Cost per Newton Second

ClayD said:

yes, you do blame the industry, thats why the winston cup no longer exists...
cigarretes can no longer have radio commercials...it's why the retailer has jailtime as a possiblity for selling to minors..

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True, you don't see cigarette advertisements anymore. Well, I don't see Aerotech out pushing the sales of these particular motors either. It's not like they're using subtle hints in their advertisements to get non-certed people to fly the few HPR G motors.

And you also mentioned my point exactly. The retailers. It's their job to sell to people with the proper certifications.

ClayD said:

...i know kids have been known to buy beer with a fake id...

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Again, the retailer not doing their job.

ClayD said:

If you want your hobby hinged on a bad economy and a "happy to sell anything he can vendor" to be responsible... you can...but,i dont want that...they shouldnt be made....

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Please tell me where I said that? Really, I'd like to know. I got out of rocketry for a long time because I couldn't comply with the rules. I didn't try to skirt around them, I just stopped flying. So I am all for following the rules.

ClayD said:

side arguement, theres no such thing in the us... of 10 small buisness owners ive worked for... 5 were highschool dropouts...(millionaire ones..)
our education ranks what?? to the rest of the world....

this guy (the hobbyshop owner) is in the world to make a buck,, and he will, regardless of your, educated and ethical requirement for what should be sold to whom.. there are no laws to the likewise...

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I'm not talking about requiring store owners to go out and get a business degree. I'm talking about simply reading a freakin' list! It's not that hard. I'm sure the vendors here are happy to read that you think they are just a bunch of drop-out simpletons.

Rocketman248 said:

I'm not talking about requiring store owners to go out and get a business degree. I'm talking about simply reading a freakin' list! It's not that hard. I'm sure the vendors here are happy to read that you think they are just a bunch of drop-out simpletons.

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your talking about the store clerk knowing and understanding aerotechs product like MarkII described.

I am saying the buisness world, is not motivated to research, carry a list, and know. when i was a kid, i knew more about the motors i was buying than the guy selling them.
Buisness world, either cares about the clerk taking too long of a break, washing windows... or if it's the owner, inventory, tax season... quartarly payments...

Our vendors in the hobby, that you can tag. "rocketry vendor" i completely agree with you...

for the vendors, like the one down the road from me, that is a rc helecoptor guy running a store, and sells hp motors... do you think he actually cares about some stupid nar list....(from his opinion). NO, nar lists dont keep the lights on, paying bills does. would he sell a K1100, no probably not, a g104, g75.. you bet...wouldnt blink...

that may be vastly far from reality, but that is the way i see it.....and have seen it... (i bought my first hp motor with no affiliation or certificaiton whatsoever)

So the problem is that there are SEVERAL criteria and that crossing any of 3 boundaries will move your from model to HP rocketry. So what we need is an industry color coding system for labels and rockets. Green for low power, Yellow for Mid Power and Orange for High power Experimental motors and packaging will be Red. Now anyone can look at the motor and see who can fire it/purchase it.

The certification process needs to be changed to use the HP criteria and not the arbitrary letter classification.

Problem solved.

Now which ones need to ship HAZMAT? :surprised:

cdondanville said:

So the problem is that there are SEVERAL criteria and that crossing any of 3 boundaries will move your from model to HP rocketry. So what we need is an industry color coding system for labels and rockets. Green for low power, Yellow for Mid Power and Orange for High power Experimental motors and packaging will be Red. Now anyone can look at the motor and see who can fire it/purchase it.

The certification process needs to be changed to use the HP criteria and not the arbitrary letter classification.

Problem solved.

Now which ones need to ship HAZMAT? :surprised:

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I don't know - thousands of people have managed just fine with the present system since the advent of high power some 30+ years ago. You don't need to be a you-know-what to figure it out.

cdondanville said:

So the problem is that there are SEVERAL criteria and that crossing any of 3 boundaries will move your from model to HP rocketry. So what we need is an industry color coding system for labels and rockets. Green for low power, Yellow for Mid Power and Orange for High power Experimental motors and packaging will be Red. Now anyone can look at the motor and see who can fire it/purchase it.

The certification process needs to be changed to use the HP criteria and not the arbitrary letter classification.

Problem solved.

