Black Powder for Ejection Charge

[TV4225]

Can someone tell me where people are purchasing their black powder for ejection charges. Went to Bass Pro Shop but they said they can't sell black powder to anyone unless purchased with a firearm. They then pointed me to some FFFg powder that the salesperson in the gun shop said I could buy, but when I got to check-out they said I needed a firearms license.

I reside in Illinois and need to be educated where and what it takes to make this type of purchase.

[WillMarchant]

I don't know about your regulations. You should talk to your local club.

AeroTech sells capsules of BP. Download their catalog to order direct.

[powderburner]

You may want to switch over to one of the BP "substitutes" like Pyrodex. They can be made to work as ejection charge material but take a slightly different approach (have to be contained somewhat more strongly to encourage more complete combustion & proper ejection). If you do a search here using the header button, try the keyword "pyrodex"

Some people have been mail-ordering their BP but when you start out with an over-priced product (a one-pound purchase will be at a higher rate than 20 or 100 lb), add hazmat charges and shipping fees, you end up with some pretty pricey BP.

You didn't hear me say it, but the most practical approach might be to find an inexpensive BP-burning firearm (make sure you find one that requires "primer" powder) and "take up" the shooting sports. Then you can show the idiots at the store your new noise-maker and dodge all those stupid questions.

BTW, you should know that if you purchase 50 lb of rocket motors (actually, any amount) with BP ejection charges, that is legal (if the BP is "for use as an ejection charge in a rocket"). If you purchase 50 lb of BP for your rifle or pistol, that is legal. If you purchase one grain (1/7,000th of a pound) for use in your powderburning firearm but instead use it for a rocket's ejection charge (without having a Low-Explosive Users Permit, or an explosives storage locker, or a bunch of other nonsense), that is apparently a federal offense. Go figure.

[TV4225]

Thanks for the feedback--it was funny that the guy at the gun counter said to purchase the pyrodex, but the check-out lady said she couldn't sell without a firearms license.

Could you possibly explain more about having this being contained more strongly?

Thanks again for your insight

[Bazookadale]

Try this site http://pratthobbies.com/info_pages/pyrodex/pyrotest.htm

[Zeus-cat]

I use Pyrodex for ejection charges for dual deploy rockets. Where black powder can be placed loose in the top of an Aerotech 24mm reload case and go off very nicely. Pyrodex will just fizzle if left loose.

To make Pyrodex charges you have to package it tightly so that the pressure builds up as it burns. I use the Christmas tree bulb method.

1) Take an old Christmas tree bulb, break off the top of the glass (making sure the filament is intact) The resistance should be close to 2 Ohms.

2) Put heat shrink tubing around the base of the bulb and heat it up so that it tightens down, but that the top is still open

3) For my small rockets (up to 3 inch diameter and 8 inch long parachute bay) I pour in 1/8 teaspoon of FFFg Pyrodex so that it surrounds the filament.

4) Put some wadding in the top to hold the powder in place.

5) Tape over the top of the assembly and all of the heat shrink tubing with electrical tape. You want it tight, but not so tight that you might break the filament.

6) Check the resistance. Anything in the 2 to 4 Ohm range is good for me.

I have a Perfectflite altimeter and this is the method they suggest on their website. You can go there for more info.

[sparky]

I live in Illinois too, but I already knew they would tell me that. Even if somebody from IL. goes to Mo. to buy it you still have a Illinois license so you have to play by Illinois laws. So I had a friend that lives in MO. go to bass pro and buy a pound for me. In Missouri you don't need a firearms license to buy black powder but in Illinois you do. If you live near Mo. you can do the same thing but if you live somewhere else your on your own. Good luck.

[Gnomad]

If you are up for a little cooking, consider using crimson powder.

[Edit: The formula can be found on Richard Nakka's web site.]

This is very easy to make, more powerful than BP, ignites easily, and best of all, leaves far less residue and smell than BP.

