Ever seen a Polecat Thumper Jr.?

[UPscaler]

I bet you haven't like this. Let me play out the scenario for you...


Greg: "Justyn has a rocket called Thumper, flying on a K700, we have continuity, are you ready Justyn?"

Justyn:"yep"

Greg" "okay...5.4.3.2.1. laucnh [beeeeeeep]

WOOSH

Justyn: "WOW"

Me:"I still got it, looks good"

[insert charge event here]

Justyn: "there's an event"

Me: "I lost it"

Justyn: "I think it might be ballistic"

[eerie whistle]

Justyn" "BALLISTIC"

[THUD]

It came in about 60-70 feet behind the flight line, I dug out the tip of the nosecone, easily about two feet in the ground.

Yes, that's it in my hand

It bent the tip of the case dad and I had intended to buy off him next season...oh well.

[MarkII]

I see a something buried in the ground that at some point in the past had been a Polecat Thumper Jr.

I see dead rockets.

[UPscaler]

I see a something buried in the ground that at some point in the past had been a Polecat Thumper Jr.

I see dead rockets.

Creepy

It really was sad to see that happen. But it was scary that nobody could see it until it was too late, had it been above us, somebody could have been seriously hurt. The thing weighed 9 pounds!

[UPscaler]

I think he plans on getting the case cut down to a J

[UPscaler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdzloqCPEcU&feature=player_embedded

Here is the launch video, turn up the volume, and you can hear the whistle then the THUD.

This may give you guys an idea of how close it really was.

[fox_racing_guy]

It really was sad to see that happen. But it was scary that nobody could see it until it was too late, had it been above us, somebody could have been seriously hurt. The thing weighed 9 pounds!

Don't let that scare you to bad as it happens at every launch I go to. Last weekend I was walking through a field retrieving one of my own rockets that landed 1/3 of a mile away. It was a little windy out so I couldn't really hear much but the wind blowing. All of a sudden behind me "Thunk",, 15' away from me is this.

The weekend before that I was at MidWest Power taking photo's and while watching a rocket through my zoom I hear a "Thump" 6' in front of me is this.

I happily picked it up than walked up to the LCO table where I seen the flier walking back with the payload section. I handed it back to him and he was very happy to get it back relatively un-harmed (either of us )
My advise, don't stand around me at rocket launches

[UPscaler]

I actually had a L2 cert hit about 3 feet in front of me, it was on chute though.

I was out helping my dad look for his rocket, When I turned around I saw a bright red fin can right in front of my face. So I was a good spotter, then another one came in about 35 feet away from me. That ones chute was tangled, so it came in a little quicker.

[MarkII]

That's way many more recovery failures than should be happening.
What are people doing - letting their cats prep their rockets?

[eugenefl]

I don't mean this to be negative, but I honestly cannot believe our hobby has not yet seen a fatality. A rocket of almost any size coming in ballistic is probably going to do more than injure someone. It speaks volumes of the safety enforced at launches, but in all honesty the stories of rockets coming in ballistic near spectator areas is very common. More than anything, people just do not paying attention when they are prepping rockets and not actively spectating. I have personally seen a creation of mine have a motor failure at the nozzle on the way up and have a failed ejection and ballistic recovery. The crash happened at the edge of the flightline where people are typically not paying attention. I can't imagine how I would feel if one of my rockets damaged someone else's property let alone injure or fatally strike them. Sometimes I wonder - paying attention or not - if I would be able to dodge a falling rocket.

Stay safe. All eyes up. I hope we all never experience this event in our hobby - ever.

[MarkII]

Over the course of 10 total years in the hobby, I have never seen a rocket come in hot during any launch activity that I have ever participated in. I guess that I must not be launching with the experts...

[eugenefl]

Over the course of 10 total years in the hobby, I have never seen a rocket come in hot during any launch activity that I have ever participated in. I guess that I must not be launching with the experts...