Now which ones need to ship HAZMAT? :surprised:

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Labels on retail motor packages either say model rocket motor (there no legal low power-midpower classification) or high power rocket motor, so it's pretty easy to know what you're buying. EX motors are not sold. There are also legal notifications stating that certain motors may not be purchased by folks younger than certain ages (states) or that G motors and reloads may not be purchased by anyone under 18.

The current system of letter classification of impulse classification was developed over 50 years ago, and it internationally accepted, so it's not changing. It's quite clear and it's not arbitrary. https://www.nar.org/NARmrsc.html#sitedimensions

Bob

bobkrech said:

Labels on retail motor packages either say model rocket motor (there no legal low power-midpower classification) or high power rocket motor, so it's pretty easy to know what you're buying. EX motors are not sold. There are also legal notifications stating that certain motors may not be purchased by folks younger than certain ages (states) or that G motors and reloads may not be purchased by anyone under 18.

The current system of letter classification of impulse classification was developed over 50 years ago, and it internationally accepted, so it's not changing. It's quite clear and it's not arbitrary. https://www.nar.org/NARmrsc.html#sitedimensions

Bob

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But there isn't consistent packaging, that was my point with the color schemem. I believe all 29mm RMS F and G reloads say "High Power" on them, when by the NFPA code they are not. And while the letter code is VERY straight forward, it is only one of 3 criteria to determine the status of "High Power". It may be easy for someone of experience to easily discern the status of a particular motor, by the truth is that for the layman or a junior rocketeer there is no clear definition, but lots of "or"s and "if"s that need to be learned.

cdondanville said:

But there isn't consistent packaging, that was my point with the color schemem. I believe all 29mm RMS F and G reloads say "High Power" on them, when by the NFPA code they are not. And while the letter code is VERY straight forward, it is only one of 3 criteria to determine the status of "High Power". It may be easy for someone of experience to easily discern the status of a particular motor, by the truth is that for the layman or a junior rocketeer there is no clear definition, but lots of "or"s and "if"s that need to be learned.

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I'm pretty sure that the new labeling standards in NFPA 1125 will address this issue when they go into effect. Motors that are high power, regardless of their letter code, will have the prefix "HP-" as part of the designation. For instance, the label on CTI's F240, which now reads "68F240-15A" would read "HP-68F240-15A." This ought to make things less ambiguous.

I forget this fact, but ClayD and others are right - employees in general-purpose hobby shops often don't know all of the relevant details about the rocket motors that they sell. When I think about it, yeah, that's been my observation, too. On-site vendors at launches most certainly do, though, from what I hear. I buy my reloads online (it's my only source for them) and the vendors that I have bought from were also knowledgeable. I haven't been to a hobby shop that sold AP motors, so I don't actually know if those that do are adequately informed about them. (I have only bought BP motors at hobby shops.) So I suppose there could be potential risk there for an inappropriate sale, at least right now. I doubt that it would be rampant, though, because vendors have to keep logs of such sales, don't they?

cdondanville said:

But there isn't consistent packaging, that was my point with the color schemem. I believe all 29mm RMS F and G reloads say "High Power" on them, when by the NFPA code they are not. And while the letter code is VERY straight forward, it is only one of 3 criteria to determine the status of "High Power". It may be easy for someone of experience to easily discern the status of a particular motor, by the truth is that for the layman or a junior rocketeer there is no clear definition, but lots of "or"s and "if"s that need to be learned.

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If there's any question, you can go to https://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/CombinedMotorsByImpulse.pdf and find out the current certification status of any commercial hobby rocket motor, what group certified it, and what the classification of the motor is. NAR S&T, TRA TMT, and CAR MTC administrators have a private mailing list where all motor issues are discussed, and the Combined List is updated at least monthly.

Bob

bobkrech said:

the Combined List is updated at least monthly.

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Not exactly. It's updated when something changes. I just got a bunch of additions from TRA and CAR to go along with the two NAR additions. It will get updated in the next few days.

OK, this is really great info. But I have a question. Have you taken into account shipping, handling and HAZMAT?

For me, and I am only speaking for me, I go with ready availability. We have an Aero-Tech dealer in our group that doesn't charge shipping and handling. He would like to be a Cessironi dealer but they require, from what he has told us, a very large purchase to be a dealer.