[Stradivari]

Real Black Powder is hard to come by most places. The requirement for a magazine to store it in keeps most guns stores from carrying it. I live in Texas about 150 miles from San Antonio. There is only one gun shop in San Antonio that carries it that I know of. I have only ever used the real stuff in my muzzleloaders and since I have a flintlock pistol I have a can of FFFFG that will probably last forever (it does not take much to prime the pan)

Dwight

[TV4225]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions--I was wondering, there have to be a bunch of people out there that are making their own ammo reloads, including those in Illinois. How do they come by their black powder?

[GaryT]

Can't help with getting BP but when you find it this is where to put it

NEW! THE BLASTCAP @ www.blastcaprocketry.com

[Stradivari]

Have there been any good research into using a wast smokeless powder like Bullseye or Red Dot. They don't really have to go bang, just generate gas.

Dwight

[Gnomad]

Have there been any good research into using a wast smokeless powder like Bullseye or Red Dot. They don't really have to go bang, just generate gas.

I recall reading that this has been done with success. The trick, just as with pyrodex, is to make sure that it burns in a confined space. Unfortunately I cannot recall where I found this info.

[powderburner]

...I was wondering, there have to be a bunch of people out there that are making their own ammo reloads, including those in Illinois. How do they come by their black powder?

Very very few ammo reloaders use BP as a propellant for cartridges or as loose fill. The stuff can be quirky about storage, it can seemingly self-ignite if a spark or static discharge shows up from somewhere, it can deteriorate during storage and deliver disappointing performance, and it is a significantly weaker propellant than modern nitrocellulose-based options. Most important of all, BP leaves behind some very nasty chemical by-products, many of which will corrode and damage the insides of a firearm mechanism and barrel.

About the only folks I know that still reload with BP are some of the "action cowboy" shooters. They are not after any useful level of ballistic performance other than hitting a paper target a few feet away. They might like the authenticity of the smell and the smoke, but they also have to thoroughly and immediately clean their equipment.

Shooters who enjoy antique (or antique-style) BP firearms make up something like 1% of 1% of the shooting world, at least in terms of ammo/supplies sales (and I'm including the cannon-heads out there). It's just not a big market, and there aren't many stores left anymore that handle this stuff.

[Gnomad]

Very very few ammo reloaders use BP as a propellant for cartridges or as loose fill. The stuff can be quirky about storage, it can seemingly self-ignite if a spark or static discharge shows up from somewhere, it can deteriorate during storage and deliver disappointing performance, and it is a significantly weaker propellant than modern nitrocellulose-based options. Most important of all, BP leaves behind some very nasty chemical by-products, many of which will corrode and damage the insides of a firearm mechanism and barrel.

About the only folks I know that still reload with BP are some of the "action cowboy" shooters. They are not after any useful level of ballistic performance other than hitting a paper target a few feet away. They might like the authenticity of the smell and the smoke, but they also have to thoroughly and immediately clean their equipment.

Shooters who enjoy antique (or antique-style) BP firearms make up something like 1% of 1% of the shooting world, at least in terms of ammo/supplies sales (and I'm including the cannon-heads out there). It's just not a big market, and there aren't many stores left anymore that handle this stuff.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Black powder does not degrade. If kept from moisture, black powder will last pretty much forever. There are stories of loaded pistols found on archeological digs that fired after 150 years.

Black powder is not as potent as modern smokeless powders, but it can certainly deliver acceptable performance. The use of black powder does not limit accuracy either.

The accuracy of my replica 1858 Remington (a black power percussion cap handgun) exceeds my ability to shoot it. There are no effective differences between originals and replicas, BTW. Either an original or a replica worked over by a good gunsmith is capable of even greater accuracy.

I have also never had any problems purchasing black powder. There are a number of gun shops in town (including the local Bass Pro) that carry it, at least FFF grade. FFFF is somewhat more difficult to locate, but I have never had any reason to use it.

When I got back into rocketry I started using BP in my ejection charges, but as you point out, it does leave a stinky, sulphury, residue. All of my rockets are paper, which means they cannot be washed out and must be stored indoors. When the smell started to be an issue, I tried some crimson powder and have been using it ever since.

[bobkrech]

The federal regulations concerning BP are clear. (but they don't make a lot of sense.)

1.) If you use BP for antique fire arms, you do not need a BATFE explosives permit.

