2 years work experience as Mech Engineer or MS in engineering?

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Andrew_ASC

UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st
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So apparently companies outside of SpaceX do not care much about GPA for full time engineering position. SpaceX required engineers to work at certain states for certain years etc. Missed a NASA internship by 0.05 GPA worth $40k. 2.85 GPA slacker super senior here. I don't have even a year of related engineering experience graduating this summer. Orbital ATK basically says BSME+2years experience or Masters+BSME=foot in door. No GPA listed for full time engineering position at orbital with real missiles and sounding rockets or defense articles. I've already interned at a car factory and they've called multiple times. I had to decline a full time engineer at car company job by a not far enough academically after internship finished (no diploma) scenario last year. Basically Orbital could put up a sign saying got engineer diploma come play with missiles compared to some of the other somewhat harsher hiring requirements I've seen. NAS tulhoma takes my GPA for hypersonic wind tunnel internships. LOL.

Even if working on valves or fasteners for a small company I wonder if two years engineering experience translates to two years experience at Orbital. They were vague about what experience. Yeah I'm no Einstein, I might be a sarcastic forum troll jerk, I am humble in person, I might be in for a rather rude real life awakening of cobbling a life career path together, and I'm willing to put in the extra work experience or MS wise. If anybody has tips on what path to pick let me know. The military seemed open minded. I didn't file for academic forgiveness a month ago to wipe two F's which were replaced with better grades is why I missed the NASA internship. Not worried. There are plenty of other jobs. And most of these don't ask for a GPA unlike the internships. Anyways just had to rant... Because I suck... Seeking advice.
 
The majority of engineers do not have advanced engineering degrees. But, more often than not, the ones that do need them. You may be on the right track, but in general, people pursue advanced degrees because those degrees open doors to places they want to go or job they want to do. Advanced degrees will also close doors to other jobs because employers are afraid that they can't afford the salary required to hire someone with a masters (or a doctorate) degree. Figure out what it is you really, really want to do, then find out what degrees the people who do that have, or need, and then decide if you should get a masters degree, and what specialty you want in that degree. Remember that the farther you get, the more specific the degree gets. You don't just get a masters in engineering, you get a masters in signal processing, or something similarly specific. Doctorates get crazy specific. I'm seriously considering a doctorate, but so far I just can't find a specific subject that excites me enough pull the trigger on three or four years worth of work (and a lot of money). Worse, in my field, there's no real financial return on getting a doctorate unless I want to teach.
 
My advice is to get a job so you can gain experience in real world engineering. Concentrate and do well at that job. Don’t treat it the way you handle your presence on this forum. Stay focused. Ensure that your communications are concise, direct, and professional. Listen more than you speak. Learn by doing.

The single most important skill in my toolbox as an engineer was my ability to write clearly.
Once you’ve gotten some experience you’ll have a better idea whether you need a graduate degree. Your workplace might even pay for it.
 
My advice is to get a job so you can gain experience in real world engineering. Concentrate and do well at that job. Don’t treat it the way you handle your presence on this forum. Stay focused. Ensure that your communications are concise, direct, and professional. Listen more than you speak. Learn by doing.

The single most important skill in my toolbox as an engineer was my ability to write clearly.
Once you’ve gotten some experience you’ll have a better idea whether you need a graduate degree. Your workplace might even pay for it.

OP Andrew_ASC, please seriously consider Mr. Shannon's sound advice here! I am not an engineer, but I am a professional in the property and casualty insurance industry, 17 years and counting. Working hard, owning your job (and learning from occasional mistakes), professional communication (internal and external), and patience are key.

Never forget that respect, salary, title, and admiration are earned, not given... ;)
 
Things like GPA or work experience requirements are often used to thin the herd of applicants. Some places don’t really stick to why they advertise, but others do. I’d expect bigger companies & government entities to be pretty concrete in their requirements.

I recommend figuring out your long term goals then lay out the things you need to accomplish to meet those goals. Prioritize & order the list, then start marching through the steps to get where you want to be. Realize that things won’t go exactly as you plan and that you’ll need to adapt at pretty much every step. Your goals might change along the way too.

Hiring is one of the most important things that a company does. For engineering type jobs, demonstrated skills matter, but ability to learn quickly and a great attitude are huge. You can bet that anyone hiring for an important position will look at your online presence. If I saw an engineering applicant who was troll-like in forums, that would probably be enough for me to not even interview them.

