Need cluster motor ignition tips

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The Vulconite is a fine choice of cert rockets - you only get 1800 feet on a H180 (at least that's my data from "Morning After Bad Thai Food") so the drift isn't so bad. You can have a lot of fun on the bigger motors, and if you build it to do DD at a later date....learn altimeters on it as well. It's really hard to get it to go out of sight on a H or I but will really scream on a J
 
Qualifying statement first - I don't have my L1 yet (I'm working on it).

Before I decided to design my own tube fin model that I plan to cert with, I was looking at the LOC Bullet. It has a 38mm mount, and LOC sells 29 to 38 adapters, so finding a good motor to fly it with won't be an issue. There were two reasons I was considering that bird.

1) The fins do not extend behind the aft end of the body tube. After reading a number of accounts of failed cert attempts, broken fins is one of the major failure modes. Remember that you have to get it back in rotator condition to cert. It's gonna hit the ground tail first, so take that into account.

2) Low altitude flight on an H motor. Keeping it low is not cheating. Remember, I said it has to come back in rotator condition - one of the keys here is "getting it back". If it floats away on a big chute because you achieved low Earth orbit, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot here. Also, it it hangs in a tree, you're still out of luck (one of the members of our NAR chapter failed to cert because of a rocket eating tree). So, keeping it low and flying to your field is not cheating, but flying smart! If you're gonna cert in a nice open desert and don't mind a long recovery walk, go for the gusto if you like. Me, I'm flying in a retired cow pasture in southern Indiana, se even a simmed altitude of 1400 feet makes me a bit nervous! :wink:
 
Qualifying statement first - I don't have my L1 yet (I'm working on it).

Before I decided to design my own tube fin model that I plan to cert with, I was looking at the LOC Bullet. It has a 38mm mount, and LOC sells 29 to 38 adapters, so finding a good motor to fly it with won't be an issue. There were two reasons I was considering that bird.

1) The fins do not extend behind the aft end of the body tube. After reading a number of accounts of failed cert attempts, broken fins is one of the major failure modes. Remember that you have to get it back in rotator condition to cert. It's gonna hit the ground tail first, so take that into account.

2) Low altitude flight on an H motor. Keeping it low is not cheating. Remember, I said it has to come back in rotator condition - one of the keys here is "getting it back". If it floats away on a big chute because you achieved low Earth orbit, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot here. Also, it it hangs in a tree, you're still out of luck (one of the members of our NAR chapter failed to cert because of a rocket eating tree). So, keeping it low and flying to your field is not cheating, but flying smart! If you're gonna cert in a nice open desert and don't mind a long recovery walk, go for the gusto if you like. Me, I'm flying in a retired cow pasture in southern Indiana, se even a simmed altitude of 1400 feet makes me a bit nervous! :wink:

Everything you said makes sense. I totally agree with going with a 38mm bird for an L1 rocket. As for the fins being above the tail, just remember that rockets usually touch down at some angle as they swing below the chute. Even when the fins don't extend below the rocket, the fins usually touch first. As for "flying smart", that is one of the things a lot of people don't learn until after their L1 or sometimes L2. Some never seem to learn it. As for the rocket eating trees, cert with Tripoli, the requirements state that the rocket has to be inspected but hanging from a tree or power line does NOT disqualify a certification.

If you really want your rocket down faster, you can alway do a dual deployment flight. I did that for my L1 and 3 of the last 4 L1 certs at the BattlePark were dual deployment. It's definately do-able.
 
I'm finished with idea of Viper IV (clusters a bad idea,Besides impossible with choice of rocket for L1 cert). Today I ordered LOC High Tech from Hobbylinc, single 38mm motor mount, should be MUCH better choice for L1 cert attempt, as well as small payload section will be handy for future Altimeter/Elect ect. Also ordered 2 8ct packs of Aerotech copperhead 8" ign. and 16 Quest Q2 4.5" ign. to see which works best for Viper IV cluster, as I've seen both examples posted as replies here.Someday I'll get to launch this BEAST! I did however finish it today, painted this morn, clearcoat drying right now.I'll be posting more pictures on Gallery section tonight of finished build, minus VIPER IV lettering in "army" style stenciling. Thanks again for all the input ( check out finished pics)
 
