low to mid power

Have been firing up low power rockets a/b/c motors for awhile considering moving up to aerotechs mid power rockets e/f/g wondering if it will give me a more realistic blast off and flights as the lower power rockets just don't seem to give that. Also wondering the cost factor of low power to mid power motors and what options I have thanks

First of all, you can fly MUCH bigger rockets.

With MPR, there are different propellant types, such as Smoky Engines:

Also, while they are more expensive, you can save money by buying a reload casing. They are an investment, but you save money in the long run.

Finally, you can gain valuable experience that could later help you with HPR projects like this, if your budget allows:

I am just making the same jump that you are about to. Good luck!

One option is to build either an Estes Executioner or one of the Semroc SLS kits - you can fly them up to Estes E motors, or you can use Apogee/Aerotech single use 24mm motors (or 24mm RMS motors) in them as well.

Something I found to be a real hoot is to build either a Big Daddy or an Executioner (you can also use that to kitbash a Colossus, Maxi Alpha, or with a different nose cone, A Broadsword/Super Bertha out of the Executioner) with a 3x24mm motor mount. Putting three E9s in one is like using a baby G - but they give incredible flights! Three D12s would be a small F, and three C11s is a small E. 3x24 clusters is a great way to transition into mid-power. And using Quest Q2G2 igniters for a cluster makes flying them simplicity itself - no clip whips or buss bars - just tie the leads together in parallel and use a flashbulb safe launcher (the Estes launcher will light them off when you check continuity).

There is a lot more choice when it comes to mid-power motors than with low-power motors. Not only do you have a variety of manufacturers (aerotech, cesaroni, roadrunner); each manufacturer makes a variety of propellants (white, blue, red, green, loud, smoky) and sizes (24mm, 29mm). Some burn quickly for an impressive launch, others burn slowly for a roar that recedes into the distance. You will pay $8-$15 for single use motors, or you can spend $50 on a casing and then $10-$25 for reloads. Aerotech makes some fine kits, but don't overlook offerings by Mad Cow, Pemberton, and recently Wildman (better known for HPR). Typical kits sell for $30-$120. Also don't overlook valuerockets.com, particularly for 3-packs of single use E's. I have compiled representative prices on our club website: Hovar.org.

Thanks for the replies
I hate being at the bottom of the learning curve
I had read about the reloads but not sure of how much it would save - are they 3 packs?
Kevin said:
"You will pay $8-$15 for single use motors, or you can spend $50 on a casing and then $10-$25 for reloads."
This looks like the reloads would cost me more, my local hobby shop cost $125 just for the reload casing so it would take a bit just to recoupe that investment
I'm trying not to send good money after bad and get into the right spot for equipment to enjoy the hobby - the current lower power rockets just don't do it and I wouldn't want to continue to waste $ on E power rockets threw estes (as I haven't flown any E power rockets) ect.. but if that gives me the realistic blast offs and flights for less then why not.
Guess I came here figuring most of you on here are been there done that people who might give me the best root to follow

If your shop is charging that for reloads and cases being way overpriced, then do some shopping on the net, you really shouldn't have to pay more than $40 for a 29 40/120 reload case with the closures. Check out some of the vendors that support this forum, I think you will find something that fits the budget. 18/20 and 24/40 reloads come 3 to a pack, the 24/60 motors are 2 to a pack and the 29 40/120 reloads are 1 to a pack. The only thing to be careful of is that some of the loads need to shipped with the extra Hazmat charge(which I think is bogus, but that is a different animal). You can group order if you have any friends or club members looking to do the same thing as you, it helps offset the shipping charges. It is a little more involved and a little bit more expensive than say the a,b, and c motors up front, but as with any hobby, the more involved you become, the more $ flows out of your pocket. I really like the reloads, it is really fun to assemble the motor and then watch it ignite and take off, then hold your breath(did I put it all together right moment? is waiting for that ejection charge to go off). Very exciting, at least for me and I am sure a few others around here. Have a good one and good luck with what you decide. I don't think there is a bad choice here either way, sticking with Estes or moving up to the reloads and S/U motors.
Matt

I too am just in the process of entering the MPR world. I purchased and built a Madcow Batray and a LOC Lil' Nuke, both rockets at around $40. They both use a 29mm motor mount, and have a wide range of recommended motors, including single use and reloads. I did a lot of window shopping online looking at reload hardware before buying those rockets and decided that the 29/40-120 hardware seems to me to be very versatile. It's recommended use is part of why I decided to get those two rockets first. In addition to being able to use a wide variety of reloads, it looks like many of the MPR kits out there have recommended reloads that use that hardware.

