guidance

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Greg B

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Hello,
Has anybody worked on guidance systems for there rocket .
I have found a few people who have done it but wondering if anybody else
has.
My personal favorite is he work done by the guys of altius space prev. of
masten,There systems stability was excellent.

https://www.ukrocketman.com/rocketry/gimbal.shtml

Greg
 
If I understand correctly, there are some legal restrictions placed on guidance systems on amateur rockets in the US. That's all well beyond my level, but if anyone could summarize the practical implications in a nutshell I would be most interested.

From a security aspect, I am very curious how long it will be before restrictions are placed on model airplane based UAVs, now that he technology required to deliver several lbs. of C4 to someone's doorstep is down in the lower four figure price range.
 
The reason I asked about guidance system is that the few company's that
build or will build a complete guidance system are extremely expensive ,on the order of .5 to 1 mill dollars.

There have to be some lower cost alternative to controlling a rockets
trajectory.


Greg
 
Here in the US of A, a "guidance system" that seeks out a target (in the air, on the ground, anyplace at all....) is prohibited by law. A more practical consideration is that it would cost a fortune, and would be debateable whether it would actually make a rocket (low, mid, high power, or experimental) fly any higher.

A "guidance system" that simply keeps your rocket pointed vertically, to reach maximum altitude, is probably OK with the law.

Either way, a guidance system requires sensors, some sort of "computing" electronics, fast-acting actuators for the control surfaces, and a power supply. (You would need to use aerodynamic control surfaces because if you only vectored the motor thrust, you would have no control power left after burnout, during the coasting phase.) This stuff all costs weight. Cheap components weigh more (and are physically bigger, in general, causing more drag as well), lighter components cost more (to the ridiculous realms that you already pointed out).

And you still end up needing aerodynamic fins.

You are better off to work on a properly-balanced, stable design in the first place. Then, you won't have a heart attack if the ejection system fails and you end up with a lawn dart.
 
I posted a recent message in another thread with a reminder about the guidance projects I did. Mostly Sunguidance using aerodynamic controls (see my avatar) . Also some Gimbaled engine control, which Sunguidance was not too suitable for though a few flights worked:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=146960&postcount=17

What Powderburner said about guidance is correct, guidance that can hit a TARGET is not allowed. Guidance to make the rocket go mostly "UP", without the capability of tracking or hitting a target, is OK

Sunguidance in theory could hit a target..... but the sun is way too far for even the most powerful HPR rocket to make it there. For those who miss the point, Sunguidance only tries to "hit" the Sun, and falls .9999999+ Astronomical Units short of it, every time. Can't track anything else.

- George Gassaway
 
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It is interesting to hear that guidance to achieve vertical flight does not come with legal issues. The hardware required to implement a finless rocket (gryos, accelerometers, and fast CPUs) has gotten vastly smaller and cheaper in just the past five years. I'm sure it's do-able for just a few grand in hardware these days.

BTW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDMMVk4dAKI
 
I guess I should spelled out guidance as in flying in a certain and stable
trajectory either by gimbal the engine or movable fins

-----Not to hit a target------

I have found some miniature gyros and inertial units that are actually very reasonable costing.
They would have to be integrated to a control unit or microprocessor.

The price i mentioned in the earlier post was actually for a full up guidance
system capable of controlling an orbital capable vehicle.


Greg
 
Yep all done by the guys previously of masten aerospace .
Who have started there own company altius aerospace.
All in all some very smart and expensive guys to contract.



Greg
 
Basically, stabilization (which really is a form of guidance) is okay, from the sounds of it. Targeting is not.

I know some, such as George, have done it. I'd love to see such a project up close.

-Kevin
 
You can get a fairly accurate accelerometer that can sense G forces from all directions for around $20 in the form of a Wii nunchuck attatchment. Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_-YnFZFP8

That could be used if it would sense the high G forces involved with a rocket flight.

Just a thought.

Sam
 
You can get a fairly accurate accelerometer that can sense G forces from all directions for around $20 in the form of a Wii nunchuck attatchment. Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_-YnFZFP8

That could be used if it would sense the high G forces involved with a rocket flight.

The Nunchuck accelerometer is an ADXL 330, which only senses +/- 3G. It's a great little device, especially for that price (and with a joystick and two pushbuttons, all easily readable). I'm not sure how you'd use one to stabilize a rocket, though, at least without adding gyros as well (which would wind up doing all of the sensing work anyway).
 
Old High Power magazine. Look up Sun Seeker. Might even be in a Tripolitan mag, I don't remember for sure.
 
Hello,
After research and talking with other companies in the business, commercial
space flight does not seem to have to follow many rules,The newly instituted
launch license by the faa, at 6 months of paperwork and 100k in fees .
Itar is not even a consideration ,even when I mention the fact that a rocket
could be used as a delivery system.

When I asked how they get around the problem of gps system limit of
60Kfeet and 999knots ,they said there systems are unlocked.

Looks like the great space race has begun.
The fiction books always said the mining conglomerates would lead the
charge but it looks like the tourists are leading this one.


