History Made with NK

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Mushtang

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Love Trump or hate him, you can't deny this is a significant and historical moment. It doesn't appear that the agreement is much more than a very important first step but the way it was made sets it apart from the previous times NK agreed to denuclearize.

I'm sure Japan and South Korea are breathing a little easier today.

I wonder if the people of NK even know about it and what changes they'll see in their lives?
 
Let’s hope for success and an end to the Korean conflict.
 
I hope for success and peace, but this "history made" statement sounds an awful lot like past "history made" statements.

1992: North Korea signs an agreement that they will not build nuclear weapons or enrich uranium, including IAEA inspection oversight
1993: NK refuses IAEA inspections of two sites after the IAEA had strong evidence that NK was cheating on its commitments. NK withdraws from the Non-Proliferation Treaty, then un-withdraws.
1994: NK signs an agreement allowing IAEA inspectors access to nuclear sites, then denies access to a plutonium reprocessing plant. Later in the year, a deal is signed where NK will eliminate all of its nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees and normalization of political and economic ties.
2000: NK and SK sign a deal "agree[ing] to resolve" the question of reunification of the Korean Peninsula, and opening economic and cultural exchanges. The US drops some of its sanctions.
2002: NK acknowledges that it has a secret uranium enrichment program. NK tells the IAEA it is restarting its nuclear facilities for power generation only. In December, NK cuts all IAEA seals and disables monitoring equipment at its nuclear sites.
2003: NK withdraws from the Non-Proliferation Treaty and tells the US it has already built a nuclear weapon and is reprocessing spent fuel for more nuclear material. NK says they might get rid of their nuclear program but would expect "something substantial" in return.
2005: Uranium hexafluoride believed to be from NK is found in Libya. NK commits to "verifiable denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula" and to re-join the Non-Proliferation Treaty.
2006: NK conducts an underground nuclear weapons test.
2007: NK agrees to an action plan to implement the 2005 agreement, where NK will shut down its nuclear facilities in exchange for lifting economic sanctions. The IAEA confirms shutdown of NK's nuclear reactors.
2008: NK agrees to account for its plutonium-based weapons program and its proliferation activities. NK removes IAEA seals from its nuclear facilities and says it will start up the facilities. A new agreement is signed allowing IAEA inspection of NK's nuclear sites. The US removes NK from its list of state sponsors of terrorism.
2009: NK ejects US and IAEA inspectors from its nuclear sites. NK conducts another underground bomb test.
2010: NK tells Chinese officials that it is still committed to denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula. NK announces a new uranium enrichment facility, purportedly for peaceful power generation only.
2012: The US an NK sign an agreement to halt NK's missile and nuclear programs, including IAEA inspection, in exchange for food aid.
2013: NK announces that it will conduct another nuclear test and continue missile launches. NK conducts another underground nuclear test and restarts is nuclear reactor.
2016: NK tests a hydrogen bomb.

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron

Forgive me for being skeptical until we see results that last for more than a few months.

Also, what was agreed to was extremely fuzzy, sort of like "agreeing to begin planning the planning process" rather than concrete steps with timelines.
 
I'm with Boatgeek, time will tell. I hope this is truly a momentous event, but I have huge reservations.
 
I hope for success and peace, but this "history made" statement sounds an awful lot like past "history made" statements.

Exactly my read - NK has committed to nothing concrete, gave up absolutely nothing, and got plenty in return:
+ worldwide recognition of their Dictator
+ cancellation of US + SK training exercises (degrading our ability to defend SK)
+ all expenses paid trip Kim's vaca in Singapore

Everything else is a re-hash of the promises made by Clinton's administration, and repeated by others since then...

Did I miss anything?
 
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Trust me: We are not degrading our ability to defend SK. The SKs and US forces are ready to defend if the call is made.
 
Trust me: We are not degrading our ability to defend SK. The SKs and US forces are ready to defend if the call is made.

Japan / Japanese too, if I recall..

Apparently the news of eh meeting was broadcast on NK News (propaganda) cast..

from: https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc63cc3e1b8a




North Korea’s official media have reported that leader Kim Jong Un is in Singapore to meet President Donald Trump to discuss how to forge a new relationship.

The first word Kim is in Singapore for Tuesday’s summit came early Monday morning. Though North Koreans have been left largely in the dark about the summit, the reports of his arrival came relatively quickly by North Korean standards.

A dispatch by the state-run Korean Central News Agency says Kim and Trump will exchange “wide-ranging and profound views” on establishing a new relationship, the issue of building a “permanent and durable peace mechanism” and realizing the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

The report notes the summit is being held “under the great attention and expectation of the whole world.”
 
