TLP 2.6 Phoenix Missile

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paul.nortness

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Hey guys,

I am returning to rocketry after over 20 years away. My first kit is a 2.6 AIM-54 from The Launch Pad.

I am curious how I can expect this rocket to fly on an Estes D12?
 
There are two reviews on RocketReviews.com... those may help

There are no flight logs on RR but the Estes Phoenix Rocksim file I have is a 2.6 inch diameter rocket. Weight 4.1oz. Length 29.6

Sims to about 350 feet with a D12-3 being perfect. Launch rod exit velocity a robust 45 ft/sec w/ 36in rod.
 
Thanks guys.....I appreciate the info.

It's hard for me to get ahold of Aerotech E motors without local vendors. Ordering online is not always an option for me, whereas I can always go down to my LHS and get Estes D12s.....so as much as I would love to use the big E motors.....sadly this guy is going to be on a steady diet of Ds
 
At least you got a decent launch area...I can only access a large launch area once a month. Makes it tough as an airline guy.

FC
 
I do not have this kit, but I have built other 2.6" TLP kits and I did have the Estes Phoenix. The best advice I can give is to watch your weight! The Estes kit was marginally stable on a D12. My TLP Standard AGM kit is also marginal on a D12. If you build it light you can always add weight to the nose if stability is an issue.
 
Not sure of the dimensions of the TLP kit. I gave the dimensions of the Estes Kit above cept for the fins semi-span.

If the width of the rear fins is about 2.6 then its about the same scale. Rocksim places the CP 23 inches from the nose. Or call it 80% the distance from the nose.

If you download open rocket you should be able to sim this yourself. Or post dimensions and I can try and plug them in.

Happy to help out.
 
The TLP kit is closer to scale than the Estes kit.You can always tell when a Phoenix kit looks right or not (many kits have the upper ratio from forward fin to nosecone a little long) and the nosecone shape not quite right (wrong ogive at is were)
Look at the MadCow offering ,it`s pretty close to scale for what it is.

The Estes kit was always a little under powered I found (the estes E did little to help with the W/thrust ratio....needs an AT E I found ,better off with a D12 ,but still ????)

My last scratch build Estes Phoenix (thanks to people here nad JimZ) flew pretty well with rail buttons and AT E 15`s and an E30....whoosh !!

Had to add nose weight of course due to my construction methods (beefier motor tube ,basswood fins and ...wait fir it....EPOXY :y:....although not needed at all ,wood glue is fine for the build.

At any rate ,a great rocket and fun to fly !!

Paul T
 
I just got my TLP Phoenix in the mail today......

Looking at the fin patterns, looks to me like the fins are too small? And I don't think they included enough material for the fins and the root brackets.

As much as people gripe about the blunt nose with a paper wrap....I actually think the TLP kit is the closest match to the nose profile on the real AIM-54. I'm undecided if I am going to use the paper wrap, or if I will use the cone I ordered from Performance. If I use the Performance cone, I might save the blunt TLP cone for a scratch built Maverick

Gonna be an interesting build for sure.
 
I just got my TLP Phoenix in the mail today......

Looking at the fin patterns, looks to me like the fins are too small? And I don't think they included enough material for the fins and the root brackets.

As much as people gripe about the blunt nose with a paper wrap....I actually think the TLP kit is the closest match to the nose profile on the real AIM-54. I'm undecided if I am going to use the paper wrap, or if I will use the cone I ordered from Performance. If I use the Performance cone, I might save the blunt TLP cone for a scratch built Maverick

Gonna be an interesting build for sure.

Oh indeed, it is a very close match ,no question.That`s another thing (depending on how anal you are)but the radome really makes or brakes the look of the missile.

The TLP kits add these "hats" to create the scale look of the intended missile ,as it would be cost prohibitive to create a radome/nosecone to match every kit.Of course ,some folks don`t care ,and that`s fine...afterall, if it looks good ,and you`re happy ...great.A lot of times ,people don`t know what they are looking at (always helpful) and see the thing for what it is....a rocket.

All in all ,the AIM54 ,AIM-9,AGM-12 ,AIM-4 Falcon are some of my favorites ,not to mention all those groovy Russian missiles.


Did I mention Delta vehicles?

Cheers

Paul T
 
I just ordered the TLP AIM-9. I've been really impressed with some of the pics I've seen around these forums of that missile. I would love to see a good Python series missile.

As far as the "hats" go...I really like the idea of "painting" the paper cone with CA glue. Having spent many an hour removing layers of CA from my fingers, I can imagine that would make the paper cone pretty strong. I ordered a plastic cone from Performance Hobbies....I will probably use the paper wrap for display and launch with the plastic cone just to be on the safe side.