LOL!

[ghrocketman]

Acchhh....making a far too big of a deel out of nuthin'- No Harm=NO FOUL !!
Good enuff, and Ity'll doo !!!

Just adds to the overall excitement of the hobby.
Rocketry devoid of danger = L-A-M-E-O, LAME-O !

Rocketry without thrill-a-minnit danger is about as logical as a Western movie without a hangin', NASCAR without a decent car MANGLIN' crash, or Amtrak without a canyon-plunging derailment; makes NO sense !

[MarkII]

Rocketry without thrill-a-minnit danger is about as logical as a Western movie without a hangin', NASCAR without a decent car MANGLIN' crash, or Amtrak without a canyon-plunging derailment; makes NO sense !

Oh no, my friend, you're wrong about that.

Trains slam head on into other trains that are coming at them on the same track.

It is buses crammed full of people that plunge into deep ravines.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BwwzqNb3g

[rocdoc]

Acchhh....making a far too big of a deel out of nuthin'- No Harm=NO FOUL !!
Good enuff, and Ity'll doo !!!

Just adds to the overall excitement of the hobby.
Rocketry devoid of danger = L-A-M-E-O, LAME-O !

Rocketry without thrill-a-minnit danger is about as logical as a Western movie without a hangin', NASCAR without a decent car MANGLIN' crash, or Amtrak without a canyon-plunging derailment; makes NO sense !

I hope this is meant as tongue-in-cheek. Even at that, it's weak. We've had some recent "mishaps" in the hobby and can't afford to even joke about the danger of balistic recovery being a part of the fun of the hobby, especially on a public forum.

Get your adrenaline fix by pushing the envelope in design, fabrication, altitude, whatever floats your boat. I'm just hoping that "Antagonization Alley" is somewhere way away from where I launch. Stirring up the pot just for the sake of doing it is "L-A-M-E-O, LAME-O"

Weak.

[MarkII]

What you said about taking the issue seriously is quite true, rocdoc, and that was the idea that I was trying to get across, too. But don't get too worked up over the previous comments. gh is fond of pushing back against the grain by using his own particular brand of sarcasm. I suspect that he does it to try to keep discussions like this from becoming too pious and sanctimonious.

[edwinshap1]

i was at an event this past weekend, and when a small estes R2F model would come in perfectly under parachute on the flight line, and a heads up would be called since it can still do damage, people look around at the ground. It was really interesting to watch. This small estes bird came in over the flightline, and the LCO said heads up, there's a rocket coming in over the flightline, and the 20 people right under the rocket started looking around like someone had dropped a wallet. Then it landed less than a foot from a 4-5 year old girl, and if i was her dad i would've been really scared, but her mom laughed since her daughter clapped.

I don't know, it's very dangerous, and i'm always looking up when i hear the swoosh of the engines until i hear another countdown going, but i do think that the idea of a large rocket coming in even really slow and people not immediately looking directly above them, but looking directly below is kinda hilarious :P ROCKETS COMING OUT OF THE GROUND :O ZOMBIE ROCKETS!!!!

[MarkII]

But be that as it may, when I read accounts of incidents like those that were mentioned earlier in the thread, I start to get the impression that the occasional ballistic return is simply accepted as more or less normal at some launches. I certainly hope that's not the case, but when so many people can jump right into a thread like this with their own stories of dodging large projectiles, you have to wonder what the heck is going on. Maybe I'm getting a distorted picture here, but what it seems like people are saying is that, "Well, you know, recovery failures just happen sometimes. Nobody likes it, but the reality is that they're going to occur from time to time at every launch and there's nothing that you can really do about it. After all, that's rocketry." My own experiences are that no, it doesn't just happen, at least not where I have ever been. But now I'm beginning to wonder if what I have experienced is the exception.

