Will you get Level X?

dr wogz said:

A large number of us rocketeers are in our 50s & 70s.. Are we, then, also dorks?! And should get out of the hobby?!

-proud 50+ rocket dork

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You're a pioneer of hobby rockets, an experienced still breathing nerd not a dork. Your experienced is valued. You are not old, you are experienced. Takes a tough guy to go walk a few miles and bust a few Mach while playing with spacecraft fueled models telling us young dudes how it was done back in the day. If it weren't for the older people none of us younger people would know this hobby existed. There's not enough NAR and TRA members as it is.

dr wogz said:

Uh, I have seen that..

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You seen any in cosmonaut gear? I would freaking laugh.

Train shops still open around the country. Dozens of magazines. Thriving membership.

Yea. Trains are for dorks.

There's also a feature called "multi-quote"...

DavidMcCann said:

Train shops still open around the country. Dozens of magazines. Thriving membership.

Yea. Trains are for dorks.

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I am sorry I brought it up. I forgot the first rule of model train layouts.

https://www.xkcd.com/878/

And seriously Andrew, I was looking for some validation and your graphomania totally derailed my attempt to get strangers on the internet to tweak my self-esteem by liking my "lost rocket" merit badge.

Bat-mite said:

And will be here long after the BATFE shuts down rocketry....

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Really so the ATF is going to ban sugar and stump remover too? They would start a war if they tried to ban sugar from Americans. There will always be rockets, but rockets may not be APCP forever. We're not banoholic Europe.

The "Lost Rocket Merit Badge" rocked!

Honestly, I don't have room for a model train layout, but totally "get" the hobby. The craftsmanship and attention to detail are amazing. It's very similar to how the best of the scale modelers in our hobby approach their competitions.

Everyone has their "geek" and to any outsider it seems weird or wonderful depending on your point of view. I "get" why people dress up like superheroes and attend conventions (Cosplay) but I don't "get" why people dress up in medieval costumes (SFCA). But is one really that different from the other? Same thing with rockets and trains. Both involve models of much larger things and give us a chance to emulate our heroes.


One aspect of rocketry that I have not enjoyed since returning to the hobby is the "Hold my beer--watch this!" aspect, where some flyers seem to be motivated only by the use of explosives and larger, and larger motors. Sugar and stump remover? We need to focus on keeping the hobby safe, enjoyable, and with minimal regulation. Unsafe behavior with rockets threatens the hobby for all of us and should be frowned upon.

Dork:
Slang. a silly, out-of-touch person who tends to look odd or behave ridiculously around others; a social misfit

Nerd:
Noun, slang
1. a person considered to be socially awkward, boring, unstylish, etc.
2. an intelligent but single-minded person obsessed with a non-social hobby or pursuit

Geek:
Noun
1. a digital-technology expert or enthusiast (a term of pride as self-reference, but often used disparagingly by others).
2. a person who has excessive enthusiasm for and some expertise about a specialized subject or activity
3. a peculiar person, especially one who is perceived to be overly intellectual, unfashionable, or socially awkward.


I think the proper term in most of these cases is "Nerd" or "geek"..

Dude you would love Utah where NAR had cardboard boxes legit fly on L motors. Flyer said he mind simmed it. I asked the guy if he had an open rocket. Guy says mind sim. That comment was enough to send me sprinting to the nearest porta potty. RSO cleared it and it flew. Rocket dorks don't yell hold my beer. They send a cardboard box, a trash can, or a porta potty high enough to scare the sh*t outta folks. Amazingly it recovered. Level negative X right there.

The great thing about being 56 is that you get to the point where you don't care much if people understand your interests. For the sake of the woman I love, I try to keep my "geek" in the garage, talk to her about it sparingly (no, your wife really doesn't care about the newly discovered paint scheme for the Honest John rocket flown only twice during test flights at White Sands in 1953--no matter what she says.), and act like a normal person most of the time.

During launches, or in the company of only rocketeers, I can fully let my hair down and be a rocket geek, dork, nerd.

Same thing with ham radio. It's in the garage, and I try not to bore her with explaining the strength of the latest tropo opening. She really doesn't care--though she is patient and always smiles as she feigns interest.

Happy wife, happy life.

Halte Mein Bier, ihr Seht euch das an. Von Braun muttered launching a piano before the first V2 was put in space.

lowga said:

One aspect of rocketry that I have not enjoyed since returning to the hobby is the "Hold my beer--watch this!" aspect, where some flyers seem to be motivated only by the use of explosives and larger, and larger motors. Sugar and stump remover? We need to focus on keeping the hobby safe, enjoyable, and with minimal regulation. Unsafe behavior with rockets threatens the hobby for all of us and should be frowned upon.

