Dos Catos

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GregGleason

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I had two catos with C6-7s yesterday.

Both events were spectacular: flaming chunks-o-debris coming up through the body tube in a variety of colors. Looked as good a pyrotechnic display as I have ever seen and reminded me of roman candles. :eyepop:

One victim was an Estes RTF variant. The other was a skill level 3 (Echostar, but sustainer only). Neither motor was recovered. :(

I launched 5 other Estes motors (B6's/C6's) with no deleterious or special effects. Go figure.

Greg
 
Submit a MESS anyway, even if you can't find the motor casings.

G.D.
 
I had two catos with C6-7s yesterday.

Both events were spectacular: flaming chunks-o-debris coming up through the body tube in a variety of colors. Looked as good a pyrotechnic display as I have ever seen and reminded me of roman candles. :eyepop:

One victim was an Estes RTF variant. The other was a skill level 3 (Echostar, but sustainer only). Neither motor was recovered. :(

I launched 5 other Estes motors (B6's/C6's) with no deleterious or special effects. Go figure.

Greg

the only estes i have ever seen fail(not my fault for failing) was in 92' a d12 ruptured, a big spewing fireball out of the side of the rocket... SUPER COOL..

I had a hand full of E9's that spit the nozzle out... sat on the pad and burned the rocket...
 
the only estes i have ever seen fail(not my fault for failing) was in 92' a d12 ruptured, a big spewing fireball out of the side of the rocket... SUPER COOL..

I had a D12 CATO on me today, old motor, case split down the side, destroyed the rocket.
 
At one Alamo "Red Neck" Rocketeers launch we had 4 catos. We came to the consensus that it was the way the engine was stored.

I myself have "knock on my wooden head" never had a CATO.

Glad no one was hurt.

Andrew
 
I had two catos with C6-7s yesterday.

Both events were spectacular: flaming chunks-o-debris coming up through the body tube in a variety of colors. Looked as good a pyrotechnic display as I have ever seen and reminded me of roman candles. :eyepop:

One victim was an Estes RTF variant. The other was a skill level 3 (Echostar, but sustainer only). Neither motor was recovered. :(

I launched 5 other Estes motors (B6's/C6's) with no deleterious or special effects. Go figure.

Greg

That kind of cato is so cool....as long as it isn't my rocket. :D

Seriously, sorry for the early demise of your rockets. At least they went out in a blaze of glory....literally. :cool:
 
Greg

How old were the motors approximately? Were they both from the same pack? How were they stored?

If they were from the same pack, do you have the third one, and can you read the code on the motor?

One of the enquiring minds of S&T would like to know.

Bob
 
Greg

How old were the motors approximately? Were they both from the same pack? How were they stored?

If they were from the same pack, do you have the third one, and can you read the code on the motor?

One of the enquiring minds of S&T would like to know.

Bob

Bob,

The motors were likely all purchased within the last year, and most certainly within the last two years.

They were stored on a shelf, in a covered, plastic container in the garage. Temps for the past year in the garage have ranged from the low 30s F (about a month ago) to the high 80s. AFAIK, no motors were dropped.

My practice at the time was to take the motors out of the package and rubber band them together. Which means that there has been a co-mingling of the motors, so I cannot determine if these came from the same pack.

Temp at launch time was in the high 70s F or low 80s F.

As mentioned before, that day 5 other Estes motors worked as advertised.

Before last Saturday, never had a motor cato.

Greg
 
They were stored on a shelf, in a covered, plastic container in the garage. Temps for the past year in the garage have ranged from the low 30s F (about a month ago) to the high 80s. AFAIK, no motors were dropped.

My understanding is that repeated thermal cycling is the most common reason why BP motors CATO. You might want to consider storing them inside your house, in an ammo can if you are concerned about accidental ignition.
 
Bob,

The motors were likely all purchased within the last year, and most certainly within the last two years.

They were stored on a shelf, in a covered, plastic container in the garage. Temps for the past year in the garage have ranged from the low 30s F (about a month ago) to the high 80s. AFAIK, no motors were dropped.

My practice at the time was to take the motors out of the package and rubber band them together. Which means that there has been a co-mingling of the motors, so I cannot determine if these came from the same pack.

Temp at launch time was in the high 70s F or low 80s F.

As mentioned before, that day 5 other Estes motors worked as advertised.

Before last Saturday, never had a motor cato.

Greg

My understanding is that repeated thermal cycling is the most common reason why BP motors CATO. You might want to consider storing them inside your house, in an ammo can if you are concerned about accidental ignition.
I sounds like you simply got a few bad motors where the propellant debonded from the casing. Estes has the best quality control in the industry, testing 3% of their production motors, so very few bad motors get out, but as they make several million motors a year, that still several hundred per year that get away.

I store mine in a smimilar manner so I don't think thermal cycling had anything to do with it.

Bob
 
I contacted Estes late yesterday about the motor issues.

A little while ago I received an email from Estes that they are sending a replacement Chrome Dome and a Long Tom (Echostar has been discontinued, BTW I built the Centuri Long Tom as a kid, lo these many years ago).

I cannot tell you how happy this has made me as a consumer! :) :) :)

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you do customer service.

Way to go Estes!

logo.png


Greg
 
A box from Estes arrived today with the two promised rockets, and a package of C6-7 motors. :D

Well done, Estes!