I have seen it priced from anywhere just under $40 to over $60. I've seen a few places showing it as a list price of over $80, but their selling price was less. I've never seen it at $125. There is both an aerotech and a rousetech version.

I purchased three single use motors for the first flights of my two MPR rockets, and plan to purchase the above reload hardware from the vendors that usually come to our club launches (I'll have to remember to tell them that so they can make sure to have one on hand). One thing you may consider, if you haven't already, is joining a club. This forum will give you plenty of advice and you'll probably get a lot of recommendations. But I fully plan on having someone from my club watching over my shoulder when I set up the single use motors I bought (different type of igniters) and help guide me through the reload set up as well. I mean, the instructions are usually pretty clear, but I'll have more of a comfort level with someone that's been there and done that making sure I'm not doing something stupid.

One point that has not been made is that with reloads you can adjust the delay. For example, with a Cesaroni (AKA CTI) G57-12 you can drill out the delay grain using a tool supplied with the casing to get a 9, 7, 5, or 3 sec delay. Aerotech makes a similar tool sold separately. No more frustration of finding that the motor you have has the wrong delay for the rocket you want to put it in. CTI reloads come with the longest appropriate delay and you are expected to adjust it for the delay you want. AT reloads can be bought with different delays, but if you buy the longest one, you can adjust it downward with the tool.

If you are new to this, also note reloads are made for specific casings. The Aerotech (or Rousetech) 29/40-120 casing is for "hobbyline" reloads. There are currently 6 MPR reloads (not counting different delays) for this casing. AT also makes 29 mm casings for their HPR reloads. Cesaroni makes 29 mm casings in lengths denoted by the number of grains it holds. A popular MPR option is a 3-grain casing sold with 2 spacers that allow you to fly 1, 2 or 3 grain reloads (about $50 for the set including the delay tool). There are currently 8 MPR and 15 HPR reloads for this casing.

Cesaroni MPR reloads are more expensive ($18-$25) than Aerotech hobbyline reloads ($8-$12), but have fewer parts with less chance of making a mistake in assembly. Debate on motors sometimes degenerates into flame wars, but I have both AT and CTI casings and fly them both. Twice the choice and twice the fun.

thanks again for the info
still a lot to learn and digest
the club idea is a good one I'm checking into. I tried it a few years back with the r/c plane heli root but came back to rockets
saw a few post by fellow Mainers even one by a member wanting to start a club in Mechanic falls which is near by so if any are out there in central maine please post contact info
the batray sounds like a great way to go next thanks for that tip

There's a big difference in how a mid-power launch feels in my opinion... It's much louder and more dramatic. Honestly, I think the change comes partly from bigger motors and partly from the composite propellant instead of the black powder motors Estes sells... An Estes E engine is not terribly exciting, but a 24mm composite motor is. In general though, I think it scales well -- bigger rocket, more exciting.

The first is my barracuda on a G38-7FJ motor, which is about the weakest G motor around. The rocket is over 4.5 feet tall and a couple inches in diameter.

The second is a scratch built rocket on an H112J motor, just into Level 1 HPR. It's slightly larger than the Barracuda.

Third is a Madcow Prion on a J motor, barely into Level 2 HPR. For reference, the Prion is 4 inches in diameter and approaching 6 feet tall.

These all happen to be Aerotech blackjack motors. Note the prodigious amount of black smoke they put out!