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Can't agree more. "Make tube fly with Fire!" can hopefully be combatted by building relationships and investing in the flier's development. But deliberate and repeated unsafety will have to be dealt with (or shipped off to FAR where no holds are barred lol)

Are sugar/stump powder not one of the Tripoli approved research propellants? That's interesting (never looked at the list)

dr wogz said:

Dork:
Slang. a silly, out-of-touch person who tends to look odd or behave ridiculously around others; a social misfit

Nerd:
Noun, slang
1. a person considered to be socially awkward, boring, unstylish, etc.
2. an intelligent but single-minded person obsessed with a non-social hobby or pursuit

Geek:
Noun
1. a digital-technology expert or enthusiast (a term of pride as self-reference, but often used disparagingly by others).
2. a person who has excessive enthusiasm for and some expertise about a specialized subject or activity
3. a peculiar person, especially one who is perceived to be overly intellectual, unfashionable, or socially awkward.


I think the proper term in most of these cases is "Nerd" or "geek"..

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Unashamed nerd here, although pretty bad at the single-minded part. I like to diversify and rotate through my obsessions.

dr wogz said:

Dork:
Slang. a silly, out-of-touch person who tends to look odd or behave ridiculously around others; a social misfit

Nerd:
Noun, slang
1. a person considered to be socially awkward, boring, unstylish, etc.
2. an intelligent but single-minded person obsessed with a non-social hobby or pursuit

Geek:
Noun
1. a digital-technology expert or enthusiast (a term of pride as self-reference, but often used disparagingly by others).
2. a person who has excessive enthusiasm for and some expertise about a specialized subject or activity
3. a peculiar person, especially one who is perceived to be overly intellectual, unfashionable, or socially awkward.


I think the proper term in most of these cases is "Nerd" or "geek"..

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I remember when a geek was a drunk who bit the heads off of chickens at a carnival, and dork was another name for the male member. My how things change.

Andrew_ASC said:

Really so the ATF is going to ban sugar and stump remover too? They would start a war if they tried to ban sugar from Americans. There will always be rockets, but rockets may not be APCP forever. We're not banoholic Europe.

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The ATF will not bann rocketry; however, they could make it awfully difficult for us by placing excessive controls on the materials we use. In any case, NAR and TRA had to go to court to get APCP deregulated. Did the model train hobby ever have go to court to get, well, anything deregulated?

Bat-mite said:

The ATF will not bann rocketry; however, they could make it awfully difficult for us by placing excessive controls on the materials we use. In any case, NAR and TRA had to go to court to get APCP deregulated. Did the model train hobby ever have go to court to get, well, anything deregulated?

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There was a local legal battle with the model rail road clubs and a luncheon business in Collierville wanting to put a full scale dinner car owned by that city on a real rail track owned by CSX for exaggerated lunch prices. I was a kid at the time but it became a "big" deal for a train club. It took about a decade for approval. This city has sued northfolk southern for blockading the city with a coal train breakdown that took several days to "fix". The coal train was so long that it blocked two or more road crossings. It took NS several days to send more engines to move the damaged train. Kinda like dropping a micro iron and steel curtain across the city logistics. Locals panic. They ended up paying CSX rather stiffly to get the city dinner car rolling. CSX wasn't best buds with the city that sued a rail operator, lol. I don't have any links. Just what I remember from being a kid hearing adults whine. At the national events no human passengers for fees were allowed on larger scale steam locomotives because of risk of boiler explosion. Very few towns approved the larger scale trains. Some towns liked calling it hazardous and stuff. The rural piss ant towns of Tennessee, Columbia oddly, cash strapped retirement pits would allow this activity much like a county fair event. But hey Columbia is a town with a mule day. Go figure. The other larger towns did not want it at any costs. The steam locos might aswell been balls L-3 TRA research flights; crew only. Only the diesel and lawn motor petrol ones could pull paying passengers around rather large scale tracks to limit risks. Somebody sued was what was said about the steam locos, but they used to pull people too. Boiler explosion. Never was real big into trains. They had problems but nothing as big as the ATF crap rocketry had to fight. For them it seems local cities vs rail road vs modeler wants full scale train car rolling service restoring wanted.

Nothing like the ATF fight.

Andrew_ASC said:

There was a local legal battle with the model rail road clubs and a luncheon business in Collierville wanting to put a full scale dinner car owned by that city on a real rail track owned by CSX for exaggerated lunch prices. I was a kid at the time but it became a "big" deal for a train club. It took about a decade for approval. This city has sued northfolk southern for blockading the city with a coal train breakdown that took several days to "fix". The coal train was so long that it blocked two or more road crossings. It took NS several days to send more engines to move the damaged train. Kinda like dropping a micro iron and steel curtain across the city logistics. Locals panic. They ended up paying CSX rather stiffly to get the city dinner car rolling. CSX wasn't best buds with the city that sued a rail operator, lol. I don't have any links. Just what I remember from being a kid hearing adults whine. At the national events no human passengers for fees were allowed on larger scale steam locomotives because of risk of boiler explosion. Very few towns approved the larger scale trains. Some towns liked calling it hazardous and stuff. The steam locos might aswell been balls L-3 TRA research flights crew only. Only the diesel and lawn motor petrol ones could pull paying passengers around rather large scale tracks to limit risks. Somebody sued was what was said about the steam locos, but they used to pull people too. Boiler explosion. Never was real big into trains. They had problems but nothing as big as the ATF crap rocketry had to fight. For them it seems local cities vs rail road vs modeler wants full scale train car rolling service restoring wanted.