Greg
 
Estes really does have great customer service. They truly recognize the cost of making the kits and motors vs loosing a customer.
I would, however, move your motors. Thermal cycling is such a problem that I keep my BP motors in my basement all year long. My garage in wonderful CT ranges from 0 to 120. Even that is too much for them.
JMHO, though.
 
In a temperature range of 30 to 80 degrees f the bp itself will not degrade, if it stays dry, for a long long time. I keep my powder for my muzzleloaders in an ammo box out in a garage to keep it dry and away from any ignition source. I am no rocket propellant pro but i would guess it is similar powder. The thermal issues may come into effect if the casing is expanding or contracting enough to debond from the casing as bob krech said before or maybe a little moisture helped debond it. my stepfather and i have been using the same container of granular bp for as long as ive been shooting muzzleloaders, about 15 or 16 years now, and that container has been in the same corner in an uninsulated unheated garage since then. Since pyrodex pellets became widely available, we only use the granular stuff for recreational shooting so i have a feeling that container will be out there for another 5 or 6 years.

Years ago when i took my hunters education class we went over about 6 cases of people finding a flintlocks that have been under floorboards in barns or cabins loaded with the same powder for 100 or so years and when the trigger was pulled they still fired. these rifles had been covered in snow mud baked in the heat or sitting in a puddle for a century and the bp was still a viable propellant, to a careless finder there are cases where mishandling led to death or injury. Bp is very good about handling elements and even being wet if allowed to fully dry out, and maintain its combustibility.

I believe debonding is just about the only thing that thermal cycling may lead to and that seems to be a reach for an answer. But i dont know what estes uses to bond the powder that may be more temperamental to temperature changes expand and contract and there by debonding from the motor casing. this has me wanting to see a full on mythbusters expose on the topic. lol

Glad estes made it right tho and rooting for better luck with the other motors
 
from estes motor msds

"Precautions to Be Taken in Handling and Storing
Avoid impact and ignition sources. To assure proper performance, store in a cool, dry area
at 32° - 140° F (0°-60° C). Store away from living quarters."

That is a pretty large gap in safe storage temps has me thinking that rather than a storage issue it is the rare instance of getting a bad run.
 
My understanding of the issue is that extreme temps will cause the debonding or cracking in the powder because the powder and the tube expand and contract at different rates. If even a little of the powder debonds or a crack forms, when burning, when the flame front reaches that area, it will expand over the debonded/cracked area and can increase the burning surface by 2, 3, or more times. That of course increases pressure dramatically and causes the case to rupture with the increased pressure.

This is the same problem you get with voids in APCP.
 
I agree if anything is going to hurt a bp motor it will be what is used as a medium to bond and shape the powder and how the bonding agent interacts with the case. At least estes seems easy and quick to make a cato right. That is enough to make me keep buying from them.
 
I hope they make it good. I had a CATO on a D12-0 yesterday. It turned into a spectacular flight! I like watching spectacular flights, just not from my rockets. Unfortunately it was my rocket's turn yesterday.

I launched my Aston Avenger 2 stage with a 24mm booster. It was a D12-0 to a C6-7. When the button was pushed, the D12-0 blew the nozzles with enough force to pop the rocket off the rod and it dropped to the ground. As it lay there with a 18mm dia. foot long flame shooting out the back of the D12, I knew a landshark was inevitable when it staged! :y:

It staged and took off across the field going away from the LCO and flight line.:clap: After about 20 feet, it tilted up into the air and slowly climbed as it continued to tilt toward the LCO table. :eek: Fortunately the C6-7 burned out as it got about 5 - 8 ft in the air. The Avenger arched up to about 15 ft and flew over the LCO table and stuck in the ground about 30 ft behind it. 4 or 5 seconds later, the ejection charge went off and popped the lower section 5 - 6 ft in the air as the chute deployed.

Other then two fins broke off the sustainer, there was almost no damage to the rocket. The booster stayed on the rocket and the C motor fired through the tube of the D motor which was why it was moving so slow after it staged.

Fortunately everything turned out OK. It sure was spectacular! :D
 
Handeman,

You know the drill, MESS then Estes support. Estes will do well by you, they replaced my Tomahawk that you saw burn. I venture you'll be taken care of.

G.D.
 
Estes has always been good to me.When I was younger I had a cato and they replaced my rocket and sent new engines to me.I am 40 now and still buy and fly Estes.:)
 
Handeman,

You know the drill, MESS then Estes support. Estes will do well by you, they replaced my Tomahawk that you saw burn. I venture you'll be taken care of.

G.D.

Both done already. I don't need the rocket replaced, it's just a couple of fins that broke off the tube, but I would like to get a replacement motor. Besides, Estes stopped making the Astron Avenger after 1981. I doubt they have any kits that old laying around.
 
This is probably the coolest cato ever. I bought some old A10-0s, a body tube and a tip from a discount rocketry trailer. I naively built a 3 stage with A A10-0 in every stage. When we pressed the button the rocket shot off the pad and flew about 50feet straight up. That's when the first stage burned out and ignited the second stage. The second stage catoed directly upward lighting the third stage. The third stage catoed out the side of the engine casing. At first I didn't know what happened I heard two incredibly loud explosions, one right after the other. Then I saw all the pieces of debris falling all around us. We found the engine casing about 100 yard away.
 
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