Cost per Newton Second

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Feckless Counsel

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TRF,

Please see the attached log-log graph comparing the cost of AeroTech to Cesaroni by newton-second. Some observations for your comment:

1. Cost curve is linear. No cost of complexity?
2. AeroTech "W" propellant is 40% cheaper than CTI "Classic" propellant.
3. That cost difference really accumulates at high impulse (note log scale).

Feckless Counsel
 
TRF,

Please see the attached log-log graph comparing the cost of AeroTech to Cesaroni by newton-second. Some observations for your comment:

1. Cost curve is linear. No cost of complexity?
2. AeroTech "W" propellant is 40% cheaper than CTI "Classic" propellant.
3. That cost difference really accumulates at high impulse (note log scale).

Feckless Counsel

That is really interesting. I've always known that to be true but to see it in graph form drives it home. I think I first noticed this trend when trying to select my L2 motor and doing this sort of comparison amongst the smaller J motors.

What would be really interesting is Kosdon's $$$/impulse on there.

Edit: And/or cost per newton as it relates to similar propellants...Metalstorm vs. skid, blue thunder vs. CTI blue, etc.

-Dave
 
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TRF,

Please see the attached log-log graph comparing the cost of AeroTech to Cesaroni by newton-second. Some observations for your comment:

1. Cost curve is linear. No cost of complexity?
2. AeroTech "W" propellant is 40% cheaper than CTI "Classic" propellant.
3. That cost difference really accumulates at high impulse (note log scale).

Feckless Counsel

Below is the CTI manufacturing facilities in Gormley, Ontario. Most of their products are made for Aerospace and Defense.

The CTI Pro-X line of rocket motors are professional quality hobby rocket motors sold at a hobby rocket motor price. CTI uses mil-spec automated vacuum mixers and vacuum injection casting which leads to consistent propellant lots and propellant grain without voids, so it's not surprising that it costs more, because the overhead of their facilities is higher than the other motor manufacturers.

I don't mind paying a small premium for a higher qualtity, more reliable product. Based on you plots, 40% seems a bit high so could you attach you spreadsheet so we can see how you fit the data?

Bob

CTI Gormley.jpg
 
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In smaller sizes, such as 29 and 38 MM, CTI is a little bit more expensive per load. In the larger sizes (75 and 98), the cost is nearly identical.

Also many people consider the cost of a rocket motor on the launch pad. CTI hardware is cheaper. When you have CTI with expensive loads and cheap hardware (AT the other way around) the total cost curves intersect at some point. One may make sense over the other, depending on how often you use the motor case.
 
:cool: Numbers can be made to say whatever you want them to say. I went over to Wildmans site for these 75mm loads and price, all are list price...
AERO
75 2 gr. K1000 2511 nt.sec 164.99 06.5 per nt. sec.
75 3 gr. L850 3685 nt. sec. 189.00 05.1 per nt. sec

CTI
75 2 gr. L585 2653 nt. sec. 145.95 05.5 per nt. sec
75 3 gr. L800 3757 nt. sec 189.00 05.0 per nt. sec

In both the 2 and 3 grain the CTI is cheaper. If you add in hardware costs, the cost per launch is in CTI's favor even more. Your 40% figure is crap. :y:
 
The CTI Pro-X line of rocket motors are professional quality hobby rocket motors sold at a hobby rocket motor price. CTI uses mil-spec automated vacuum mixers and vacuum injection casting which leads to consistent propellant lots and propellant grain without voids, so it's not surprising that it costs more, because the overhead of their facilities is higher than the other motor manufacturers.
Bob

Oops. Nobody is perfect. :wink:

(no hate cti)
 
the difference is much bigger with the smaller motors though since the 24-54mm motors use a disposable liner setup and everything is setup before.

75mm and 98mm are almost the same.

like (wildman prices)

Aerotech 38mm 3 grains=$33 bucks
CTI 38mm 3 grains=$40-$43


Aerotech 98mm 6g=$800
CTI 98mm 6g=$800 or $830 depending on propellent type.

so all things are relative ;)
 
Below is the CTI manufacturing facilities in Gormley, Ontario. Most of their products are made for Aerospace and Defense.