2.) For all other application, you need a BATFE explosives permit.

In some states, you can walk into a store and buy a pound of BP simply by presenting ID to show you are over 18. In other states, you may need to show a FID card or a hunting permit.

1.) If you use BP in a firearm, you can store a few pounds of it on a shelf in your house. If you don't and have an explosives license, you have to store it in a magazine.

BP substitutes such as Pyrodex(R), Triple Seven(R), etc. are not specifically regulated so you can purchase it in most states without permits. The same holds true for smokeless powders (nitrocellulouse). These items are more energetic than BP, so you need less of each for ejection, but they burn a lot slower than BP, so they are a lot harder to ignite, and will only work as ejection charges if confined during the early stages of ignition.

At TRF we do not recommend that you make your own BP substitutes. While an earlier poster recommended making crimson red, I would caution you that it require grinding, which if not done properly, can cause an explosion, and in the quantities in the reference, could kill you. (It is also not legal in many states to make an explolsive without a permit.)

We also do not recommend you take apart a BP motor to recover the tiny amound of BP in the ejection charge. It dangerous, and if you have no other recourse, it's cheaper to buy BP ejection charges from AT.

Bob

[Stradivari]

You will find that anyone shooting a flint lock needs real Black Powder both for the pan and the main charge. There are lots of folks who participate in Muzzle Loader shooting and most of them would not be caught dead with Pyrodex or some such. The guys that shoot the big bench rifles (called slug guns) do some amazing shooting. There is also a fair amount of Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette shooting going on as well, As to the legal problems I guess you can always keep your muzzleloading pistol handy. Seriously, I don't think the BATF would have any sense of humor regarding anything. It kins of puts us in a bad position for our ejection charges. Black powder is not all that corrosive if you clean your gun right away using lots of hot water. I have had no problems with the four I own.

Dwight

[Stradivari]

I am very unsure about regulations regarding BP. If you have a bunch of Estes engines you have a bunch of black powder. If you have any reloads or single use AP motors you have a fair amount. I'm just not sure, and I'm not going to call up the BATFE and ask!!!

DLB

[bobkrech]

I am very unsure about regulations regarding BP. If you have a bunch of Estes engines you have a bunch of black powder. If you have any reloads or single use AP motors you have a fair amount. I'm just not sure, and I'm not going to call up the BATFE and ask!!!

DLB

I'm not.

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 555—COMMERCE IN EXPLOSIVES
Subpart H—Exemptions
Browse Next
§ 555.141 Exemptions.
however
§ 555.141 (a) (10) (i) is blantantly incorrect with respect to APCP and should be reworded!

(10) Model rocket motors that meet all of the following criteria—
(i) Consist of ammonium perchlorate composite propellant, black powder, or other similar low explosives;
(ii) Contain no more than 62.5 grams of total propellant weight; and
(iii) Are designed as single-use motors or as reload kits capable of reloading no more than 62.5 grams of propellant into a reusable motor casing.

Title 16: Commercial Practices
PART 1500—HAZARDOUS SUBSTANCES AND ARTICLES; ADMINISTRATION AND ENFORCEMENT REGULATIONS
Browse Previous | Browse Next
§ 1500.85 Exemptions from classification as banned hazardous substances.

_____________________

1.) Estes rocket motors have always been exempt from BATFE regulations.

2.) Bulk BP is not BATFE exempt for uses other than antique firearms.

3.) Enforcement is inconsistent and largely left up to state and local authorities.

RHK

[sandmantoy]

Best way to buy 4F BP is through this place, in the US you are allowed to buy 10LB per year. Also this works out if it is being purchased by a rocket club and distributed with the members of the club. Just everyone pitches for the purchase, at least 10 members for the ten pounds. Pick a reliable member to be the purchasing agent.

These guy's are good to deal with and very professional. A hint don't order any amounts that are hard for them to pack, stick with there lot sizes. I have ordered from them several times. Then it is up to you to follow the rules on it's use and storage. Make sure it is shipped to where someone can receive it, it will need a signature to be released. The purchasing agent will need to fax them a copy of there drivers license and the form which can be copied from there website.

http://www.powderinc.com/