When I started flying the F-15C, one of my instructors gave me some good advice: “think about what you’re going to say, say it to yourself, then shut the f**k up.” Listen & learn. Be a sponge. Be humble, approachable and credible. You’ll know when it’s time to speak up. Don’t make stuff up - if you don’t know the answer to something, just say “I don’t know” or “can you teach me more about that?” If you mess something up, admit it and work hard to learn from your mistakes. Also learn from others’ mistakes.

Like was said earlier, get a job and do well at it. Success begets success.
 
As a manager who occasionally hires engineers for several of the high tech companies I have worked at, what you have done is way more important than what you know, to me anyways. All engineering graduates basically know the same things. The GPA screen is mainly important to the HR departments in order to reduce their workloads.

Get a job that gives you the opportunity to accomplish something and solve real problems that you can talk about. Then the world will be your oyster.
 
I also agree with Mr. Steve's advice. When I graduated with a BS in AAE in 1970, the aerospace industry was collapsing along with an industry-wide recession. I interviewed a little bit on campus, but was demoralized with the results. I immediately went back to graduate school in Engineering Mechanics. My grades were always good, but I always had a hard time finding an engineering job. I worked in the nuclear power industry twice, being kicked out once and then finished working at Thiokol for 26 years. I've been retired for over 7 years. When I was laid off in the nuclear industry in 1984 for the second time, I sent out about 80 resumes with cover letters. (My previous employer Sargent & Lundy was kind enough to type up cover letters for my resume/letters.) These days I assume resumes/letters. etc. need to be sent out by social media or by internet interactions. In any case you need to send out a lot of resumes/letter, etc. I would say don't give up and others say you may have to take something less glamorous in order to get your foot in the door. In 1984 about the only thing I had going for awhile was maybe working in a laboratory in a light bulb factory. Then I got an interview invitation from Thiokol. Naturally, I ended up taking the Thiokol offer, but that was all I ever got. You probably will need to look nation-wide for a job offer, which you may already be doing. As a fellow engineer once told me finding a job is an act of God. I would say that my experience makes me agree with that statement.
 
Dad keeps recommending a military officer career aviation related. They may have engineering options. I hold a valid SPL medical. He was a military aviator for the Army and later he became an engineer. If I could be a test pilot maybe way later in life with the engineer degree that would be cool. I doubt I'd ever get there. But I need to focus on how to have engineering as a career because that bit of life remains a vast big unknown. What the heck do engineers do career wise? Dad only showed me some carrier thermo plots big as a desk and whined a bunch how helicopters were more fun to him. What do engineers do professionally? Design, excel, presentations, because literally outside of internships I have no idea. On internships it was learn the factory processes and statistical problem solve with lots of data and talking to people nicely asking what was broken.

I also liked manufacturing and other process options in engineering. I am really passionate about aviation though but never had the money to pursue that career and I may have to do things that do not always interest me at all in engineering to afford a career in aviation later. 3D modeling, fluid mech, compressible gas dynamics,and machine design were topics that interested me out of the mechanical path academically.
 
That's funny, because in a lot of segments, engineers are in short supply today. We'd recently be fishing for engineering candidates and had difficulty finding qualified applicants. Several of our sister-divisions are short-staffed for the same reason. It may depend on specifically what field you're looking for though; automotive is not for everyone.
 
The 2 years of work v master's degree thing isn't necessary equivalent. If your Master's isn't in the same field your job is, ie your masters is tailored to engine design and you get a job as a design engineer, your Master's is not worth as much. I graduated in 2004 with my BSAE and Earned my MSAE 2015 (Paid for by my company). Space X can afford to be extremely choosy in who they hire as they are a hot commodity, but they are also straight salary (so I've been told), so if you have to work 80 hours a week to get the job done that's life. GPA's may not be explicitly stated but HR department's will filter by them for example my manger in 2010 said even if he only looked at the 4.0's there were too many applicants to go through (Job market was pretty bad then). While you are right 2 years exp at a car plant might not be the 2 years Orbital is looking for, there are other options out there. The big 3 still do space (Lockheed, Boeing, and Northrup) they also have missile divisions (depending if working on a go boom at the end system present ethical issues for you). Get someone to help you polish your resume and cover letter. Also be sure to include any clubs or organizations you were in, these can make great talking points once you get to the interview. Also look at small and medium sized companies, you tend to get to "wear more hats" at those then at the big boys, but they maybe less financially stable / not as good benefits. Also being in TN there are lots of places closer in than Utah and SoCal. If you do decide to go for a Master's after full employment I recommend doing it before kids come along, I know that is likely far off your radar but they do make it more challenging.
 
