Phonelic resin vendors

[ClayD]

Is anyone aware of vendors for phonelic resins? That would sell less than truckload qty. Around = or <1gallon?

[JDcluster]

I have about a 1 pint kit. It's in it's shrink wrap package. I don't even know if it's shippable?



JD

[ClayD]

I have about a 1 pint kit. It's in it's shrink wrap package. I don't even know if it's shippable?



JD

you would have to know the hazmat msds criteria i would suppose.
do you have the manufacturer data? probably could look it up fairly easy..

something you got off someone who bought a bunch???
i found some stuff 3m makes for an additive.. and want to try casting a couple fins.

[Stymye]

what is the advantage over epoxy ?
doesn't it require heat and high pressure ?

[ClayD]

what is the advantage over epoxy ?
doesn't it require heat and high pressure ?

heat and high pressure is the advantage over epoxy. I want to build a bird that can go to mach 2.5ish+ and survive... so making the nose cone and fins out of phoenolic is desired.

[ClayD]

I have about a 1 pint kit. It's in it's shrink wrap package. I don't even know if it's shippable?



JD

Do you know what brand it is, i found some haveg 4800 msds sheets, and it says it is shipable without - special stuff.. (but thats my non-expert reading)?
(they only sell in 55gallon drums... )- maybe a distributer will break it down. But, shelf life is only a month or so.
phenol, formaldihyde, and ethyl , are general industrial chem's..

[cjl]

heat and high pressure is the advantage over epoxy. I want to build a bird that can go to mach 2.5ish+ and survive... so making the nose cone and fins out of phoenolic is desired.

You really don't need phenolic for that. It can be done just fine with high-temp epoxy. The vast majority of the rocket will stay under 150F, and even the hottest sections shouldn't get over a couple hundred degrees or so. If you really want to be on the safe side, Cotronics makes an epoxy rated for five or six hundred degrees.

[ClayD]

You really don't need phenolic for that. It can be done just fine with high-temp epoxy. The vast majority of the rocket will stay under 150F, and even the hottest sections shouldn't get over a couple hundred degrees or so. If you really want to be on the safe side, Cotronics makes an epoxy rated for five or six hundred degrees.

My last rocket showed signs of 250 plus temps. it melted the epoxy coating.
No, it was not hightemp.
the high-temp epoxy requires a plethora of "environmental control" to produce thier expected values... phenolics are more forgiving in that sense...

[daveyfire]

the high-temp epoxy requires a plethora of "environmental control" to produce thier expected values... phenolics are more forgiving in that sense...

The USC rocket at Balls last year maxed out at 4500 ft/sec at 10,500 ft, or about Mach 4.16. The nose cone, built as a wet layup from carbon fiber with a PTM&W-manufactured epoxy resin, held up fine. (It might even have been Aeropoxy, I forget.) So did the airframe, and fins, and motor case, which were all prepreg carbon fiber with a normal epoxy resin. All the parts was cured in a scratch-built curing oven that was made from parts we bought at Home Depot. And it all had enough structural integrity to go 8 feet into the Black Rock playa when the nose cone got stuck on during deployment, and come out in one piece.

At Mach 2.5, I'd worry more about getting the fins on straight with symmetric bevels and using stiff coupling joints. I'm with Chris (as usual) -- for your purposes, epoxy should be fine.

[ClayD]

The USC rocket at Balls last year maxed out at 4500 ft/sec at 10,500 ft, or about Mach 4.16. The nose cone, built as a wet layup from carbon fiber with a PTM&W-manufactured epoxy resin, held up fine. (It might even have been Aeropoxy, I forget.) So did the airframe, and fins, and motor case, which were all prepreg carbon fiber with a normal epoxy resin. All the parts was cured in a scratch-built curing oven that was made from parts we bought at Home Depot. And it all had enough structural integrity to go 8 feet into the Black Rock playa when the nose cone got stuck on during deployment, and come out in one piece.

At Mach 2.5, I'd worry more about getting the fins on straight with symmetric bevels and using stiff coupling joints. I'm with Chris (as usual) -- for your purposes, epoxy should be fine.

you two are together.. ?? haha j/k

The pictures I saw showed ablating of the nose cone??? and delamination of the fins?? Granted thats mach 4... Geese.. or was that a different rocket ??

I am not looking to do a conventional layup.. I am going to machine a nice 2part (inside and outside face) mold, do a layup, and inject the resin and presurize to very high psi.(whatever the hydrolic forces of the mold yeilds)
I dont want to heat this thing(expansion of the molds)... so if it wont cure at (presurized- temperature) i am no good. (very similar to acrylic injection molding) Cotronics may very well have something that works. I am disapointed they dont provide msds on thier website.

