How much epoxy needed?

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jayarrG7

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My first project with epoxy, a Madcow Momba, will be started this week.
My question is, are the common 1oz. dual tube sets enough epoxy to attach motor mounts, fins, and parachute strap. If not, what size would be needed.
Another question, I see that some of the epoxy is available in "gel" form.
Is this better or worse for our applications?
 
The 1oz tube sets are an expensive way to buy epoxy -- you're paying for the convenience. If the Momba is the only rocket using epoxy you think you're ever going to build, then it's okay. But if not, you'll want to buy larger quantities, to save money.

Most hobby shops relabel Bob Smith Epoxy with their own sticker. This is typically much more economical.

I'd stay away from the "gel" epoxies; no idea what's in it and what it may do to the strength. Any epoxy that's mixed 1:1 already has fillers; making it a gel is adding more fillers.

-Kevin
 
I use 5 and 15 minute epoxy exclusively in my builds, from LPR to HPR. I'll use the 5 or 15 depending on the set up time I want. I don't use epoxy for strength, I believe yellow wood glue is every bit as strong when gluing wood to wood or paper. But I like the faster and more consistent set up time of epoxy. Wood glue takes too long to set for me. I get the bigger bottles of epoxy from Hobbylinc or my local hobby store. I do carry a syringe of 5 minute in my range box for field repairs.
 
hobby 5min is good stuff, although I always buy 30min. this lets me use it with microballoons. Kind of a pain for tacking fins, but i use a jig for that.
9.99 for 9oz is fairly cheap. for my HPR builds i use west 105/206 or Proline, it is much cheaper in the long run. 50.00 for quart VS. 75 for hobby type epoxy

you could always use JB weld as well..
 
I had to use JB weld for my min. diameter cert rocket, and i found that it's really amazing. It's extremely strong, has a very long curing time (and becomes a puddy after about half an hour) and you can form it into any needed shape. Lots of different types too :)
 
I had to use JB weld for my min. diameter cert rocket...

Why?

I built my Cirrus Dart (38mm MD) entirely with hobby epoxy, and it did just fine at mach 1.7 on an I600R. I think a lot of people overestimate how often JB weld (and similar high temp products) are actually needed.
 
Why?

I built my Cirrus Dart (38mm MD) entirely with hobby epoxy, and it did just fine at mach 1.7 on an I600R. I think a lot of people overestimate how often JB weld (and similar high temp products) are actually needed.

i would've used my z-poxy, but it's too thin to make fillets with :O
 
You should get some fillers :)

Everyone should have some milled glass, chopped CF, microballoons, and colloidal silica.
 
In order of decreasing strength:

1) Chopped CF
2) Milled Glass/Colloidal Silica
3) Microballoons

In order of decreasing ease of use

1) Everything except chopped fibers
2) Chopped CF (or chopped glass or kevlar)

In order of decreasing ease of sanding:

1) Microballoons
2) Milled glass/colloidal silica
3) Chopped CF

Basically, use chopped CF for maximum strength at the expense of the ability to sand it and the ease of use (it becomes a hairy, goopy mess when you add chopped CF to epoxy, but it's incredibly strong). Use milled glass and colloidal silica for a good balance of strength and ease of use (they're a good choice for things like external fillets). Microballoons severely decrease the strength of the epoxy, but they also make it a good sandable filler. So, use them if you need something as more of a filler, rather than a strong adhesive.

In addition, with some of the fillers (colloidal silica is my favorite), you can thicken the epoxy to the point at which it will hold its shape regardless of orientation. At this point, you can shape beautiful fillets and not worry about running or sagging. Not only that, but you can do all of your fillets with 60 min or slower epoxy, and you can still finish all of them at once in 15 minutes (and then wander off to do something else while they cure).
 
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In order of decreasing strength:

1) Chopped CF
2) Milled Glass/Colloidal Silica
3) Microballoons

In order of decreasing ease of use

1) Everything except chopped fibers
2) Chopped CF (or chopped glass or kevlar)

In order of decreasing ease of sanding:

1) Microballoons
2) Milled glass/colloidal silica
3) Chopped CF

Basically, use chopped CF for maximum strength at the expense of the ability to sand it and the ease of use (it becomes a hairy, goopy mess when you add chopped CF to epoxy, but it's incredibly strong). Use milled glass and colloidal silica for a good balance of strength and ease of use (they're a good choice for things like external fillets). Microballoons severely decrease the strength of the epoxy, but they also make it a good sandable filler. So, use them if you need something as more of a filler, rather than a strong adhesive.

In addition, with some of the fillers (colloidal silica is my favorite), you can thicken the epoxy to the point at which it will hold its shape regardless of orientation. At this point, you can shape beautiful fillets and not worry about running or sagging. Not only that, but you can do all of your fillets with 60 min or slower epoxy, and you can still finish all of them at once in 15 minutes (and then wander off to do something else while they cure).