Hi and welcome.
All the information given is right on so I'll only add a little advise. One appraoch given is with a "transition" type rocket; That is to say a large modroc w/ a 24mm mount, then step up to a composite propellent E or F motor of the same size in the same rocket. This has merrit but my experience was to go straight to a dedicated midpower model. The power levels CAN be a bit much for modroc airframes. Additionally, modifying a modroc to be mid power capable seems counter productive when dedicated mid power kits are plentiful and reasonably priced. Aerotech and LOC are just a couple of manufacturers that have a great selection of kits designed specifically for midpower. Plus it will give you a taste of the subtle differences in construction as you move up. It's the route I took and am glad I did. Watching your newly created pride and joy do a MaxQ Dissassembly is something no one wants. As was mentioned, the price you got from your hobby vendor was WAAAAAY overpriced. More in line with an HP casing. Here are just a couple of many online vendors that are worth a look:
https://www.merlinmissiles.com/29_40_120_motor.html
https://www.performancehobbies.com/
https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/

FWIW

dogfight said:

Thanks for the replies
I hate being at the bottom of the learning curve
I had read about the reloads but not sure of how much it would save - are they 3 packs?
Kevin said:
"You will pay $8-$15 for single use motors, or you can spend $50 on a casing and then $10-$25 for reloads."
This looks like the reloads would cost me more, my local hobby shop cost $125 just for the reload casing so it would take a bit just to recoupe that investment
I'm trying not to send good money after bad and get into the right spot for equipment to enjoy the hobby - the current lower power rockets just don't do it and I wouldn't want to continue to waste $ on E power rockets threw estes (as I haven't flown any E power rockets) ect.. but if that gives me the realistic blast offs and flights for less then why not.
Guess I came here figuring most of you on here are been there done that people who might give me the best root to follow

Click to expand...

Goto www.balsamachining.com select the title 'Estes & Aerotech low power(G & under) Motors' on the home page, then scroll down the page that comes up to find:

T18M 18MM reloadable case $42.95 10 %off $38.65
T24M 24MM reloadable case $47.99 10 %off $43.19
T29M 29MM reloadable case $49.99 10 %off $44.99

Also look at the prices of reloads while your on the page.


www.redarrowhobbies.com
29/40-120 29mm Hardware $35.99


www.hobbylinc.com
look at reload prices

Be kind to your wallet, not the local hobby shop owner, and look around on-line!

dogfight said:

Have been firing up low power rockets a/b/c motors for awhile considering moving up to aerotechs mid power rockets e/f/g wondering if it will give me a more realistic blast off and flights as the lower power rockets just don't seem to give that. Also wondering the cost factor of low power to mid power motors and what options I have thanks

Click to expand...

Dogfight,

Have you tried clustering bp motors? That may give you the effect your looking for.

If you want to go ap, might I suggest Cesaroni. Building them is much easier and more reliable i.e. no builder errors. Cleanup is a breeze too!

Good luck with your transition from lpr to mid. From mid, it is a small jump to hpr, certification!

Tsolo Dann, L2
"My first rocket was a scratch built"
NAR 82124
TRA 10359

bradycros said:

Be kind to your wallet, not the local hobby shop owner, and look around on-line!

Click to expand...

Or show the hobby shop owner the online prices. He may not be able to match the lowest prices, but if he can price more competitively he will gain a customer for reloads and you will gain a convenient source for rocketry supplies.

Can someone explain this to me and what/how to; maybe a pic or vid
"Have you tried clustering bp motors"
I'm using the info given and researching options thanks to all that are replying

dogfight said:

Can someone explain this to me and what/how to; maybe a pic or vid
"Have you tried clustering bp motors"
I'm using the info given and researching options thanks to all that are replying

Click to expand...

Clustering is basically as the name implies, a cluster of motors. Two or three is typical though there have been rediculously massive clusters. This configuration requires a rocket/motor mount purpose built so clustering a rocket designed for a single motor can't be done without modification.
Though it's a little dated, this link will give you great information on clustering techniques and cluster ignition. Hope it helps.
https://www.spacemodeling.org/JimZ/manuals/tr-6.pdf

Here is a copy of the clustering Hints & Tips sheet we ship with our cluster models. Hope it helps!

View attachment hnt-sl3cl.pdf

AP composite motors whether single use or reloadable are fun. That is reason enough to take the logical next step in rocketry and move up to mid power.