This isnt really a build to prove mach 2.5, Jim J. does that all day long...i could always copy cat his techniques published on RP.. I also agree epoxy works for that temp..(not to sure what cotronics is - i cant find msds ..)
Albeit, a 2600psi shock wave, may start to delaminate things, i think this is where a phenoic has an advantage...

But, cobining this technique, with some special materials, I aim to make a single use booster that is (cast).. Sounds like the USC rocket had a "composite" motor case.... sounds like some very similar thinking...

[daveyfire]

you two are together.. ?? haha j/k

Hahahano. I appreciate the attempt at humor, except for the homophobic part. So, I guess I appreciate none of it.

The pictures I saw showed ablating of the nose cone??? and delamination of the fins?? Granted thats mach 4... Geese.. or was that a different rocket ??

Yea that was probably Ed Enyart's rocket or Jerry McKinlay's rocket, considering that those photos were of complete vehicles post-flight. Ed's rocket had intact laminate structures; most of the "goo" on the airframe was from melted paint. Jerry's rocket had the laminates peel off the fins, but I'm not sure of the construction technique he used.

But, cobining this technique, with some special materials, I aim to make a single use booster that is (cast).. Sounds like the USC rocket had a "composite" motor case.... sounds like some very similar thinking...

There is tremendous strength in a co-cured composite structure. Some of the challenges with composite pressure vessel systems are strain limits, sealing, and holding the ends in.

I can't attempt to address your process description, as it is completely incoherent. My god, doesn't your browser have a spell checker that puts squiggly red lines underneath things that are egregiously incorrect?

[ClayD]

Hahahano. I appreciate the attempt at humor, except for the homophobic part. So, I guess I appreciate none of it.
I can't attempt to address your process description, as it is completely incoherent. My god, doesn't your browser have a spell checker that puts squiggly red lines underneath things that are egregiously incorrect?

But, should be expected none the less.. it may have been in poor taste.(didnt mean anything personal buy it.)

I would never guess something as complex as injection molding to be sumized into 3 sentences coherantly. However, the method... will manufacture the motorcase/ airframe, and fincan in 1 process. At a constant temperature(not able to cook) Using the same method for the nose cone.

The process is so complex i dont want to even think about being able to spell it...

Sealing the ends, will be with "bolt" in bulkheads.

[cjl]

Albeit, a 2600psi shock wave, may start to delaminate things, i think this is where a phenoic has an advantage...

Why would you have a 2600 PSI shock wave? The stagnation conditions at mach 2.5 shouldn't result in anywhere near that pressure.

[ClayD]

Why would you have a 2600 PSI shock wave? The stagnation conditions at mach 2.5 shouldn't result in anywhere near that pressure.

that is a number completely out of may .. and have know clue what I am talking about...

[Stymye]

please take plenty of pics of the process ...sounds interesting !

I'm curious, where do you plant to fly this bunker buster ?

[jsdemar]

I'm curious, where do you plant to fly this bunker buster ?

You have it all wrong. First it flies, then it gets planted. Right, David? Long-time rocket flyers pack a shovel as a required piece of recovery gear.

[daveyfire]

First it flies, then it gets planted. Right, David? Long-time rocket flyers pack a shovel as a required piece of recovery gear.

HEY! I resemble that remark! Though I think you're a member of the prestigious "I've dug a rocket out of Black Rock" club, too...

Last year we discovered that the required pieces include shovel, and minibike. Shovel for digging the rocket out, minibike for going off the jumps you make with the resulting dirt.

[jsdemar]

HEY! I resemble that remark! Though I think you're a member of the prestigious "I've dug a rocket out of Black Rock" club, too...

LOL! Guilty as charged. And thanks for reminding me that I slept on the ground in an unheated tent at 22F that year! That was even cold for me and I'm originally from the Great White North.

[ClayD]

please take plenty of pics of the process ...sounds interesting !

I'm curious, where do you plant to fly this bunker buster ?

Yes,I will when i get it started.. or have something tangable..
Probably smaller test flights / rockets at Argonia, KS. On 54mm/75mm versions...on up to 6" versions at black rock...

The idea is to get as close to 50/50 resin/composite mixture through mass as possible, while having long strand composite in strain, and short strand composite to increase modulus. (that may sound dumb to some, but it makes sense in my brain and im fine with that on my level.)

making the hydrolic molds will be the hard part, and frankly is above my paygrade...nothing going to happen without S-L of work..(possibly years)

Due to varying pressure in the mold depending on the volume of resin at each area, it will cure differently at the fin roots than at the airframe, or forward bulkhead sections. (so to plant it...) would be a success in my book... my guess, is that the forward bulkhead and the motor comes apart, or the fins shread....

(i havent planted a rocket since my midpower days...) - dont plant to start!!