“What the heck to engineers do?”

This is precisely why I never recommend people take any degree which doesn’t include at least 2 years of internship. The real world has nothing to do with school and graduating with 2 years of work experience is absolutely invaluable. Doing a handful of different jobs for a few months in your chosen field exposes you early to the possibilities - and the possibilities are endless.

I have friends with engineering degrees that are everything from bankers to aircraft designers to pipeline inspectors to stay at home dads. I’ve done everything from general cad work to building assembly lines to product marketing and management to designing phones. And I hated all of it. It mostly involved lots of paperwork. Now I write software because I personally get to make something - with my own hands... And they pay me twice as much... And I’m mostly irreplaceable. And it’s fun.

An engineering degree really only teaches you how to think. Learning actual skills which you can translate into fulfilling employment takes years and years and years or hard work, sacrifice, failing, succeeding and listening and leaning from people who’ve already done it.
 
heed a lot of the advice given above, and especially the replies / advice you've garnered in other threads. Change your attitudes as well.

From what I've seen, most Engs get out of school, then get a job, then eventually go back. They either take the odd course, that's pertinent to their career, or go to gain their masters.

The school taught you how to think. That's all. Maybe to apply yourself in a unique (but very small) way. Experience comes from doing. Take any job you can get. Expect to do drawing corrections, to figure out if one bolt out of an assembly can be removed, to reduce the parts count in the overall assembly. Expect to get dirty. Expect to test 15 of the widgets they produce. Daily. Prove yourself, and you'll move up. DON"T expect to design the new cooling fan, or to derive the safety factor margin for ... Or anything else. right from the start, in 6 months.. You are a Jr. engineer.

Don't expect a job in your chosen path. You want to design missiles & rockets. You might end up designing ladders or gas filters.. Regard everything as a challenge, a problem to solve. It may not be grandiose or "cool" or "space age high tech" but it's a job and a challenge. Look at bottle capping machines (screw on tops, like mustard bottles) a lot goes into them. No one gives them a 2nd look, but when they break down... or don't last.. Look at Caterpillar. Some pretty neat machines come from them.. just to move dirt..

I, today, mainly manage BOMs (Bills of Materials) and help manage an ERP system. This, despite being a mech designer (which I much prefer!!). But I'm good at organizing manufactured sub-systems / sub assemblies & production flow. Its a skill set not everyone has, and the company sees it, and make use of me in that capacity. What do I design & maintain? Ovens. Ovens to cook 32 chickens at a time.. (If you shop at Costco, I/we thank you!!! :D :D ) Did I even think I would do something like this? No.

Of course, I'm, also reminded of a long ago friend, who gained a bit of an attitude, and he would go thru jobs pretty quickly. It seemed he would start a job, then quickly start finding all the things (he thought) wrong that they were doing. He'd then start to complain about it, to anyone; why things were done this way.. That the last place he was at, they did things that way. That the bosses & such dunno what they're doing. The company is probably gonna fold in a year.. etc etc etc.. Of course, he knew better, and got eventually bitter about it. He was (always) soon asked to leave.
Don't be that guy. (although from what I've seen of you here, I believe you are.)
 
“What the heck to engineers do?”

This is precisely why I never recommend people take any degree which doesn’t include at least 2 years of internship. The real world has nothing to do with school and graduating with 2 years of work experience is absolutely invaluable. Doing a handful of different jobs for a few months in your chosen field exposes you early to the possibilities - and the possibilities are endless.

I have friends with engineering degrees that are everything from bankers to aircraft designers to pipeline inspectors to stay at home dads. I’ve done everything from general cad work to building assembly lines to product marketing and management to designing phones. And I hated all of it. It mostly involved lots of paperwork. Now I write software because I personally get to make something - with my own hands... And they pay me twice as much... And I’m mostly irreplaceable. And it’s fun.