The CTI Pro-X line of rocket motors are professional quality hobby rocket motors sold at a hobby rocket motor price. CTI uses mil-spec automated vacuum mixers and vacuum injection casting which leads to consistent propellant lots and propellant grain without voids, so it's not surprising that it costs more, because the overhead of their facilities is higher than the other motor manufacturers.

I don't mind paying a small premium for a higher qualtity, more reliable product. Based on you plots, 40% seems a bit high so could you attach you spreadsheet so we can see how you fit the data?

Bob

If they are using 'mil-spec' equipment then the military products should be paying for the high end equipment that is required to produce them. If they want to produce consumer products using that same equipment, there should be no reason to charge a premium because of the equipment used to make it.

Are you sure the mil-spec is for the manufacturing equipment and not just for the finished product. I realize you need better equipment to meet the mil-spec for the product, but I didn't think the mil-spec applied to the manufacturing equipment. I though it only applied to the items sold to the military.

I assume you're not implying other manufactures produce substandard products because of their production equipment isn't the same 'mil-spec' that CTI has.
 
The analysis performed in the first post of this thread claiming a 40% higher price of CTI reloads compared with AT reloads appears to be flawed.

I went to Wildman and downloaded the list prices for all HP AT and CTI reloads, and compared paired the costs of the AT and CTI reloads in terms of case diameter and number of grains in the reload kit. When this data is fit, the slope is the average price per grain in the reload kit, and the intercept is the cost the rest of the components in the reload kit which I call the system cost.

As most folks already know, there is a slight system premium for the CTI Pro-29 and Pro-38 reloads compared to the AT RMS-29 and RMS-38 reload, but the CTI Pro-54, Pro-75 and Pro-98 reloads cost just about the same as similar AT RMS-54, RMS-75 and RMS-98 reloads.

See attached chart and spreadsheet for details.


Bob

View attachment list price motor comparison.xls

motor comparison table.jpg
 
That chart looks pretty blatantly incorrect. At the larger sizes, CTI and AT are quite comparable in price - at Wildman right now, the CTI N2500 Classic (13766 Ns, 98-6g casing) is the exact same price ($799) as the AT N2000 White Lightning (13347 Ns, 98-6g casing). At smaller sizes, you're correct, but your chart is quite simply wrong on the large motors. I'm not sure where you got your data, but it is in fairly desperate need of correction. This isn't an exception either - pretty much all the 75 and 98 costs are pretty comparable. Even at 54, the difference is relatively minimal. It's at 38 and 29 that the difference is fairly substantial.
 
It's been my observation that in the smallest sizes (24mm and 29mm), the price differential is strongly in AeroTech's favor. The gap narrows somewhat in 38mm reloads and becomes essentially even in 54mm. The price curves cross in 75mm, and after that, CTI reloads become the more affordable option.

This whole matter, though, is a bit like comparing lemons to limes. Setting aside the technology and assembly philosophy differences and just looking at the actual reloads, propellants, etc., the two companies' offerings are grossly similar, yet they each have their own unique characteristics. The comparisons can only go so far then. I appreciate what each company has to offer, and I feel that we consumers can only benefit from this multitude of choices. There is no down side here. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to limit oneself to one company's products.

One thing about hardware prices, though. Yes, CTI's hardware is generally lower-priced than AT's. But remember that you only buy the hardware once, while you buy the reloads over and over again. Low-priced hardware isn't necessarily the bargain that it can appear to be at first if you subsequently have to pay higher prices for reload after reload. You have to consider the aggregate cost over time, and not strictly focus on one-time savings. At some points in the power range, the affordability favors one company, and at some points, it favors the other one. Personally, I feel that the characteristics of the specific reloads are at least as important as the price, so my motor choices are never solely driven by price.
 
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Personally, I feel that the characteristics of the specific reloads are at least as important as the price, so my motor choices are never solely driven by price.

