Sugar vs. APCP

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nickcodybarrett

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A lot of people are worried that I'm going to kill myself with my project I'm trying to get funded. I got a lot of backlash for it. I understand you're worried.

I have never worked with APCP before. All I've heard is that it can be dangerous if handled wrongly. What I have worked with is Kno3. I have built experimental rockets fueled by sugar before. I do know APCP is more efficient and all around better. My project is trying to reach 100k with an 8" motor, so think in forms of serious altitude. What I want to know is how much better is APCP than Sugar. If it's not that much of a difference then I'll go with sugar.

I do know the basics of composite propellent. [deleted by mods: formulas] I've seen how to carefully mix it in orderly fashion, but I'm not a pro on it.

Can a sugar engine of that size get me to 100k? This is a 15'x10" rocket that I'm building. And please don't go lecturing again on how this is going to kill me. I've gotten plenty of that. Just inform me on what would be the better choice. And tell me what the best way of mixing apcp would be.

Thanks
 
This thread is going to wind up in the research forum in 30 seconds or less, as well it should. Generally you can pick from the variables of predictable and stable, efficient, and cost effective. With sugar you're only picking the last one. I've seen lots of people make it work, but...
 
I mean if you meet the qualifications to join the restricted research forum where these discussions are allowed, you may find individuals willing to assist you.

The best place to begin is with a local mentor. Join a local club, gain experience building and flying smaller air frames, and demonstrate your willingness to be taught.
 
Worsaer said:
I mean if you meet the qualifications to join the restricted research forum where these discussions are allowed, you may find individuals willing to assist you.

The best place to begin is with a local mentor. Join a local club, gain experience building and flying smaller air frames, and demonstrate your willingness to be taught.
Click to expand...

ksaves2 said:
Ummmm, Listen to Mr. Riley. If you don't meet the requirements for the Research Forum, follow what Bill says and take your time. Kurt
Click to expand...

These really are the best way to get the answers you are looking for. I can assure you that the regulars here will not discuss this topic out in the open section of the forum.
 
not wanting to pile on, but u tube is not the safest way to learn ex. It's actually inherently more dangerous to make sugar motors then APCP if you follow the safety rules. (think melting temp vs autoignition temp)

Where are you? Perhaps one of will volunteer to mentor after meeting you at a local launch.

the ex section probably has answers to all of your questions and things you've not thought to ask.
McCreary's book is also good reading.
 
Have you seen the Sugar Shot to Space? https://www.facebook.com/Sugarshottospace/

At least one of the members of that team contributes here, mostly in the research section. I think they have been working on this project for over a decade. Their most recent large test used a 12" motor.

There's a lot to learn here. Take your time, and please be safe.
 
nickcodybarrett said:
A lot of people are worried that I'm going to kill myself with my project I'm trying to get funded. I got a lot of backlash for it. I understand you're worried.

I have never worked with APCP before. All I've heard is that it can be dangerous if handled wrongly. What I have worked with is Kno3. I have built experimental rockets fueled by sugar before. I do know APCP is more efficient and all around better. My project is trying to reach 100k with an 8" motor, so think in forms of serious altitude. What I want to know is how much better is APCP than Sugar. If it's not that much of a difference then I'll go with sugar.

I do know the basics of composite propellent. I've seen how to carefully mix it in orderly fashion, but I'm not a pro on it.

Can a sugar engine of that size get me to 100k? This is a 15'x10" rocket that I'm building. And please don't go lecturing again on how this is going to kill me. I've gotten plenty of that. Just inform me on what would be the better choice. And tell me what the best way of mixing apcp would be.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Nick Cody Barrett,
I saw the other thread you started. People were justifiably worried for several reasons. First, because it was very obvious that you didn’t have a clue what you were talking about; second, because you seemed extremely untruthful and third because you were seeking money through a go fund me page with some incredible claims.
When asked about grain geometry (which is at least as important as chemistry) your answers referred to chemistry. When asked about your claim on go fund me that you were a junior in high school but that you would be have a PhD next year you said you were currently in college. Your answers seemed closer to those of a habitual liar rather than someone familiar with the concepts of solid propellant rocket motors.
In that thread and this one people have made reasonable suggestions to you which you seem to completely ignore.
Yes, if you’re really planning to make motors people are worried about your welfare. But it goes way beyond that. You’re a danger to our hobby. Everything negative I’ve listed above reflects badly on rocketry, not because rocketry is inherently unsafe, but because you could adversely affect how the public views rocketry and its participants.
 
You might want learn Kinematic Equations, Rocket equations, do you have any idea how much propellant is needed to reach 100K feet? Buy John H. Wickman's book. Buy Professor Terry McCreary's book. Get at least your Tripoli Level Two. Then you can join the research forum. Then you can post and we or at least me will take you more serious. There is a cornucopia of knowledge on the internet. Watch on TED TV (you tube) the Tyranny of the rocket equation ([video=youtube;uWjdnvYok4I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWjdnvYok4I[/video])
Otherwise to me you seem like a keyboard rocket man.
 
Not so sound mean, but I honestly think it is better to ignore these people than to try to be helpful.
 
cbrarick said:
not wanting to pile on, but u tube is not the safest way to learn ex. It's actually inherently more dangerous to make sugar motors then APCP if you follow the safety rules. (think melting temp vs autoignition temp)

Where are you? Perhaps one of will volunteer to mentor after meeting you at a local launch.

the ex section probably has answers to all of your questions and things you've not thought to ask.
McCreary's book is also good reading.
Click to expand...

