Suggestions on AIM 54 Phoenix dual-deploy design?

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MountainRocketeer

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Attached is a Rocksim file for a scratch-built AIM 54 Phoenix Missile I am working on. Due to the very short airframe forward of the fins and engine mount, I plan to mount the Raven in the nose cone so it does not take up 2" inches of prime airframe, and so that I can use the 2.5" of nose cone space as additional payload bay if needed.

Any and all suggestions are welcome.

View attachment Phoenix Nosecone AvBay.rkt
 
For the motors that you plan using, consider heavier wall LOC or Aerotech tubing. Either will be a bit sturdier than Estes BT-80. The nose cone (PNC-80K) will fit into either tube, although the base will need to be built up to smooth the nose cone/body tube joint.

The nose cone location for the altimeter will play havoc with any barometric device until ejection. That is why altimeters and avionic bays are placed in a straight section of the rocket.
 
For the motors that you plan using, consider heavier wall LOC or Aerotech tubing. Either will be a bit sturdier than Estes BT-80. The nose cone (PNC-80K) will fit into either tube, although the base will need to be built up to smooth the nose cone/body tube joint.

The nose cone location for the altimeter will play havoc with any barometric device until ejection. That is why altimeters and avionic bays are placed in a straight section of the rocket.

Thank you for your suggestions! I really appreciate it and will make sure I give strong consideration to every one. These are two issues that I have given a good bit of thought to already, so I'll explain my thinking and would be glad to hear responses to my reasoning.

On the altimeter location: This an issue I have gone back and forth on. I actually made an alternative Rocksime file for the AIM 54 with a mid-ship avbay. Advantages of midship design: 1- No/less interference with barometer, although still not seven calibers back from shoulder of nosecone (probably not an issue unless exceeding mach); 2- Can attach ejection charge leads directly to altimeter instead of running extension wires aft into fin canister (through small, sealable hole in bulkhead) and to rear of payload bay; 3- Easier to mount 29mm tube/coupler (for prefab Raven e-bay) in airframe/BT80 coupler than deep in nosecone. Disadvantages: 1- Probably would not have enough room for a parachute-sized bay both above and below avbay; 2- heavier build, because weight of avbay would not be in nose and would need to add some there to get good static margin.

I also looked at some other mid-power and level one rockets flown with nose-mounted altimeterspurchasing the Raven altimeter and discussed the issue with an altimeter manufacturer. I addressed the primary disadvantage by: 1- Purchasing the Raven altimeter, so I can use accelerometer for apogee detection, then baro for main deployment; and 2- Until I have flown enough to be fully confident in acel-based apogee detection, I will use motor ejection with delay 2-3 seconds past predicted apogee so I should minimize chance of early deployment or simultaneous motor and altimeter deployment.

So, after considering all of the above, I plan to epoxy 2.5" 29mm tube and one or two steel 4-40 all-thread into front of nosecone creating a stud assembly inside 29mm tubing; I will assemble Raven bay using 2" 29mm coupler and one or two supplied aluminum all-threads, then slide it onto studs inside 29mm airframe and snug down using steel nuts; primary launch cord attachment will be to nose cone itself (so decleration forces upon extension tend to force assembly and nosecone together and not apart) with a tail attaching to one of the steel studs; that way, even if the epoxy did let go of the nose cone, the avbay will still be attached to the recovery harness.

Again, I welcome your additional thoughts. Do you think I can depend on the accelerometer to detect apogee?

Concerning the airframe material: Part of the reason I made this design is to use up materials I have left over from my last big scratch build. That means about 26 inches of BT80 and an Apogee 2.6" polystyrene nosecone. I'm cheap. :D

The last build I mentioned has flown on E's and F's and a five-motor cluster that reached 118 Newtons of peak thrust. That rocket also has a much longer airframe with a heavier nosecone, so the tubing sees more stress at the same levels of thrust. I have seen no signs of stress to that airframe. I have also talked to a number of rocketeers much more experienced than me who say BT80 should be fine, and that in the early days of high-power they were using thin-wall airframe (with and without glass) for lower high-power applications. Also, this design has through-the-wall fins and fin supports and a motor mount running more than half its length, and they will substantially reinforce things.

I am more concerned about zippering than I am about acceleration-based frame failure. I plan to protect againt that by 1- using long shock cords, including a length of elastic-type shock cord; 2- making sure the section of cord that runs past the edge of the airframe is a wide type, and not thin kevlar; 3- carefully selecting deployment delays/times; and 4- not flying in breezy weather so I do not get a lot of arch-over and horizontal speed.

Further thoughts? Particular concerns? Anything I can do to further reduce the risk of airframe failure or zippering?
 
The only suggestion I can offer is that you consider using a tether-style dual deploy. You could set it up so that you have your main in a deployment bag, with the drogue attached to both the tether and the d-bag. If you attach the main/d-bag/drogue/tether very close to the nosecone attachment, you shouldn't have any issues with stress on the e-match leads.

The advantages to this are:

1) everything comes out of the airframe at apogee, reduces chances for zipper, also reduces the chance of the main chute being fouled by the fincan falling through the opening main parachute.
2) Tether device, d-bag with main chute, drogue, and most of your main shock cord are all bundled up at the top of the airframe near the NC, which is good for weight distribution.
3) The e-bay is in the NC, again good for weight distribution.
4) All the laundry is between the ejection charge and the e-bay, which means that all that expensive electronic gear is protected from the corrosive gases of an ejection charge.
5) single break retains the scale lines of the original missile.

Hope this helps.

G.D.
 
The only suggestion I can offer is that you consider using a tether-style dual deploy. You could set it up so that you have your main in a deployment bag, with the drogue attached to both the tether and the d-bag. If you attach the main/d-bag/drogue/tether very close to the nosecone attachment, you shouldn't have any issues with stress on the e-match leads.

The advantages to this are:

1) everything comes out of the airframe at apogee, reduces chances for zipper, also reduces the chance of the main chute being fouled by the fincan falling through the opening main parachute.
2) Tether device, d-bag with main chute, drogue, and most of your main shock cord are all bundled up at the top of the airframe near the NC, which is good for weight distribution.
3) The e-bay is in the NC, again good for weight distribution.
4) All the laundry is between the ejection charge and the e-bay, which means that all that expensive electronic gear is protected from the corrosive gases of an ejection charge.
5) single break retains the scale lines of the original missile.

Hope this helps.

G.D.

I have looked at the Tender Descender. Do you know where I can find deployment bags for smaller rockets and chutes? If not, I might be able to talk my wife into pulling out her sewing machine.
 
Aerocon and Commonwealth both sell military surplus parachutes with d-bags.

G.D.
 
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