I would like to add an AGM-65 eventually, but I am not too keen on the way the nose looks on the TLP kit. It's too round. I might try some scratch building on a spare nose cone if I end up picking one up.
 
That`s one I have not seen (built any way) but it is a nice kit.

Paul ,you know something about scratch building (ARC/model AC) the TLP kits are a great stepping stone towards those means.

Cheers

Paul T
 
Oh, it can definitely be done with sheet stryene.....but the trick is to do it so you get some of the detail of the TV guidance lens but keep the weight down.

Of course, adding that detail would negate the need for messy nose weight clay!
 
This was my first attempt do make the seeker head using epoxy and a mold.The lens came out very clear (with sanding & polishing) but the foil background gives it a bubbly look ,although there are no air bubbles in the mold.It only seems to look like this in the flash of the camera.I painted the background with Tamiya clear red.The kit is TLP Matra Magic.

Overall I am pleased ,but my next project(the one I`m doing now) ,I will turn the seeker lens from cast acrylic rod.

Cheers

Paul t

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I just got my TLP Phoenix in the mail today......

Looking at the fin patterns, looks to me like the fins are too small? And I don't think they included enough material for the fins and the root brackets.

As much as people gripe about the blunt nose with a paper wrap....I actually think the TLP kit is the closest match to the nose profile on the real AIM-54. I'm undecided if I am going to use the paper wrap, or if I will use the cone I ordered from Performance. If I use the Performance cone, I might save the blunt TLP cone for a scratch built Maverick

Gonna be an interesting build for sure.

Well as has been mentioned then, be very mindful of the CG/CP. I am more than happy to plug numbers into Rocksim and post the results.


Looking at Jim Ball's digram here it seems the Estes Rocksim file I have has the fin's semi span wider than the real deal. The rear fins on the Estes AIM-54 are almost square. Not true of the real AIM-54. Other than that and the big disparity in nose cone shape (the Estes is longer)...

As an experiment I changed the Estes AIM-54 to fins to a semi-span of 2 instead of 2.6 and I shorten the nose code to 5.5 inches. This RockSim file shows the motor is mounted forward of the rear of the body tube, like many TLP kits are. If that is true, then my mods give a .9 calibers of stability with a D12-3.
 
All in all ,the AIM54 ,AIM-9,AGM-12 ,AIM-4 Falcon are some of my favorites ,not to mention all those groovy Russian missiles.

Did I mention Delta vehicles?

Cheers

Paul T

Tho I suppose heresy... I really like the 'scale like' TLP kits. Perseus II and Osiris being my favs. Then there is the Indigo and as you said, the groovy Russian missiles...

I have two of DFR's latest Deltas run... all in the queue. Missed out on the 24mm versions.
 
Well as has been mentioned then, be very mindful of the CG/CP. I am more than happy to plug numbers into Rocksim and post the results.

Thanks Jeff.....I appreciate that. Once I get some time at the work bench and get some measurements, I will take you up on that offer!

BTW....I assume CG is "Center of Gravity"? May I ask what "CP" stands for?
 
Thanks Rex.....another stupid question....

Mind explaining "Center of Pressure" to a noob?
 
CP is the rough aerodynamic center of the model. As an example, a simple dowel has a CP roughly right in the middle. But you start adding fins to one side, the CP starts heading in that direction as well.

Think of having a cardboard silhouette of your model...the surface area would be equal on either side of the CP. On a silhouette of a stick...the CP would be right in the middle. On a typical rocket, the silhouette would have a CP near the back.

Rockets and aircraft typically rotate around their CG whenever an aerodynamic force acts on them.

The farther back the CP is from the CG, the more stable the rocket in general.

FC
 
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Tho I suppose heresy... I really like the 'scale like' TLP kits. Perseus II and Osiris being my favs. Then there is the Indigo and as you said, the groovy Russian missiles...

I have two of DFR's latest Deltas run... all in the queue. Missed out on the 24mm versions.

Thanks Jeff .I like all the TLP kits (well at least the ones I have...whicch is most :wink: )
Scale is my thing for the most part ,and Carl`s (DFR) Deltas are great ,as I now have his two 24mm versions and all the new kits he just came out with.

The 3 TLP kits you mentioned are on my radar ,but I did just get the all important FLAIL from Sirius Rocketry ( Davis is a top notch vendor ,and has a great memory LOL)

The MadCow 4" version of the Phoenix is a great kit with the most accurate "blown plastic" nosecone I`ve seen.I would really like to upscale it and an AGM-65 Maverick (6" diam.) ,that would be cool and not too difficult ,and makes it a little over 4 feet tall.

Cheers

Paul T
 
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Where is the Jim Ball stuff located now? I had a link for the new host but have lost it
 
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