[MarkII]

I have never been an RSO, but if I was when an incident occurred like any of the ones that Braden described, I would immediately shut down the range and tell everyone to go home. I would tell them, sorry, but we're done for the day. I suppose that I may be demonstrating my lack of experience here. I guess I really should try to get more comfortable with the idea that people at a rocketry event will have to get out of the way of at least a few falling rockets each day. I obviously still have a lot to learn.

[epickett]

That's way many more recovery failures than should be happening.
What are people doing - letting their cats prep their rockets?

As anyone who has ever owned a cat knows - they're out to GET us...

[epickett]

I have never been an RSO, but if I was when an incident occurred like any of the ones that Braden described, I would immediately shut down the range and tell everyone to go home. I would tell them, sorry, but we're done for the day. I suppose that I may be demonstrating my lack of experience here. I guess I really should try to get more comfortable with the idea that people at a rocketry event will have to get out of the way of at least a few falling rockets each day. I obviously still have a lot to learn.

Seriously? I would certainly hope the range wouldn't be shut down for a rocket coming in hot out in the recovery area that doesn't endanger anyone. And if you've NEVER seen that happen at any launch you've attended, then you guys are GOOD. I've seen stuff happen to rockets flown by people who are pretty experienced...

[troj]

I have never been an RSO, but if I was when an incident occurred like any of the ones that Braden described, I would immediately shut down the range and tell everyone to go home. I would tell them, sorry, but we're done for the day. I suppose that I may be demonstrating my lack of experience here. I guess I really should try to get more comfortable with the idea that people at a rocketry event will have to get out of the way of at least a few falling rockets each day. I obviously still have a lot to learn.

That's basically the same as saying the range should be shut down when a motor doesn't have an ejection charge, or a motor suffers a CATO.

What's important, to me, is how people respond -- I've seen a very limited number of people who think a recovery failure is "meh, no big deal, who cares?" That's the wrong attitude.

The vast majority of folks I know and that I've seen suffer them immediately try to figure out what caused the recovery failure, and how to prevent it in the future.

But to shut down a range because of a recovery failure? I'd lay odds that no day at NARAM, NSL, or LDRS would ever run its fully scheduled time, if that were the SOP.

-Kevin

[bobkrech]

I have never been an RSO, but if I was when an incident occurred like any of the ones that Braden described, I would immediately shut down the range and tell everyone to go home. I would tell them, sorry, but we're done for the day. I suppose that I may be demonstrating my lack of experience here. I guess I really should try to get more comfortable with the idea that people at a rocketry event will have to get out of the way of at least a few falling rockets each day. I obviously still have a lot to learn.

Mark

Our hobby is self-regulating, and has done a pretty good, but not great job of launching safely, but there's always room for improvement. The RSO should be the one that runs the show, and who's word is law, and when his law is broken, he must immediately act to rectify the situation.

The RSO should check the setup range before starting the launch to insure that the ballistic impact zone is pointing away from the spectator area, and that high power rockets will not be going over the spectator area. (IMO this is an essential safety requirement for any high power launch.)

As the launch progresses, the RSO should be watching the pads, and not allow the launch of any rocket if the owner has angled the rods so the trajectory goes over the spectator area. The RSO can't be everywhere, so if an incident does occur where rocket lands ballistically close to the spectator area, or near an individual, he should stop the launch, determine what happened, take corrective actions, and make an annoucement about safety, and then continue with the launch.

He also needs to have a stern discussion with the rocket owner and find out exactly why and how the event occurred, and take whatever diciplinary action he deems necessary. I've told folks who did similar things that they were done launching for the day, and once required an individual write an incident report before I let him participate in the next launch.

Bob

[cobra1336]

Call me a chicken if you want but I have seen a few come in ballistic. Now what I do is while I'm watching, I know where the nearest trailer is. I try to set up camp near a vendors trailer. When I hear the whistle coming in and can't tell where it is I jump into the nearest trailer. I don't care who's trailer it is as long as I don't damage anything. Might save me. Thankfully I haven't had to yet but I have started to head towards a trailer and the owner usually thinks its funny. I don't.