I agree 100%. We are blessed to have several motor mfgs in competition with one another to keep the prices competitive. I did get curious about the OP graph, though, so I generated my own using data from the Wildman site. I included all of the Cesaroni 29 and 38 mm reloads, all of the Aerotech 29mm reloads, and the biggest two Aerotech 38mm reloads. (The CTI reloads were easier to include, since the total impulse is part of the motor name--had to look up the AT impulses) (Didn't see BobKretch's spreadsheet until I had built mine :eek:)

CostPerNs.jpg

View attachment CostPerNs.xls
 
Comparing prices using a common yardstick (cost per N-s) is as valid of an analysis as you can get, and it is useful. But in the real world, you can't purchase motors by the Newton-second. Looking at actual reload prices, there are some even more striking differences at the small end in the two product lines. Prices for single reloads for CTI's Pro24 motors are comparable to the prices for 3-packs of RMS 24 reloads. AeroTech and CTI design their 24mm products for very different segments of the power range, though. AT covers most of the traditional MPR power range with its reloads, while CTI offers high thrust or long-burning reloads concentrated at the upper end of the F and G classes. Most of CTI's Pro24 reloads require HPR certification to purchase even though they are in the F-G range. Price comparisons of actual reloads from the two companies at the small end are a bit complicated due to this fact.

There appears to have been some realignment of price structures for both companies at the other end of the spectrum. AT reloads for RMS 98 motors seem to have come down a bit in price since the last time I checked them earlier in the year, and CTI's prices for Pro98 reloads seem to have gone up a bit. The two product lines are very nearly identical in price now, whereas in an earlier comparison CTI's prices were strikingly lower. While there is still a spread at the smaller end, there is general convergence at the large end. The price curve "crossover" that I had mentioned above seems to have vanished.
 
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At the low end, the ease of CTI assembly and the reliability of CTI delays both make the price difference worthwhile, especially for those who are new to HPR.
 
That graph is pretty amazing. I had no idea that the profit margin was so high on small motors. They should replace some of that with better igniters.
 
At the low end, the ease of CTI assembly and the reliability of CTI delays both make the price difference worthwhile, especially for those who are new to HPR.
Ease of assembly is indeed one of CTI's strong points, especially in the case of the Pro38s, but I have never found RMS motors to be at all complicated or difficult to assemble. The issue has never caused me any concern, so I don't ever consider it myself when I look for reloads. Specific performance characteristics are really what I base my decisions on, and neither brand owns the field at the expense of the other in that regard. Instead, the combined offerings from the two companies makes for a bigger buffet line. Quite a bit to choose from there.
 
That graph is pretty amazing. I had no idea that the profit margin was so high on small motors. They should replace some of that with better igniters.

It's not necessarily profit margin. In smaller motors, the manufacturing effort per newton second is also much larger. In other words, it's much, much less effort for Aerotech (just as an example) to make and package one N2000 than it is for them to make 408 F24s, even though the total propellant quantity is the same. Therefore, 408 F24s should indeed cost more than an N2000, or in other words, the cost per Ns of the F24 should be larger than that of the N2000.

Also, I agree about choosing based on the characteristics you want. I tend to chose based on performance and visual effects rather than manufacturer - I end up flying a pretty decent mix of Aerotech and CTI because of it. It all depends on what I'm looking for out of a motor.
 
One factor not considered in this price comparison is the availability of pre- order sale discounts. Aerotech discounts of 25% for preorders are always available, where as the CTI is almost never discounted. (The only sale I have seen was Wildman's one for the last LDRS). Since I already have all the cases I fly aerotech most of the time. I fly CTI when I need to cluster or stage. I fly skidmarks for the noise and effects (especially at night). I suspect aerotech has the highest volume of sales, but with a lower profit margin for them.
 
CJL, I know, but I was sort of generalizing. But they really could just add another dollar (or two, whatever) to make better ignitors.
 
Updated graph for all 29mm, 38mm, and 54mm AT and CTI reloads carried by wildman at list price. The AT outlier at 2353 Ns is the K250W, which is an LMS motor and probably does not belong in this dataset.

CostPerNs.jpg

View attachment CostPerNs.xls
 
That graph is pretty amazing. I had no idea that the profit margin was so high on small motors. They should replace some of that with better igniters.
Hobby rocket motor propellants are mixed in batches, typically between 10 to 50Kg depending on the mixer being used. As most of APCP propellant is AP and binder, plus metals and colors, there isn't a really big difference (estimated less than 20%) in the cost of the propellant ingredients and mixing time for different propellant types on a weight basis which is how you pay for the ingredients.