An engineering degree really only teaches you how to think. Learning actual skills which you can translate into fulfilling employment takes years and years and years or hard work, sacrifice, failing, succeeding and listening and leaning from people who’ve already done it.

I wanted to be a pilot. They didn't fund it with scholarship degree coverage like STEM path was. So one college said per semester $30k plus fuel costs, then the FAA upped an hour requirement to 1200 hours. Outside of college training costs were stiff. Dad got laid off for five years with flying corporate jets and nearly cracked mentally. We were eating fish out of farm fish pond then. People were in debt $200k to start at $27k at regionals for ten years. Some put in longer and a hiring freeze caused stagnation in career and they never became captains or transferred aircraft. And when a commercial pilot gets laid off you face instantly within six months biannual training time at CAE in type aircraft that the company usually covered is now a $50 grand "F--- You", unexpected to someone who just lost a job in their career path. So basically the logbook experience stays but you are no longer current to earn a living. Chaos all around 07-08. Mom said be an engineer or a doctor. I stated my personal choice but that didn't matter worth a damn to them. Seven years later here I am. Never changed majors. Failed a bunch of hard sh*t that just got harder and kept going. Mom started in education and wound up doing management since the 80's and she complains some hiring requirements seem absurd. Mom resented any tradecraft like plumbing which to be honest I would be a richer person today if I had started that after high school.
 
Five pieces of advice that haven't been covered in the excellent advice above:

1) Look for "new College Grad" or similar in job descriptions at companies you want to work for. For example, Orbital ATK has this job posting which doesn't require a Master's or experience: https://jobs.orbitalatk.com/jobs/KT20171611-42393?lang=en-us It does recommend a GPA over 3.0 so if you're still at 2.85, you'll need to write a killer cover letter and resume.

2) Get help from your university in writing your resume and cover letter. As long as you have a couple of weeks, the career center on campus that can help you. They can probably do mock interviews as well. These places exist solely to help you get a job and don't get nearly the amount of use from students that they should. Ask their advice and take it.

3) When I was hiring people, I preferred people who had fallen and gotten up again (eg 2 F's replaced with better grades) than people who had never fallen. Have a good answer to what happened with those grades and what you learned from it. I don't know what those classes were, but something like "I didn't realize until those classes that my heart wasn't in [XXX field], so I switched to engineering which I love" would be good. If those classes were in your major, it's a harder question to answer.

4) Be completely positive about past work experience. Don't talk about uncovering sabotage on the factory floor at your car manufacturer internship. Talk about learning how important it is to integrate the engineering with what is happening and is possible on the factory floor. It's basically the same story, but the latter one is far more likely to get you hired. At the interview, they'll ask you about challenges in your internship. Again, you'll want to have a good story about something that you didn't understand but now you do, or a problem that you solved working with other people.

5) Have an answer for every company about why you want to work there that is specific to the company and if possible, the department you are applying to. For the Orbital ATK job, talking about wanting to support human exploration to the Moon and by working on SLS would be a good answer if you're applying to that division. At my last interview, I totally blew that question because I hadn't prepared for it.
 
My advice is to get a job so you can gain experience in real world engineering. Concentrate and do well at that job. Don’t treat it the way you handle your presence on this forum. Stay focused. Ensure that your communications are concise, direct, and professional. Listen more than you speak. Learn by doing.

The single most important skill in my toolbox as an engineer was my ability to write clearly.
Once you’ve gotten some experience you’ll have a better idea whether you need a graduate degree. Your workplace might even pay for it.

Excellent advice. I have also mentioned the writing skills before. An average engineer who communicates well is far better off than most really good engineers who can't explain anything. You will be dealing with a lot of non-technical people and you better know how to explain complex situations quickly and in simple terms.

Working for small companies is generally more fun than really big companies. After the Air Force I worked for a company with 800 people. It was challenging, but ten times better than after we got bought by a Fortune 100 company with 50,000 people around the world. The pay got a lot better after we got bought out, but work was drudgery at the end.

I am an engineer, but I worked with tech writers, the repair department, accountants, warehouse managers, warehouse shipping and receiving, computer programmers, call center operators, customers from around the world, etc. I learned a tremendous amount and met a lot of good people. What we did was appreciated because it had a direct impact on getting product to the customer and making them happy.