Don't forget that, although four E9s move into the realm of high power by virtue of their combined propellant weight, four D12s or four C11s suffer no such restrictions. Four C11s are at least an E, while four D12s are at least an F (I haven't done the math, so not sure where the fall. Also, you might get away with two E9s and two D12s -check the total propellant weight of such combos to see if they fall into low or high power ranges. So there is nothing stopping you from putting the LOC Viper IV up with smaller motors. And one you DO cert, you can then launch it with the E9s and even some more powerful composite motors if th mood strikes!:D
 
Don't forget that, although four E9s move into the realm of high power by virtue of their combined propellant weight, four D12s or four C11s suffer no such restrictions. Four C11s are at least an E, while four D12s are at least an F (I haven't done the math, so not sure where the fall. Also, you might get away with two E9s and two D12s -check the total propellant weight of such combos to see if they fall into low or high power ranges. So there is nothing stopping you from putting the LOC Viper IV up with smaller motors. And one you DO cert, you can then launch it with the E9s and even some more powerful composite motors if th mood strikes!:D
What's interesting is that you can't use four E9s in it without HP cert., but you can put four F32Ts into it with no restrictions. Blame the low Isp of black powder for that.

What's also interesting is that you can install a cluster whose total impulse is in the H range without restriction (if the total propellant mass is also less than 125 grams), but you cannot replace them with a single H without being certified for high power. The 4 x F32T cluster previously mentioned has a combined total impulse of 227.6 N-s (more than an AT H220R) and a combined propellant mass of 103.2 grams (more than many H motors), and yet it is within the limits of a "model rocket" cluster. I'm not complaining, though.
 
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Wow! my original question regarding reliable cluster ignition sure has alot of people discussing this topic.I'm glad to see all the advise and tips, I've gained alot of knowledge on this matter and lots of Ideas inspired! I never would have thought so many peoples brains would be working overtime....makes you realize how much you really know huh...Again Thanks for caring to share...As I stated though, firing smaller motors in this beast of a rocket would seem anti-climactic...like ordering a new Corvette, with a V-6! Although it would work out any bugs in ignition techniques, fin attachment and proper angles ect. My just ordered LOC High Tech will be my L1 cert attempt rocket, it should be here this week...another project to build, looks like I just finished this one in time for another....
 
Also ordered 2 8ct packs of Aerotech copperhead 8" ign. and 16 Quest Q2 4.5" ign. to see which works best for Viper IV cluster, as I've seen both examples posted as replies here.

You might want to change the order if possible, since copperheads are not suitable for clustering. The Quest Q2 G2 ignitors are great for black power clusters, but do not have enough pyrogen for consistent AP ignition without modification.
 
Wow! my original question regarding reliable cluster ignition sure has alot of people discussing this topic.I'm glad to see all the advise and tips, I've gained alot of knowledge on this matter and lots of Ideas inspired! I never would have thought so many peoples brains would be working overtime....
Nah, we just like to talk... :wink: Especially when it's a juicy topic like this one.
 
I know that's the conventional wisdom, but it was never my experience, having successfully used Copperheads on several cluster launches including notoriously tricky E15's and the much missed G42's.

You might want to change the order if possible, since copperheads are not suitable for clustering. The Quest Q2 G2 ignitors are great for black power clusters, but do not have enough pyrogen for consistent AP ignition without modification.
 
AeroTech specifically advises not to use their Copperhead initiator for cluster ignition.

The accomplished clusterers that I am familiar with recommend hand-dipping your own igniters, using supplies and pyrogen from vendors such as QuickBurst and Rocketflite.
 
I think the reputation of Copperheads come not from their ability to ignite. It is their delicacy. You need to keep the head up at the top of the motor, they are thin and like to slip. Then there is their ability to get badly kinked or twisted. When you keep them at the top, then use the plastic cap to squeeze them against the nozzle, they won't slip away from the top. But other methods like rubber bands and masking tape can work... but they can also allow slippage.

I have dozens and dozens of Copperheads. I guess whether I choose to use one is more a function of the cycle time if there is a misfire.

For clustering... it seems they are just a bit 'delicate' to get everything hooked up right and not twisted, kinked, and shorted. BTW: If you take a lighter to the non-pyrogen end (obviously!) the two copper conduits will separate. Done right, it can make then easier to hook up. But they are very thin!
 
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