[patelldp]

I have never been an RSO, but if I was when an incident occurred like any of the ones that Braden described, I would immediately shut down the range and tell everyone to go home. I would tell them, sorry, but we're done for the day. I suppose that I may be demonstrating my lack of experience here. I guess I really should try to get more comfortable with the idea that people at a rocketry event will have to get out of the way of at least a few falling rockets each day. I obviously still have a lot to learn.

Speaking as someone who has been to an ASTRE launch, I understand Mark's point of view. It is a club with a field that does not support mid to high power rockets. I remember, years ago, going there and flying a Lil' Nuke on an E, and the 2 other people that were there were blown away. If there was a lawn dart at ASTRE, it would be very easy to shut down. There's very little in the way of pads and launch systems, and attendance is very low. At something like MDRA or Kloudbusters, you'd be sending hundreds of people home, some who traveled great distances to be there.

It's all relative, certainly, but the majority of ASTRE rocketeers are Estes-only flyers. Inherently, the larger rockets have more going on that is not manufactured in to the process, and therefore there is more room for error or failure.

For example, my lawn dart (presumed, never found it) at the last launch was a mistake that I made due to a miscommunication between a vendor and I. I was given one kind of e-match (high current) when I needed another (low current). My fault? No.

[UPscaler]

Well, Mark, both the rockets that were fairly close to me were on chute. The one that came right over my head was on a way oversized 5 foot chute, so had it hit me it would have thumped me a little, but nothing drastic, the other's chute was tangled and it was a good 30 feet away.

[MarkII]

Speaking as someone who has been to an ASTRE launch, I understand Mark's point of view. It is a club with a field that does not support mid to high power rockets.

That's true about HPR, but our members, including me, put up any number of rockets on E through G motors at every club launch. All of ASTRE's launches permit motors up through G, and rockets with weights up to 3.3 lbs. (If anyone wants to launch a rocket that is heavier than that, they need to notify the club in advance so that we can file the proper notifications with the FAA.)

It's all relative, certainly, but the majority of ASTRE rocketeers are Estes-only flyers.

Definitely not true now, and it hasn't been true since I have been a member. My first club launch in April 2006 culminated in the flight of my 29mm minimum diameter rocket on an F25. We do have some members who launched quite a bit of MPR years ago, but who only launch LPR because their primary interest is in NAR competition rocketry now. But another one of our members has his Level 3, a few more have Level 2 certification, and one of our most active members is also a Tripoli Prefect. The only thing holding us back from including HPR in our launches is the lack of a suitable field (and we've been looking for one for quite some time now). Tripoli Albany doesn't even have a field. But the interest is there in ASTRE. Most of our members who launch high power do so with either METRA in Pine Island or with CTRA/NARCONN in Hurley. Both of these locations are in the Hudson Valley well to the south of the Capital District. I am well to the north of the club and I am more than twice as far away from these sites. (Pine Island is more than 6 hours away from me.) I drive 3 hours each way just to get to ASTRE's launches, and my remoteness from upstate high power launches has been a significant impediment to my own process of certifying and launching rockets on high power motors. I have been pursuing Level 1 certification for the past 4 years. The only HPR launch that I have been able to get to so far was NARAM-51, but unfortunately I did not bring any HPRs with me to that one (and I'm still kicking myself for it).

[troj]

The only thing holding us back from including HPR in our launches is the lack of a suitable field (and we've been looking for one for quite some time now).

That's one of the biggest challenge a lot of clubs face.

Looking at maps, it looks like one of your challenges is that land that's not full of trees is a bit heavily populated for larger rockets.

-Kevin

[MarkII]

My comment about shutting the range down can be attributed to my lack of experience in dealing with or even seeing any of this sort of thing. Clearly I didn't know what I was talking about.