Greg
 
I posted a recent message in another thread with a reminder about the guidance projects I did. Mostly Sunguidance using aerodynamic controls (see my avatar) . Also some Gimbaled engine control, which Sunguidance was not too suitable for though a few flights worked:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=146960&postcount=17

What Powderburner said about guidance is correct, guidance that can hit a TARGET is not allowed. Guidance to make the rocket go mostly "UP", without the capability of tracking or hitting a target, is OK

Sunguidance in theory could hit a target..... but the sun is way too far for even the most powerful HPR rocket to make it there. For those who miss the point, Sunguidance only tries to "hit" the Sun, and falls .9999999+ Astronomical Units short of it, every time. Can't track anything else.

- George Gassaway


You obviously didn't see that Aerotech rocket in "Star Trek: Generations"...
Dr. Soran's solar probe hit the Veridian star within seconds of being launched...

That's ONE FAST ROCKET!!!!

Must have a warp drive hidden in there somewhere... LOL:)

Later! OL JR :)
 
Look for the stuff John Pursley did with gimballed rockets... he did at least two NARAM projects (large model rockets) including a finless Vanguard rocket with engine-gimbal stability, a Mercury Redstone, and a Saturn V (IIRC). I've seen/held the Redstone and Vanguard... You can check out his website at www.accur8.com

What John did was take a model airplane 'stabilizing' system (sort of an autopilot) that is equipped with four horizon sensors arranged in a horizontal 'ring'-- like the four cardinal points on a compass. The horizon sensors feed their input into a microcontroller, which then sends signals to the pair of servos controlling the engine gimbal mount... one for "pitch" and the other for "yaw". IIRC he said it was an off the shelf model airplane unit, slightly modified to fit in a rocket.

I asked him how it worked. He told me that the four horizon sensors look out from either the nosecone (in the Vanguard) or from a ring at the top of the body tube (in the Redstone) and sense the horizon... The sensors detect carbon dioxide, from what he told me, so they see the atmosphere below the horizon as "white" and the atmosphere above the horizon as "black", since it's looking out to infinity through hundreds or thousands of miles of atmosphere, whereas below the horizon there's only a couple miles at most of air between the sensor and the horizon, so that part of the sensor receives light that is blocked by the C02 in the miles and miles of atmosphere above the horizon... so each sensor "sees" a white and black bar, intersecting at the "middle" of the sensor's field of view. The microcontroller gets the feed for all four sensors, and compares the opposing pairs... if the rocket tilts substantially, the sensor on one side of the rocket will see mostly "ground" (a lot of white with just a little bit of 'black' at the top of the sensor's view) while the opposing sensor on the other side of the rocket will see mostly "sky" and very little or no "ground" (that sensor will see mostly black "sky" with just a little bit of "white" "ground" at the bottom of the sensor's view). The microcontroller simply compares the two signals and measures the discrepancy between the two, and then issues the appropriate directional command and proportion to the servo to "steer" the rocket engine which pushes the rocket back on course... The hardest part, he said, was "clocking" the system to ensure that the sensors and servos were 'in synch' and the microcontroller was steering the engine nozzle toward the sensor measuring more "sky" than "ground" to correct the trajectory. The other pair of sensors measure the yaw and the microcontroller feeds info to that servo in proportion as well. VERY slick system!

Now, the Redstone had scale fins, and was very light... it's a VERY large model but designed for "G" motor power and under the weight limits, so it's classified as a "large model rocket" and doesn't need a waiver to fly. It's true that the fins DO create some corrective force, which certainly helps during the coast phase, because basically the gimballed engine is of course most effective under thrust. BUT, a rocket with a certain amount of INTRINSIC STABILITY can fly with the same system without fins, even during coast... I asked John to explain it to me...

His Vanguard rocket (scale) of course had no fins, just like the prototype. Yet it flew perfectly with just the engine gimbal system for stability. What makes this possible is that the rocket's design has a large "fat" first stage about half the length of the rocket, transitioning down to a smaller "upper stage" for the other half of the rocket's length, so this helps to create stability similar to a cone or plate type stability... the smaller "upper stage" and larger "lower stage" tends to move the CP back, so with some careful tweaking of the CG location, you can achieve basic stability even without the gimbal system. John flew a subscale model of the Vanguard to test the hypothesis without guidance and it flew fine, so he told me. The gimbal system just gives it a lot more stability, since the aerodynamic stability without fins is VERY weak due to low corrective forces and moments of inertia... At liftoff, the gimbal system provides rock-solid stability through the thrust phase, and so long as the rocket doesn't enter the coast phase with high rates of rotation (swerving) the "intrinsic stability" and momentum keeps it going straight. Also, as John explained, thrust is NOT zero during the coast phase, contrary to popular belief... while thrust is ESSENTIALLY zero, as in not contributing to the acceleration of the model, the rocket engine during the coast phase IS putting out gas from the nozzle in the form of tracking smoke. While this effect is nil in regards to pushing the rocket, the gas coming from the nozzle DOES create a SLIGHT force that, when the engine is gimballed, acts (weakly) to correct the trajectory, so essentially the gimbal system continues to work, though at low efficiency, during the coast phase, to some degree...