Good info! Thanks!
 
But, don't forget fillers can drasticaly decrease cure time. 30 min epoxy or west system epoxy change to 5min and 30min epoxy for me.
 
A few thoughts.

The strongest epoxy joints are used when combined with amendment, such as chopped carbon or Kevlar. Use a good quality epoxy, such as Aeropoxy or WEST System. You don't need to goop epoxy on when using amendment. A little goes a long way.

I make a distinction between a structural fillet, the purpose of which is to anchor fins to the airframe and isn't pretty, versus an aero/aesthetic fillet which lies on top of the structural fillet and is pretty. Some people prefer the "one fillet does all" method, whereas I usually go the 2-step approach the more I am concerned about performance.

Also, excess heat is the enemy of epoxy. A little heat is ok in that it speeds up the cure process. However, most epoxies have a "heat limit" called the glass transition stage, or "Tg" for short. Depending on the epoxy, it is usually around 150 F to 200 F. This high heat degrades the mechanical properties of epoxy. In most LPR/MPR applications, that is not a concern since things rarely get that hot for any significant time. However, in places where the epoxy is going to see a good, thermal soak, you need to find an epoxy that has a Tg above the expected heat soak (such as JB Weld, which IIRC is around 600 F). This only a consideration in structural joins around long-burn motors and some flights where high Mach is expected.

Finally, where nitrile gloves when handling epoxy to prevent getting epoxy exposure to skin (not good). When using certain amendments, it is also helpful to have a respirator if you do not adequate ventilation.

Greg
 
But, don't forget fillers can drasticaly decrease cure time. 30 min epoxy or west system epoxy change to 5min and 30min epoxy for me.

Huh?!

I have never experienced a changed cure time due to anything I have added to epoxy, nor could I find any references to this occuring. The only appreciable sources of cure time variation were due to resin/hardner ratio and the epoxy temperature.
 
Huh?!

I have never experienced a changed cure time due to anything I have added to epoxy, nor could I find any references to this occuring. The only appreciable sources of cure time variation were due to resin/hardner ratio and the epoxy temperature.

Ryan, Graphite and CF retain heat, epoxy curing generates heat. if the heat does not disapate, the epoxy cures faster and faster.

If you were to take a graduated mixing cup, put 25ml resin 5ml hardener in it and get it a good mix, and place an equal wieght of chopped cf in there mix it up real good... you will see that cup melt and hit several hundred degrees.

I have had this burn my fingers. melt cups... and puts of nasty toxic fumes...

I have also read on the micro balloons that i have, where it says, "additives may decrease pot life".. based on that same thing.
 
Ryan, Graphite and CF retain heat, epoxy curing generates heat. if the heat does not disapate, the epoxy cures faster and faster.

If you were to take a graduated mixing cup, put 25ml resin 5ml hardener in it and get it a good mix, and place an equal wieght of chopped cf in there mix it up real good... you will see that cup melt and hit several hundred degrees.

I have had this burn my fingers. melt cups... and puts of nasty toxic fumes...

I have also read on the micro balloons that i have, where it says, "additives may decrease pot life".. based on that same thing.

I realize the the reaction between resin and hardner is exothermic however it is exothermic whether or not there is an additive. It is common knowledge that small sized cups provide enough epoxy to insulate the reaction and cause rapid heating due to the postive feedback loop of the epoxy reacting, heating itself, curing faster, and therefore heating itself more ad infinitum (cure or the container melts ... or worse). My intuition tells me a material that spreads out the reacting mass might actually slow down this process, as something other than the reacting epoxy is absorbing/dissipating heat (especially as graphite is a great conductor of heat, I don't know where you heard it retained heat???)

Anecdotally I just mixed a cup of resin hardner and chopped carbon fiber and did not notice a substantial increase in the cure time over a cup of resin and hardner by itself. Could you link me to the source of info you have on this?
 
I realize the the reaction between resin and hardner is exothermic however it is exothermic whether or not there is an additive. It is common knowledge that small sized cups provide enough epoxy to insulate the reaction and cause rapid heating due to the postive feedback loop of the epoxy reacting, heating itself, curing faster, and therefore heating itself more ad infinitum (cure or the container melts ... or worse). My intuition tells me a material that spreads out the reacting mass might actually slow down this process, as something other than the reacting epoxy is absorbing/dissipating heat (especially as graphite is a great conductor of heat, I don't know where you heard it retained heat???)

Anecdotally I just mixed a cup of resin hardner and chopped carbon fiber and did not notice a substantial increase in the cure time over a cup of resin and hardner by itself. Could you link me to the source of info you have on this?