The SK military is exceptionally well trained and staffed and ready to go.
 
I love how "certain people" are pretending that they wouldn't be completely foaming at the mouth and losing their minds if this was Obama (or Hillary, or Bernie, etc.). When we all know that they would be running in the streets screaming bloody murder at how horrible this all is, and calling for impeachment/jail/hanging.

I also love how I'm about to be accused of turning this thread "political".

It's all so much fun.

ssixsixsix
 
I think the historic part is never has a current american president met with a current NK leader.
 
I hope for success and peace, but this "history made" statement sounds an awful lot like past "history made" statements.
How are any of those in the same league? Those all happened with NK acting on their own, or their ambassadors meeting with someone else. This is the President of our country meeting with the leader of NK and shaking hands, working towards peace, ending an era of wondering if they're going to attempt to unleash something that we have to counter.

And what's wrong with the initial summit being only "agreeing to begin planning the planning process"? It's a start. It's better than not meeting and not agreeing on anything. Some people need to only have summits while signing an iron clad agreement that everything ends today, and while the signing is happening the nuclear facilities are being dismantled. It's more than we've ever had before with NK, how can that not be good?

I'm perfectly okay with being skeptical, but I've seen too many people flat out hope that it doesn't work just so Trump doesn't succeed. That's ridiculous.
 
I'm perfectly okay with being skeptical, but I've seen too many people flat out hope that it doesn't work just so Trump doesn't succeed. That's ridiculous.

For what it's worth......I doubt you could find someone who is more disgusted and "unenthusiastic" about our current president than myself. And even I hope this succeeds.

ssixsixsix
 
Maybe this will result in a new Vulcan proverb, 'Only Trump could go to North Korea'.
 
Not quite yet but progress has been made.
For clarity I was being facetious / sarcastic, referring to the infamous Bush 43 mission accomplished statement. It's easy for politicians to claim success prematurely.

I think it is good to engage, so I actually support this move by Trump. Let's see if anything can come of it (I doubt it, in long term terms).

For those that think KJU got much from this, sure it was a photo opportunity and precedent setting adding to his dignity. But I refer you to Rule of Acquisition 109: Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
 
How are any of those in the same league? Those all happened with NK acting on their own, or their ambassadors meeting with someone else. This is the President of our country meeting with the leader of NK and shaking hands, working towards peace, ending an era of wondering if they're going to attempt to unleash something that we have to counter.

And what's wrong with the initial summit being only "agreeing to begin planning the planning process"? It's a start. It's better than not meeting and not agreeing on anything. Some people need to only have summits while signing an iron clad agreement that everything ends today, and while the signing is happening the nuclear facilities are being dismantled. It's more than we've ever had before with NK, how can that not be good?

I'm perfectly okay with being skeptical, but I've seen too many people flat out hope that it doesn't work just so Trump doesn't succeed. That's ridiculous.

Several of the things I listed were items that the NK government negotiated, Kim Jong Il publicly said he agreed to, and then fell apart within three months. There are also lots of times when things were agreed to in principle and then that agreement fell apart because one side or the other did something to blow it up. There were lots of times when inspectors came in and reactors were shut down only to start up again in a few months to years. Nowhere is Reagan's "Trust but verify" more important than here. I agree that KJU signing on says a lot. It would be really interesting to see how much of what we see as the agreement is actually broadcast to the NK people.

I'm probably in competition with Ssix in how much I dislike the current president. I hope Trump and KJU succeed because it would be a win for peace. I just want to caution on counting too many chickens before they hatch. Even with an ironclad agreement, history says we need to be cautious about how much we trust NK.
 
It is better that we talk to them then not. I too have reservations, but there is really nothing to loose by talking with them. Maybe we can actually accomplish something- time will tell.

As to folks who say meeting with Un legitimizes him. This is a weird statement. He IS the undisputed leader/ruler of his nation. Whether you like him or his methods matters not- he is the leader.
 
I think the historic part is never has a current american president met with a current NK leader.

That’s not because they couldn’t have arranged such a meeting - but because at no point did they feel such a meeting was appropriate.

Dialog is better than threatening to glass cities over a twitter though, so there’s that.

30 million starving North Koreans are still suffering and starving but at least Trump and Kim have finally settled who has a bigger rocket and zipped up so we can all come out of our fallout shelters.
 
That’s not because they couldn’t have arranged such a meeting - but because at no point did they feel such a meeting was appropriate.

Dialog is better than threatening to glass cities over a twitter though, so there’s that.