At the end (Fortune 100 company), I did one thing and we were always getting yelled at by customers and management because money was king and customers existed to get money from them. Management said ship it regardless whether it was ready or not and then you got in trouble because was upset that it wasn't finished.

Look for a task that people at your workplace find repulsive (but important) and get good at it. I had two jobs like that and they were fun, easy and nobody else wanted to do them. People were afraid of the jobs because they didn't understand them. Once I figured them out they were really easy and impressed a lot of people that I knew how to do these "awful" jobs.

Help people in other departments if you can. I helped people in shipping and receiving with a number of things and word got back to management how nice and helpful I was. It started with something that really was part of my job, but they asked for help with other stuff and I did a few small things that didn't take me long to do and really helped them out. You will learn a tremendous amount about a business by working with other departments and that alone will make you far more valuable than an engineer who sits at a computer all day designing widgets.

Be nice to EVERYBODY; from the CEO to the lowest paid person at the company. Be nice to receptionists, cleaning people and all the other people whose jobs may not seem important to you. Trust me, those jobs are important or they wouldn't exist in this day and age. And their jobs are hard too.

And a lot of engineers don't do engineering. I never designed anything, but I used my skills to do a number of really interesting jobs.
 
Luckily, I live in a country where education is valued and partially state funded. I took the degree of my choice from on of the best schools in the world and graduated with $0 in debt. I funded everything with earnings from my internships.... And by eating a lot of ramen noodles..

My “socialist” overlords demanded nothing in return other than the usual percentage of all my future earnings, which is working out significantly in their favour in the long run... Fair trade though.

Nothing wrong with the trades either! The most important thing is to do something you love doing not what somebody else wants you to do. I know lots of happy carpenters and mechanics. Heck, did it myself for a couple of years but the physical labour takes its toll.

You can start a new career any time. I’m on number 4 or 5... I’ve lost count.
 
Dad keeps recommending a military officer career aviation related. ...

That is really not a bad idea. I live and work in the Washington, D.C. area, and I work with a lot of military and ex-military folks. Once you are in the military, seek out a top secret security clearance. When you leave the military, you can get a contractor job with NSA, CIA, NRO, etc. Have clearance, will work.
 
And remember that everything you have posted here on TRF can come back to bite you in the butt, companies are more and more checking out social media from potential employees, and current employees. My company has a Code of Conduct, if you are in violation of it onnor off the job it can be grounds for discipline up to and including termination.
 
Are you allowed to elaborate on this process for Army, Navy, or Air Force officers?

Every branch of the military has an intelligence division. I was never military, so I can't speak first hand. But I would assume that while you are in officer traning (ROTC, etc.), you would need to express an interest in intelligence. See where it goes.
 
Sometimes the advanced degree you need is a MBA or Master's in Organizational Management. It all depends on the kind of job you end up doing. After 5 years, most people don't end up doing what they got their degree in anyway, even in technical fields.
 
Oh my lord... I met one test pilot named Gerry Ward at FedEx, he flew the DC-10 WASP and told me how they zapped hubble for a missile defense agency. NASA was unaware of that mission or that the plane read write data to telescope op amp. And the WASP is a known platform. I had simply asked a bunch of random people for test pilot informational interviews. Somebody's wife at a event said here you have to talk to my husband. Dude started out as a cop after having an engineering diploma in electrical engineering then went Airforce. He moaned when I asked if he liked RLC circuits.
 
Are you allowed to elaborate on this process for Army, Navy, or Air Force officers?

Depends on the job you are going to do in the service. They do a background check that is more rigorous the higher the clearance.

[video=youtube;go6JtLUMawQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go6JtLUMawQ[/video] for a navy guy talking about the process.
 
Sometimes the advanced degree you need is a MBA or Master's in Organizational Management. It all depends on the kind of job you end up doing. After 5 years, most people don't end up doing what they got their degree in anyway, even in technical fields.
That's the truth. It took me about 10 years to circle back into the industry of my education. Not in the capacity I planned but I am way better off for it and I am having more fun than I would otherwise.

Andrew, be patient with life choices. They never work by your schedule. You tend to wind up where you belong, not necessarily where you want to be. Despite being abrasive here, I think most people would still wish you the best of luck.
 
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