The biggest cost variable is in the labor to manufacture and package of the propellant grains. It doesn't take much more time to cast a 1.4 kg propellant grain as it does to pack a 62 g propellant grain. A 40 kg propellant batch will make (28) 1.4 kg propellant grains, while the same batch will make (600) 62 gram propellant grains. Each grain has to be date stamped, bagged or assembled into a reload, and then kitted. It takes 10 to 20 more time to kit the 62 g propellant grains than it does to kit up 1.4 kg grains. That why smaller reload are substantially more expensive on a $/Ns basis.

Automated vacuum mixing and casting equipment is far more expensive than manual mixing and casting, and what you save in lobor costs is offset by increased capital and maintainence costs so the total costs are approximately the same for both manufacturing methods. The additional preassembly cost associated with the Pro-24 to Pro-54 reload kits is the principal reason why smaller CTI reload kits are more expensive than AT.

That's also why most folks prefer to do the cost analysis the way I did it. Folks don't buy reloads based on Ns alone. Most purchase reload by performance or effects, and to fit the casings they own, and for rockets they have. You have a certain casing diameter that holds a niumber of grains. Propellant grains of the same size can vary in Ns by 25% depending on the effect you want. Smokey motor have poor efficiency, and fast burning propellant have higher efficiencies. Costing by Isp alone does not provide much of a comparison unless you want to look at each type of propellant.

Bob
 
Folks don't buy reloads based on Ns alone.

I agree with everything said by bobkrech. Especially, someone with multiple casings to choose from will choose a reload for the effect and desired altitude for the rocket rather than on cost per Ns. Someone buying their first casing of a given size, however, might consider cost per Ns as one factor in their purchase. They might wonder whether the product line from one manufacturer is generally more or less expensive than from another.

I have expanded my spreadsheet to include all reloads from 24mm to 54mm sold by Wildman and Performance Hobbies. This includes 8 product lines. For the most part, there is a great deal of overlap between product lines. The variation within product lines is at least as large as that between different product lines. I can see very little economic reason to prefer one manufacturer over another, with the following exceptions:

a) In MPR, Aerotech hobbyline has the edge. The closest competition is from Cesaroni, whose 24mm and 29mm motors are generally small HPR motors, not MPR motors.

b) At the low end of HPR, Kosdon TRM, Kosdon by Aerotech, and Ellis Mountain have the lowest cost reloads. These do not include ejection charges, however, and Ellis Mountain does not use motor ejection, so the comparison with other motors is not exactly apples-to-apples. Also, I'm not sure what the future holds for Kosdon TRM or Ellis Mountain, but Performance Hobbies currently does show these motors in stock.

In 38mm and 54mm motors, reloads from these manufacturers seem competitively priced.

(Spreadsheet exceeds TRF size limits. PM me for a copy)

CostPerNs.jpg
 
I agree with everything said by bobkrech. Especially, someone with multiple casings to choose from will choose a reload for the effect and desired altitude for the rocket rather than on cost per Ns. Someone buying their first casing of a given size, however, might consider cost per Ns as one factor in their purchase. They might wonder whether the product line from one manufacturer is generally more or less expensive than from another.

I have expanded my spreadsheet to include all reloads from 24mm to 54mm sold by Wildman and Performance Hobbies. This includes 8 product lines. For the most part, there is a great deal of overlap between product lines. The variation within product lines is at least as large as that between different product lines. I can see very little economic reason to prefer one manufacturer over another, with the following exceptions:

a) In MPR, Aerotech hobbyline has the edge. The closest competition is from Cesaroni, whose 24mm and 29mm motors are generally small HPR motors, not MPR motors.

b) At the low end of HPR, Kosdon TRM, Kosdon by Aerotech, and Ellis Mountain have the lowest cost reloads. These do not include ejection charges, however, and Ellis Mountain does not use motor ejection, so the comparison with other motors is not exactly apples-to-apples. Also, I'm not sure what the future holds for Kosdon TRM or Ellis Mountain, but Performance Hobbies currently does show these motors in stock.

In 38mm and 54mm motors, reloads from these manufacturers seem competitively priced.