Now, that said, the rocket needs at LEAST neutral stability for this to work... an INTRINSICALLY UNSTABLE design, like Ares I, which has a LARGER UPPERSTAGE and a SMALLER FIRST STAGE, will act just the opposite of the Vanguard, since the stage sizes are reversed... the larger upperstage moves the CP FORWARD instead of BACK like the Vanguard does, which is destabilizing. The gimbal system will NOT be able to cope with the aerodynamic forces inducing unstable flight after burnout-- not with the whisper of gas coming from the nozzle as the ONLY corrective force, and the rocket will become unstable at burnout. BUT, for "non-hammerhead" rocket designs (most rockets) knowing the limitations of the system, a workable solution can be achieved using a gimbal-thrust stabilized system.

Hope this helps! OL JR :)
 
Oh, BTW... I asked John Pursley about using "gyro-stabilized" systems... I figured with the popularity of RC helicopters that a gyro system wouldn't be very difficult to achieve...

He said he'd looked at it, but the problems are large-- gyros "wander" and the flight path with them, unless you have a corrective reference to "lock" the system.

The model airplane "autopilot" anti-crash system with the sensors works perfectly, and is easily adaptable, so he went with that...

later! OL JR :)
 
Hello,
Actually I am talking about a rocket 26 inches in diam and 40 feet tall
with 2 strap-on boosters for a combined total thrust of over 10000lbs.

So you can see that my end goal is lofty and expensive,but not as expensive
as you would think given the advances of carbon fiber ,aerogel insulation,etc.

But so far guidance seems to be by far the most expensive ,
a quote for a 350k and 2 years seems excessive for a imu/gps.

Believe it or not the saturn V guidance computer had an amazing clock speed
of 2048khz and 32k of magnetic core memory .

It really shouldn't be that hard with modern mem gyros and computers/micro controllers to duplicate or even exceed .

Greg
 
I built a gyro-controlled rocket a couple of years ago called the Quad Pod II. The website is located at https://home.swbell.net/davehein/ModX/quadpod_ii.html . I plan on rebuilding it as a more conventional looking rocket, but without fins. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to do much rocketry during the past year.

Dave
 
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Already having already done alot of work with PID loops ,I set out to
find out just how hard it is to make a vehicle fly straight.

Amazingly enough all of it is based on inverted pendlum theory.
With the math easily available the problem became one of feedback.

Mem Gyro's have drift problems in the long term,so a combination
of accelerometer and gyro is necessary to give good feedback.

Currently integrating all the equations to a microcontroller for testing.

Obviously I am not going to list a lot of details do to itar concerns.



Greg
 
Mem Gyro's have drift problems in the long term,so a combination
of accelerometer and gyro is necessary to give good feedback.

Greg

Current practice is to use magnetometers along with the gyros to null the gyro drift. The accelerometers will not be that useful for the small angular rotations (hopefully) during the flight.
 
Current practice is to use magnetometers along with the gyros to null the gyro drift. The accelerometers will not be that useful for the small angular rotations (hopefully) during the flight.

Accelerometers aren't useful at all, as soon as the rocket is airborne. When they are mounted at the center of gravity of the rocket, they only measure translational accelerations.
To get rotational data, one would have to use more accelerometers at multiple locations of the rocket and combine their data. But this would require to measure very small differential accelerations in the presence of quite significant common mode accelerations. I don't know if a practical system of this kind is feasible.

Reinhard
 
Actually your going the wrong way with this.
A lot of your cheaper accelerometers use gravity as a reference point
and thusly can see tilt.
That is NOT what we are doing,We are using an accelerometer to detect movement.
I simplified things and only described 1 axis but
to make this work there has to be 6 degrees of freedom.

By calculating the acceleration and the duration you can calculate
the distance/speed that the vehicle has moved.
For the accelerometer to give you the data you need the acceleration vectors of x,y,z .
Ideally if the rocket is going straight up there should only be z axis acceleration.
If you are to see any x or y acceleration the vehicle would be going sideways
and would need to send the appropriate movement to the gimbal.

Also keep in mind I am not building this for the 25-50 G's some of the high
performance rockets see.

Greg
 
Its was kinda of the idea to use old ,in public domain knowledge.
To eliminate/reduce itar compliance problems.
Off the shelf technology now ,was rocket science in the 50-70's,
and of course the IMU theory behind it still works.

So while the tech is available,meeting the .2deg accuracy is going to require
a very tight loop and some new application of filters .
After checking wind tunnel data I have found that do to high Length/Dia ratios that drag
increase exponentially with AOA above zero

While all the device mentioned above are nice ,none of them have the bandwith to
support an active guidance system.
Typical loop update is 125-250ms for this kind of control loop .

Greg
 
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Most of the SMM gyros seem to have a bandwidth in the neighborhood of 100Hz. This doesn't look incompatible with what you are trying to do. On the other hand, I'm quite sceptically about the desired precision of 0.2°, even over relatively short periods of time.

Reinhard
 
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