The added surface area of the CF does not provide and benefit to release heat, since the epoxy encapsulates the CF.. it retains the heat. putting more heat back into the epoxy, if anything conducting the heat from hotter areas of epoxy to colder areas giving a increased cure rate to the "thinner" parts of a fillet per se..

I will look when I get home tonight through my stuff and see if I can find something for you if its really that big of a deal.

I have notice when working with epoxy and fillers, my work time is reduced, that is just general seeing and doing.
 
The added surface area of the CF does not provide and benefit to release heat, since the epoxy encapsulates the CF.. it retains the heat. putting more heat back into the epoxy, if anything conducting the heat from hotter areas of epoxy to colder areas giving a increased cure rate to the "thinner" parts of a fillet per se..

I will look when I get home tonight through my stuff and see if I can find something for you if its really that big of a deal.

I have notice when working with epoxy and fillers, my work time is reduced, that is just general seeing and doing.

I'm with Ryan on this one. I've never noticed a substantial change in cure time due to fillers. In addition, your explanation makes no sense. A given quantity of epoxy will generate heat at the same rate, whether or not it contains fillers. Fillers will increase the volume of the adhesive for a given quantity of epoxy, which will increase the surface area exposed (for the same shape. Alternatively, they will decrease the amount of epoxy in a fillet or similar thing of a fixed volume. This should actually decrease the heat generation compared to pure epoxy.

All of my work with fillers and epoxy also supports this. I've been using fillers for quite some time, and they have never caused a substantial change in the cure time.
 
I'm with Ryan on this one. I've never noticed a substantial change in cure time due to fillers. In addition, your explanation makes no sense. A given quantity of epoxy will generate heat at the same rate, whether or not it contains fillers. Fillers will increase the volume of the adhesive for a given quantity of epoxy, which will increase the surface area exposed (for the same shape. Alternatively, they will decrease the amount of epoxy in a fillet or similar thing of a fixed volume. This should actually decrease the heat generation compared to pure epoxy.

All of my work with fillers and epoxy also supports this. I've been using fillers for quite some time, and they have never caused a substantial change in the cure time.

wow, i need to change my user name to fence post, your waxing eliquant here.

What I said makes perfect sense, and the marginal volume increase, vs increase in thermal conductivity, feel free to contact the help line for west, and discuss this with them, i have and is conclusive with what i talked with ther rep about.
 
All due respect, guys, you've completely derailed the OP's question.

Back on topic ...

Unless you're only going to build one rocket, starting out with hobby epoxy like Bob Smith is a good idea. 15 minute is a good place to start, because 5 minute really means 5 minute and you'll be frustrated as heck with the epoxy curing too fast. If you have used epoxy before and can deal with a quick cure, 5 minute is really great. You just have to mix what you can work is a very short amount of time.

What jsdemar said about wood glue and/or Titebond is also true - if you're building a paper/cardboard and wood rocket, it is the bee's knees.

--Lance.
 
To get back on topic, I agree that Bob Smith 15 minute is about the best all around choice to start with for hobby epoxy. 5 minute works well if you're impatient, but it really does mean 5 minutes, and you'll often need to rush to finish a step before the epoxy cures. Titebond is a good choice as well if your rocket is wood and paper.
 
So - here's what I have learned from my original question - (remember, this is the beginners section).
1. Epoxy may not be needed or even best for a paper and wood project.
2. Centering rings are best served by a good non shrinking glue such as Titebond II.
3. Wood fins actually benefit from a shrinking type of glue such as carpenters glue.
4. Fillets are well served by Titebond Trim and Molding Glue, since they hold their shape well.

If any of these conclusions seem wrong, please correct the advice I have found on this board by searching older results.
 
A few thoughts.



Finally, where nitrile gloves when handling epoxy to prevent getting epoxy exposure to skin (not good). When using certain amendments, it is also helpful to have a respirator if you do not adequate ventilation.

Greg

Why is this? I've always read to use gloves but never new what the health concern from the epoxy was.:confused:
 
Why is this? I've always read to use gloves but never new what the health concern from the epoxy was.:confused:

"when using certain ammendments" was the key to Greg's post.

Epoxy, can irritate people, but it's generally something allergic with the person.

Colloidal silica, is a small glass sphere, that will :"get stuck": in your respiratory system, and never ever come back out.
the condition is called Silicosis, and is HORRIBLE..
 
If you expose your bare skin to epoxy, you can become sensitized to epoxy, and eventually have what is basically a severe allergic reaction to the epoxy from even minimal contact.
 
If i use epoxy in my model rockets then i use the "Extreme Power" brand 5 minute epoxy found in Hobby Lobby. I also use their then and Medium CA glues as well.

The 'Extreme Power" Epoxy from Hobby lobby comes in two 4 ounce bottles and can be had at around 10-12 bux...
 
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