30 million starving North Koreans are still suffering and starving but at least Trump and Kim have finally settled who has a bigger rocket and zipped up so we can all come out of our fallout shelters.

Clearly someone took some tranqs to stifle that twitter urge. That accomplishes nothing good.
 
Dialog is better than threatening to glass cities over a twitter though, so there’s that.

I agree. I don't like threads, I think the threats of war are what sometimes force rogue nations to the negotiating table.

In general, we need to celebrate the potential opportunity for success and ignore our own political beliefs. In general, political comments and discussions are frowned on in the forum, but acknowledging a potential historic event by our executive branch is not. Please do not let this discussion boil into a liberal vs conservative or political party discussion.

I reviewed the thread and thus far it has not.

For clarity I was being facetious / sarcastic, referring to the infamous Bush 43 mission accomplished statement. It's easy for politicians to claim success prematurely.

I think it is good to engage, so I actually support this move by Trump. Let's see if anything can come of it (I doubt it, in long term terms).

For those that think KJU got much from this, sure it was a photo opportunity and precedent setting adding to his dignity. But I refer you to Rule of Acquisition 109: Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.

Just talking without threats is success in my book.
 
Being a 'leader' matters not to me.

I am not saying he is a good person, nor am I saying that NK is a place anyone wants to be.
He is their leader, a position he inherited. Whether you or anyone else recognize him as such means absolutely nothing as it is a fact.

Let’s hope that in the long run he is more sensible than his father. Let’s hope that he realizes that there can be a better way.
 
I am not saying he is a good person, nor am I saying that NK is a place anyone wants to be.
He is their leader, a position he inherited. Whether you or anyone else recognize him as such means absolutely nothing as it is a fact.

Let’s hope that in the long run he is more sensible than his father. Let’s hope that he realizes that there can be a better way.

It is also a fact that it matters not to me.
 
I hope for success and peace, but this "history made" statement sounds an awful lot like past "history made" statements.

1992: North Korea signs an agreement that they will not build nuclear weapons or enrich uranium, including IAEA inspection oversight
1993: NK refuses IAEA inspections of two sites after the IAEA had strong evidence that NK was cheating on its commitments. NK withdraws from the Non-Proliferation Treaty, then un-withdraws.
1994: NK signs an agreement allowing IAEA inspectors access to nuclear sites, then denies access to a plutonium reprocessing plant. Later in the year, a deal is signed where NK will eliminate all of its nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees and normalization of political and economic ties.
2000: NK and SK sign a deal "agree[ing] to resolve" the question of reunification of the Korean Peninsula, and opening economic and cultural exchanges. The US drops some of its sanctions.
2002: NK acknowledges that it has a secret uranium enrichment program. NK tells the IAEA it is restarting its nuclear facilities for power generation only. In December, NK cuts all IAEA seals and disables monitoring equipment at its nuclear sites.
2003: NK withdraws from the Non-Proliferation Treaty and tells the US it has already built a nuclear weapon and is reprocessing spent fuel for more nuclear material. NK says they might get rid of their nuclear program but would expect "something substantial" in return.
2005: Uranium hexafluoride believed to be from NK is found in Libya. NK commits to "verifiable denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula" and to re-join the Non-Proliferation Treaty.
2006: NK conducts an underground nuclear weapons test.
2007: NK agrees to an action plan to implement the 2005 agreement, where NK will shut down its nuclear facilities in exchange for lifting economic sanctions. The IAEA confirms shutdown of NK's nuclear reactors.
2008: NK agrees to account for its plutonium-based weapons program and its proliferation activities. NK removes IAEA seals from its nuclear facilities and says it will start up the facilities. A new agreement is signed allowing IAEA inspection of NK's nuclear sites. The US removes NK from its list of state sponsors of terrorism.
2009: NK ejects US and IAEA inspectors from its nuclear sites. NK conducts another underground bomb test.
2010: NK tells Chinese officials that it is still committed to denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula. NK announces a new uranium enrichment facility, purportedly for peaceful power generation only.
2012: The US an NK sign an agreement to halt NK's missile and nuclear programs, including IAEA inspection, in exchange for food aid.
2013: NK announces that it will conduct another nuclear test and continue missile launches. NK conducts another underground nuclear test and restarts is nuclear reactor.
2016: NK tests a hydrogen bomb.

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron

Forgive me for being skeptical until we see results that last for more than a few months.

Also, what was agreed to was extremely fuzzy, sort of like "agreeing to begin planning the planning process" rather than concrete steps with timelines.

fWKjN8w.jpg
 
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