I've watched every single video on youtube about it. I watched the "beginners guid to American high power rocketry" when the guy actually makes a batch of it.
 
BDB said:
Have you seen the Sugar Shot to Space? https://www.facebook.com/Sugarshottospace/

At least one of the members of that team contributes here, mostly in the research section. I think they have been working on this project for over a decade. Their most recent large test used a 12" motor.

There's a lot to learn here. Take your time, and please be safe.
Click to expand...

Yes I've read up on it.
 
Steve Shannon said:
Nick Cody Barrett,
I saw the other thread you started. People were justifiably worried for several reasons. First, because it was very obvious that you didn’t have a clue what you were talking about; second, because you seemed extremely untruthful and third because you were seeking money through a go fund me page with some incredible claims.
When asked about grain geometry (which is at least as important as chemistry) your answers referred to chemistry. When asked about your claim on go fund me that you were a junior in high school but that you would be have a PhD next year you said you were currently in college. Your answers seemed closer to those of a habitual liar rather than someone familiar with the concepts of solid propellant rocket motors.
In that thread and this one people have made reasonable suggestions to you which you seem to completely ignore.
Yes, if you’re really planning to make motors people are worried about your welfare. But it goes way beyond that. You’re a danger to our hobby. Everything negative I’ve listed above reflects badly on rocketry, not because rocketry is inherently unsafe, but because you could adversely affect how the public views rocketry and its participants.
Click to expand...

Well I know you read that wrong, but I am really going to USC and working towards my Phd, believe me. I know you read that wrong but that is in fact the truth.

I have also built plenty of sugar rockets before. This isn't the first rocket I've ever built

I've been in pyrotechnics for years. I used to make fireworks and fuse them using things similar to these.
 
So you've ridden a 50cc scooter and it sure was fun and so now you want to ride a 1000cc motorcycle. When people that race motorcycles on the weekends ask you what fuel you'll be using, you answer "wet". Those same people then suggest you go to the track and talk to people that race on a regular basis and you don't want to because you watched all the races on youtube and you now know how to race. Can you see how this looks?
 
nickcodybarrett said:
Well I know you read that wrong, but I am really going to USC and working towards my Phd, believe me. I know you read that wrong but that is in fact the truth.

I have also built plenty of sugar rockets before. This isn't the first rocket I've ever built

I've been in pyrotechnics for years. I used to make fireworks and fuse them using things similar to these.
Click to expand...

Here’s what I just copied from your go fund me page:
My name is Nick Barrett. I am a future astronaut for the company SpaceX.

Right now I'm a junior in high school, but in 2019 I'm attending the University of Southern California to earn my doctorate in computer science while applying to intern at Spacex in Hawthorne, Ca.
Click to expand...

Please tell me how I read that wrong.
 
Last edited:
nickcodybarrett said:
Well I know you read that wrong, but I am really going to USC and working towards my Phd, believe me. I know you read that wrong but that is in fact the truth.

I have also built plenty of sugar rockets before. This isn't the first rocket I've ever built

I've been in pyrotechnics for years. I used to make fireworks and fuse them using things similar to these.
Click to expand...

Please do not confuse pyro with Research propellant making.

If you are truly serious about this join Tripoli, get your L2, and find a local club and a mentor. You can watch all the You Tube videos you want, but watching/mixing/asking questions will do more for you.
 
EVERYONE: Since the OP does not currently have access to the Research forum and isn't likely to do so anytime particularly soon, I edited out references to formulas where I found them so that he might be able to see, and read, the good advice that has been offered. In that light, everyone please keep the discussion here general so that it is suitable for this forum and not one that should be held in the Research forum.

NICK: Please appreciate that what several people have noted in this discussion, that there is much to learn before you even begin to think about mixing your own propellant. There is much that you don't know, so much, that you have no idea how much you don't know. And this is one of those cases, where what you don't know CAN hurt you in a big hurry. Instead, the advice of many has been to gain some experience with commercially available motors. Begin to learn some of the things that you don't know and learn enough to know what other things you might still need to know.

You may even discover that what you want to do can be accomplished faster and cheaper by using commercial motors and not taking the time, money, and effort to reinvent the wheel.
 
I’ll tell you how to mix APCP.

First, move the Ps to the end. Then slide the C over.

Youll get. ACPP. That’s properly mixed APCP.

I let my kids mox sugar. Usually with a bit of kool aid but I like to cut it a bit for them with water.
 
r66astro said:
I have an old microwave, I'll give a try. Should I notify the Hospital Burn Unit? Up my home owners? Or commit myself?
Click to expand...

The approved procedure is to dig a foxhole in a bare field. Set up a generator near the foxhole with a 100' extension cord to the microwave. Start the camera, set the time on the microwave, push start, run like hell to the foxhole, and dive in.

DavidMcCann said:
I’ll tell you how to mix APCP.

First, move the Ps to the end. Then slide the C over.

Youll get. ACPP. That’s properly mixed APCP.

I let my kids mox sugar. Usually with a bit of kool aid but I like to cut it a bit for them with water.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you start with AP. It's preferred to have gotten a 3 or better in AP Chemistry, but any AP (even German!) will do in a pinch. Then you add enough CP so that it's 1 caliber forward of the CG, 2 if you're going supersonic.
 
I've actually decided to do a 2 stage Sugar instead. Since y'all insist that I will kill myself, I've changed my mind. Besides, I have sugar propellant laying around, that way I don't have to buy anything new.

I have experience with Sugar and 2 stage rockets. No worries. If you approve, I still need funding, and I've fixed all the errors in the post that you called out.
 

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