Clustering is also a choice and can be very fun and really cool. In my opinion an AP motor is cooler than a cluster of BP motors. Especially when using a smoky propellant. They even sound cooler. Again, just my opinion

Buying from your local hobby store probably will cost you a little more but if you are lucky enough to have a non-chain, mom and pop, brick and mortar hobby store in your town then I would urge you to at least consider buying from them. These small businesses are not just a source of supplies but are often the center of the hobby scene within their communities and can be a great source of knowlege.

20 years ago most cities had at least one hobby shop. With the rise of the internet and chain stores almost all of them have gone out of business forever and with them the hobby scene has dried up in many of these towns. In my case I have to drive an hour just get to a hobby lobby store. Just try to get rocketry advice from a hobby lobby employee, most likely you will be met with a blank stare.

Don't get me wrong here, I think the internet is an awesome tool for our hobby, just look at this forum as an example. Without the net many of our current vendors and producers probably would not even be here and that would be a shame. I guess all I am trying to say is that if you are lucky enough to have a local hobby store supporting your community then you should support them as well.

Even if you are only flying 18mm BP motors, try a cluster of three Quest motors. I love flying 3 Quest motors in my Estes Ranger clone (it is really cool even on A6-4 motors, and kicks on B6-4 motors). The Quest motors are more smoky than the Estes motors and they boost really well. Even low power clusters can be a whole lot of fun!

I'm taking all the pointers and doing research on them
yes jpvegh it is a family owned hobby shop that's about 30 mins from my home I use often
Only problem is rockets don't seem to be their expertice that is they are more into radio control boats/cars they have a club that meets downstairs and a track ect... I did do some radio planes with them a few years ago and was thinking heli's but kept coming back to rockets. I asked them if they knew of any rocket clubs and got a dull stare with ya there was a group way back. I wish I could find someone else to learn form or at least share building ideas ect.. on mid power rockets. So if anyone knows of rocket clubs in maine or links to look for them that would help too.

dogfight said:

I'm taking all the pointers and doing research on them
yes jpvegh it is a family owned hobby shop that's about 30 mins from my home I use often
Only problem is rockets don't seem to be their expertice that is they are more into radio control boats/cars they have a club that meets downstairs and a track ect... I did do some radio planes with them a few years ago and was thinking heli's but kept coming back to rockets. I asked them if they knew of any rocket clubs and got a dull stare with ya there was a group way back. I wish I could find someone else to learn form or at least share building ideas ect.. on mid power rockets. So if anyone knows of rocket clubs in maine or links to look for them that would help too.

Click to expand...

Dogfight

I took a look at the NAR website and it does not list any chapters in Maine. There is a chapter in New Hampshire.


Kearsarge Area Rocket Society (KARS) #700
Michael Bellino
196 Rowe Mountain Road
Bradford NH 03221
Phone : (508) 833-2280

There is also one in Massachusetts.

Central Massachusetts Spacemodeling Society (CMASS) #464
Bill Spadafora
5 Granby Street
Saugus MA 01906
Phone : (781) 233-0339

I don't how close either of these would be to you but nothing is more informitive than actually seeing for yourself. Also if there used to be a club in your area there's a chance that some of the members now launch with one of these clubs. I would suggest contacting the club nearest you and maybe making a trip to one of their club launches.

Since you do have the asset of a local hobby shop you might ask them to keep an eye out for other rocketeers coming into their store. Perhaps leave a business card or contact info with them. There may be others near you who would be happy to meet with like minded folks to share info and fly on weekends. One more suggestion would be to post a thread titled "Looking for rocketeers in Maine".

Go to the NAR website and take a look around even if you are not ready to join there is a wealth of info there.

Couldn't find a NAR club in main but there is a Tripoli club. Here's the link https://www.pinetreerocketry.org/

There is also CMASS in Massachusetts, that is where I go. I think I know what hobby shop you are talking about...

dogfight said:

Can someone explain this to me and what/how to; maybe a pic or vid
"Have you tried clustering bp motors"
I'm using the info given and researching options thanks to all that are replying

Click to expand...