Although I don't buy all my Aero-Tech stuff from him, I do look at the shipping, handling, and HAZMAT into my purchases off the internet.

With the cost of fuel so high, some online dealers have jacked the price so high, that their deals are now longer deals.

I know I am not in your power level, but I always look for the cheapest way to fly my Mid-Power stuff.

Andrew

accooper said:

OK, this is really great info. But I have a question. Have you taken into account shipping, handling and HAZMAT?

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Of course, any motor you can buy at a launch is going to be cheaper than one you have to order by mail. It makes perfect sense to "fly what you can buy." But shipping and HAZMAT do not scale with impulse delivered. The shipping and HAZMAT on an HP G reload is going to be about the same as on a J. And the HAZMAT fee, in particular, is per box. It would be very expensive indeed to order one CTI 24mm F reload by mail with shipping and HAZMAT. The only economical way to mail order is to spread the HAZMAT over a number of motors.

I did include shipping in a cost comparison on our club vendor page. There I considered the cost of ordering 10 motors at a time from various vendors.

For my graph of cost per Ns vs Ns, however, my purpose was to compare the motors themselves, not the vendors. To include shipping and HAZMAT I would have to decide shipping from who, from where, to where, and averaged over how many motors. The simplest and fairest comparison is between retail prices as delivered to a launch.

That said, the AT hobbylines are packaged specifically to avoid HAZMAT. If you are ordering MP reloads by mail, they are in a class by themselves.

Its been my experience if you order enough motors, the manufacturers and dealers will give you a price break that will generally be more than the hazmat.

An overpack weighing 30lbs costs the same Hazmat fee by Fedex as a 2lb box.
(although you pay more for cubic and weight, naturally.)

I think parcelll packages are limited to 50lbs per box. **not sure what the limit of an overpack is propellant wise** (a series of boxes within a box)**

If you only fly low and mid power thats a TON of motors... :shock:

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't think Fed Ex ships HAZMAT stuff do they?

Everything I get is by US Surface Mail.

Andrew

accooper said:

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't think Fed Ex ships HAZMAT stuff do they?

Everything I get is by US Surface Mail.

Andrew

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FedEX Ground does dangerous goods service. FedEX Express does not.

Most Aerotech 29mm is hazmat free USPS to your post office box. Under 30grams per grain??? it goes by dot 4.1 not 1.4 i think... (i could be wrong)maybe 1.4s not 1.4c (seriously been a long time since ive gotten a box of motors at my po box.)
I dont think CTI can be shipped in the same manner.
you can buy all the way up to I200 in 29mm hazmat free.
there are a few exceptions that hazmat may apply to those motors...At that point i dont think you can ship USPS. Aerotech retail list used to say which ones, H97j i think??

Thats one of the reasons i fly aerotech, and not cti, i can order them directly from aerotech, and get them in my po box, office, or home.... right now i have 2 hobby line reloads, once the sky opens up i will surely burn them and need more, since my onsite vendor is not onsite due to wheat harvest till july, i may have to order some through the mail...no hazmat.... yay!!!

but, if your looking at hazmat motors... GO GROUP ORDER...
Theres an idea, we should break down TRF into 8 regions, and support regional motor purchases@@ :bangbang:

accooper said:

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't think Fed Ex ships HAZMAT stuff do they?

Everything I get is by US Surface Mail.

Andrew

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The only rocket motors that can be mailed are those with not more than 30 grams of propellant or in an individually packaged reload grain, and that is by USPS authorized shippers only.

FEDEX and UPS, and most common carriers accept hazmat shipments and rocket motors are hazmat, but they are only accepted from certified hazmat shippers.

FEDEX aircraft are considered cargo aircraft by the FAA but UPS aircraft are classified as passenger aircraft by the FAA for technical reasons. For this reason, FEDEX can carry some rocket motors by air and UPS can't, however all large rocket motors are shipped ground, and the very large ones require an exclusive use "explosives" trucks.

Very expensive..... Used them .....

Bob

The government sure makes it hard to have fun. Usually when I order reloads (18mm and 24mm) I try and order enough to get me through six months of flying. Usually 10 or 12 reload kits.

Andrew