(Spreadsheet exceeds TRF size limits. PM me for a copy)
Kevin

Thanks for adding the other reloadable motor manufacturers to the spreadsheet. The manufacturers you added, Kosdon, Ellis, Kosdon by AT, Loki, Gorilla, (and the old AMW motors) all use the Kosdon C-ring style cases that use an aluminum forward closure and a graphite nozzle, both of which are not consumed in a flight, so with these reload kits you are essentially paying for a liner tube and the propellant grains. You're not paying multiple consumable parts, nozzles, or preasssembly, so these reload kits should be, and your spreadsheet shows, that they are the least expensive, and the cost per Ns doesn't change much with casing size as it really is the propellant that determines the cost of the C-ring casing reload kits.

I think it's fair to say that the propellant prices for all manufactures is competitive, but the cost of a reload kit isn't just propellant. In mid-power and L1 motors, there are 3 distinct casing designs with widely differing internal configurations. AT clearly has the most selections in the mod roc reloadable market with two distinct casing lines, one for newbies entering the mid-power world and a second for high power folks who occasionally fly mid-power. They developed this market and clearly dominate it.

Kosdon style casings are a simple and relatively low cost high power motor casing that employs minimal consumables. While a few reloads are in the mid-power impulse range, many are classified as high power reloads by high average thrust (>80 N).

Similarly the CTI Pro24 through Pro54 casing design employ a preassembled reload cartridge that is threaded into a light weight casing which is the only reusable part. CTI initially produced mainly L1 and L2 high power reloads in the Pro38/54 style casing, with a couple G impulse model rocket motor reloads, but recently downsized the design into 29 mm and 24 mm casing but many of these reload are also classified as high power reloads by thrust.

You pay for the convenience of a preassembled reload in smaller motors compared with AT, so CTI motors below J cost a bit more than the equivalent AT motors. Likewise there is slight discount with Kosdon style reloads compared with AT below J-impulse because of fewer consumables, but the companies manufacturing these reloads are smaller and do not have the distribution or production capacity of AT or CTI so they are harder to find.

When you get to J-impulse and above, you are paying primarily for propellant so costs tend to be competitive, and this is what Kevin's master plot shows. Ultimately, what you fly may depend more on what is available locally so you don't have to pay a hazmat fee every time you buy a motor. :)

Bob
 
So in looking at all the entries I notice a couple of things.

1) CTI reloads are more expensive than AT at lower n/s but this is probably because you do more assembly with the AT which lets them keep their cost down.

2) Labor is a really large factor in motor manufacturing.

2) Competition appears to be good for this industry and market with nice tight pricing, but not too tight and lots of differentiating factors in motors.

2) If you really want to get more for your money, you need to fly BIGGER ROCKETS! :p
 
...Cesaroni, whose 24mm and 29mm motors are generally small HPR motors, not MPR motors...
Thank you! That's an excellent way to characterize their products. I have been struggling for some time to categorize the Pro24s and Pro29s in a way that captures their uniqueness and does them justice, and your succinct description really nails it. Although they are in diameters that are usually associated with mid-power, Pro24 and Pro29 motors really aren't MP but rather HP motors, and they really can't be directly compared to AeroTech's hobbyline 24mm and 29mm RMS motors. Back when CTI was making noises about producing 24mm reloads, I speculated (either here or on RP) that they might do best by avoiding direct competition with AT at that size, and instead to explore the portions of the F and G power ranges that AT wasn't addressing. I mentioned, for instance, that a truly long-burn G motor would be really awesome. Since Ellis Mountain shut down, no one was making those types of motors anymore. Apparently I guessed right, because that was one of the motors that they eventually produced.

cdondanville mentions one reason that probably explains why Pro24 reloads are more expensive than RMS 24 reloads: the fact that they are in a more pre-assembled form. No doubt that is part of it. I would also say that Pro24 reloads are for the most part much more powerful, and also that AT and CTI seem to be aiming their respective lines at different markets. AeroTech's hobbyline motors are meant for folks like me, MPR fliers who don't have HPR certification. (A thousand thank yous for that, too!!) CTI's Pro24 motors are designed for the HPR flier who wants to launch small diameter Mach busters or is interested in making altitude record attempts (among other things). This is totally cool and it has been a neglected part of the spectrum until now. These factors could easily account for the price difference. The 24mm offerings from AeroTech and Cesaroni Tech are actually quite distinct from each other. They are geared toward different segments of the hobby and are not directly comparable.
 
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