Here are a couple of my cluster rockets. The first is a scratchbuilt two 24mm cluster called Double Pumper. This flight is on two D12-5's. The video is on two E9-6's.

[YOUTUBE]aDYHGyWLux8[/YOUTUBE]

The second is a Mercury Engineering kit, called the Integrator. It's a big 4" diameter rocket that's relatively light. Here it's flying on three D12-5's.

[YOUTUBE]ydMX7BJ1UB4[/YOUTUBE]

I had found the Mass/N.H. clubs online just hoping If I put a plug out here maybe some Maine members might see it and tell me about an unpublished group or southern/central members that fly cause my diggings didn't come up with much at least locally. I saw a couple of post last year by a member - n1ypd - I think, talking about starting a club in mechanic falls area but the post ended so maybe he lost interest and dropped out of the hobby. I posted on his thread and sent him a pm but didn't see any activity. So thought I would add a plug here. Eggplant the shop is Ray and Robins and I have found them to be a good hobby shop would readily refer them to other hobbiest but like I said, more so for hard core radio/car/plane people.

Those are nice qquake2k
Thanks for the vids and links
You are allowing me to get a feel for the rocket plus a link to purchase it if that's where I want to go next
That's closer to having someone to talk to.

Years ago I built an Aerotech Strong Arm, but never flew it. I wasn't a member of a club then, and had nowhere to safely fly it. My son and his friends did fly it somewhere on a G80, and demolished it. I got back into rocketry in a big way a little over a year ago. Now I'm a member of two clubs, a member of the NAR, and have my Level 1 Cert. I never planned on getting my Level 1, didn't think I was interested enough in it, but somewhere along the line i got the "itch"!

My first true mid power rocket was the Mercury Engineering Hijacker. It's 3" diameter, 45" tall, has a 29mm motor mount, ejection baffle, nylon chute, and through the wall (TTW) plywood fins. All this for $40! Its first flight was on a single use (SU) F motor. I flew it on SU motors until I finally got the reload hardware. Now that's all I use. I have both 29mm and 24mm reload cases. The reloads are much less expensive than SU motors. I get most of my mid power reloads from Hobbylinc. A single use G80 is $17, and a G76 reload is $9. In just 4 launches or so you can recoup the cost of the reload hardware. Keep in mind, though, that if you lose a rocket with a reload casing in it, you're out that much more money. But to me, it's well worth the risk. And FYI, Hobbylinc doesn't charge any extra hazmat shipping fees on any of the motors they sell. When they say hazmat on their website, that just means they have to ship USPS ground.

[YOUTUBE]c_hbL9aWFj8[/YOUTUBE]

dogfight said:

Those are nice qquake2k
Thanks for the vids and links
You are allowing me to get a feel for the rocket plus a link to purchase it if that's where I want to go next
That's closer to having someone to talk to.

Click to expand...

You're very welcome. I love showing off my pics and vids! LOL

I and everyone on this forum are always happy to help. And don't ever worry about asking what you might think is a stupid question. There is no stupid question. We all were beginners once, and even experienced rocketeers are beginners. For instance, even though I'm a Level 1, I don't know much about dual deploy, so I'm still a beginner in that. And all that I've learned about dual deploy so far has been from this forum. There are a great bunch of people here!

I've also built some MPR/HPR "transition" rockets too, like the LOC Precision LOC-IV. The LOC-IV will fly on 38mm G's, as well as H's and I's. And with an adapter, you could fly it on 29mm G's. Here it is flying on a 38mm CTI G69 Skidmark. Love the roar of those sparky motors!

[YOUTUBE]Uz8PMY0xPkg[/YOUTUBE]

qquake2k, now thats what I'm talking about. Gotta love those smokey, sparkly, motors. BP just doesn't compare. There was a company back in the 80s that used to make very large (H size) BP motors that were very smokey and sparky that had aluminum casings. I can't remember the name of the company right now but you can imagine why they don't make those things anymore.

dogfight, I think I saw the thread you're talking about in the Watering Hole, it's titled "Maine". It looks like there's been some recent activity on that thread. A fella is trying to organize a NAR section, you might want to back and have another look at it.