson is actually a very SAFE race car driver and is VERY boring to watch.

[roadkill]

FYI, Jimmie Johnson is actually a very SAFE race car driver and is VERY boring to watch.

Yea, making only left hand turns for 500 miles
tends to do that....

[ghrocketman]

Jimmie Johnson was a bad example.
Should have said Kurt Busch or Cale Yarbourough.

[luke strawwalker]

Safety first ???
C'mon now; thats why almost all toys are now boring.
We actually had little LEAD FURNACES to cast figurines when we were kids.
Rolled metallic mercury around on the lab bench in jr.high after reducing mercuric oxide in a test tube.
Used formaldehyde in bio labs in HS.
Used BENZENE and Carbon Tetrachloride in HS Chem Lab.
Burned Leaded fuel in our NO-Airbag cars while NEVER wearing seatbelts to GLEEFULLY motor down the roads featuring far less traffic patrol HARASSMENT.
AND LIKED IT and SURVIVED instead of being mamby-pambys that were in constant fear of not being Uber-Safe !

In my book, fun is #1, thrill is #2, and safety is MAYBE #3.
When putting effort into safety detracts AT ALL from the fun, I throw it out; REALLY !

Have you ever heard ANY fans say "Boy that Jimmie Johnson sure runs a SAFE race" or "Geez, that UFC fight sure was a safe fair bout" ?
NO, because it is BORING and would NEVER generate a fanbase.

As risk averse as the mainstream mamby-pamby average member of society is, it's a wonder the Daisy BB gun company has not gone out of business.

Not what I'm talking about GH... as I've told you before... I'm talking about SAFETY NOT STUPIDITY...

Doing "stunts" or trying something completely untested with virtually NO chance of success, or needlessly cutting corners and putting EVERYBODY (at least more than yourself) at risk (and the hobby at risk of letigious/over-regulator types) isn't "fun", it's STUPID.

Stuff like installing 'remove before flight' pull-pin shunts to isolate BP charges from the electronics until the rocket is safely set up on the pad, or having a shunt to disable ignitor circuits on upper stages (AND RE-INSERTING THEM) before lowering a rocket back to horizontal on the launcher for repairs, prepping ejection charges and electronics with the nosecone pointed AWAY from spectators and unsuspecting rocketeers in the next EZ-UP beside your car, stuff like that, IS NOT GOING TO TAKE THE FUN OUT OF WHAT WE DO. IT'S JUST COMMON SENSE AND A RESPONSIBLE SAFETY ATTITUDE.

If that's too much trouble for someone to go to so they ensure the safety of their flight, those around them, and the hobby in general, then they probably shouldn't be flying rockets!

Yes, there's still PLENTY of stuff that can go wrong-- I'm not saying that complete 100% "no incidents at all" can ever be achieved... what I AM saying is that mistakes caused by poor decision making, go fever, laziness, or stupidity is simply not excusable. Breaking rules for breaking rules sake is just dumb. I'm not saying we need TONS of rules, but we need COMMON SENSE RULES, and we need to stick to them! Things like not allowing sparkies to be flown on a field covered with dry crop stubble, REGARDLESS OF WHO WANTS TO LAUNCH THEM OR HOW "GOOD" THE REASON IS... stuff like that... Not saying a fire will NEVER happen; we all as intelligent people understand that... but taking certain risks is just DUMB!

I don't see the entertainment value of 'near misses'... "no harm, no foul" type accidents are LEARNING OPPORTUNITIES, not "hey that was cool, Butthead!" type moments. We can laugh with relief when it's over and whatever went wrong resulted in a no harm/no foul moment, but if we don't LEARN from such mistakes, and especially if we NEEDLESSLY or INTENTIONALLY repeat such a mistake, then we really lower our standing, IMHO....

I've made my share of mistakes, to be SURE, but I try to learn from them. That's all I'm saying. I'm sure I'll make more than a few more before I shuffle off this old world, but at least I'll try to minimize them.

Walk around a farm show sometime and see how that "devil may care, nothing bad's gonna happen" attitude of yours GH affects people... You'll see more than a few farmers wondering around with missing digits, or missing limbs... Sometimes it's from something TOTALLY unforeseen and unforeseeable, but a LOT of the time it's from rushing, or taking just a little TOO MUCH of a chance, and it bites...

Later! OL JR

[boomtube]

Wow, the world is pretty messed up if racism applies to rocketry as well...

That’s right; we don’t want any of those dark colored rockets at our launches!!

But seriously folks.

I haven’t yet broken into the high powered levels, a G motor is the largest I have fired, but I have seen a few biggies go horribly wrong and it is easy to see how they could have gone even worse if we accepted an anything goes policy with regards to safety.

As for tolerance amongst modelers; one of the two groups I have repeatedly launched with is primarily geared towards high powered rockets, yet they have had no problems with me bringing my LPRs to their launches. If for no other reason than the fact that I can usually launch half a dozen “small fry” in the time it takes them to prep one of their J-class rockets. So they have something to watch during these lulls.

They try not to laugh when one of my designs land-sharks into the runway, while still under power, and I try not to scream in fear and crawl under my car when one of their big high powered rockets fails to deploy and comes hurtling down out of the sky like a 2,000-lb JDAM.

About the only aspect of model rocketry I probably won’t try is Micro-Maxx. Where I live and launch the prevailing winds are such that any rocket that small and low powered would either be pinned against the launch rail during boost or get blown sideways if it happened to actually leave the rail. “Oklahoma!!! Where the winds come sweeping down the plains”. Okay, enough with the Rogers and Hammerstein.

[dr wogz]

I'm trying to figure out "no where near Commiefornia"...

[Peartree]

I'm trying to figure out "no where near Commiefornia"...

It's not worth the effort...

[mkadams001]

My worst day of flying was when our club was having a contest launch along with our normal sport launch. This is our normal procedure and typically never a problem. However, on that day certain contest participants made the launch day miserable by spending so much time setting up their rockets and fiddle farting around that it delayed the launching rockets altogether. Now, that really wasn't the problem as much as the arrogance that was exhibited by these flyers. They show up a couple of times a year and act as if they own the place. I left without being able to fly that day. It left a sour taste in my mouth towards competition flyers. I don't belittle the contest flyers but, I won't show up to fly with them again.

[rocketsmith]

I have seen far more low power rockets endanger people at our Tripoli Minnesota launches than anything in the high power realm. I think there is a higher standard of care taken at our field when it comes to high power. I actually joined Tripoli over NAR specifically to reduce my interaction with the low power fiascos that I saw at the local NAR chapters. That's why I prefer research launches; few if any kids to step on my $300 dual deploy rocket or launch their big bertha on an A8-3 into my wife's lap (yes both happened).