Nothing like the ATF fight.

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I wasn't really thinking about full scale

The only thing keeping me from building a layout is money. I'd be all over a HoN3 logging layout if I could.

for me it's space..

Sadly, Model Railroader is the only hobby magazine I buy (off the shelf). It's a decent read with proper "how to" articles, and minimal ads. I get Sport rocketry too, but it's mailed.

I miss RCM, and gave up on MAN - tooooo many ads & pictures (and ARFs). Fly RC went downhill fast too..

Magazines ain't cheap anymore..

As far as the space goes, that's not a concern. My interest have always been shelf switching layouts so I just need about 12" deep of a single wall in any room and I'm good. Cost is the biggie. Blackstone narrow gauge motive runs about $450 a pop and DCC isn't cheap no matter what option you go with. I figured 10 or so Shinohara code 55 switches and some track, a couple cars and a single unit would set you back a good grand. Right now I have other hobbies wanting that money but the trains are always looming in the back ground. I guess I am just a dork. That's the good thing about being middle age and married, I can wear Crocs and black socks, play with model trains and tie flies, eat ice cream for breakfast and not feel ashamed for any of it.

I still want to check off control line airplanes and bike touring too. Need to get some panniers for my Salsa and a decent tarp and bug net, maybe later this summer.

RCM was a special thing. I remember one of the best birthday presents I ever got as a kid. It was a shirt box with a bunch of tissue paper in it and a single issue or RCM. Attached was a handwritten note from my dad, "hope you like it...12 more are coming in the mail". I used to rush home from school and check the mail box everyday. When it finally arrived, I laid in the floor and read every page before I finally lifted my head up. Did that for a good 4-5 years or so. Missed those days.

I also really enjoyed US Boat and Ship Modeler but it too went away.

Now like you the only model magazine I buy is Model Trains or some of the specialty narrow gauge stuff...again dork.

lowga said:

The great thing about being 56 is that you get to the point where you don't care much if people understand your interests. For the sake of the woman I love, I try to keep my "geek" in the garage, talk to her about it sparingly (no, your wife really doesn't care about the newly discovered paint scheme for the Honest John rocket flown only twice during test flights at White Sands in 1953--no matter what she says.), and act like a normal person most of the time.

During launches, or in the company of only rocketeers, I can fully let my hair down and be a rocket geek, dork, nerd.

Same thing with ham radio. It's in the garage, and I try not to bore her with explaining the strength of the latest tropo opening. She really doesn't care--though she is patient and always smiles as she feigns interest.

Happy wife, happy life.

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You sir just won the internet for today.

Andrew_ASC said:

Anyways I hope TTU places better at SEDS. Do me a favor where I failed and kick Mizzou's butt. The more SEDS awards the Tennesseans take from SEDS, the better.

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SEDS at Tennessee Tech is not participating in any more SEDS competitions. We're moving on to IREC and other bigger fish. We'll fly the SEDS banner to keep organized, but USRC made it pretty clear that the organization needs a serious overhaul in regards to ethics and safety.

Andrew, I realize that a vast majority of what you say is really meant without any kind of malice or ill-will, but I think you need to slow down and think about how people are going to interpret what you say. It's an issue of common courtesy. Most of us will filter what we say very carefully before letting loose. Each of us realizes that what we say is going to have an impact on the people around us, and as adults we try to make sure we aren't "ruffling feathers". This isn't just out of courtesy, what we say CAN come back to bite us in the a**.

Case and point:
A member of this forum pulled off a rather impressive launch, recently. The kind of head-turning feat that made me excited when he told me he was willing to speak here at tech. I never called him back though... because his behavior here on the forums showed a pretty blatant disregard for "possible misinterpretation". I'm not going to invite someone to speak when I see a serious lack of common courtesy in their interactions with others.

TLDR: If you don't put effort into not sounding like a jerk... you're a jerk by default. It's a blatant disregard for common social graces.

edit: Trains kick ass. Do you have any clue how much automation and programming goes into those things now?

Andrew_ASC said:

model train dorks ... no sane person ... laugh and cry when friends crashed ... blah decades ... talk train stories ... Old Fart ....

I DON'T UNDERSTAND TRAINS AND THEY'RE DUMB .

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The TMRC Signals and Power Subcommittee cares not one fig for your lack of understanding.

That's a pretty good swath of destruction behind Andrew_ASC all in one thread. To summarize:

He's insulted
Old guys
Model railroaders
People who wear cord suspenders
People who wear space suits and helmets
People who would wear a Cosmonaut suit (thus representing the ONLY space program currently able to get humans including Americans into space)
People who don't like being referred to as dorks or nerds

In addition he showed lack of knowledge of Odd Rocs (they scare him enough to run away) and the difference between a model railroad and an actual railroad.

In another thread he's demonstrated a lack of knowledge of HPR construction and gave bad advice that had to be corrected. There were multiple Level 3's and the kit manufacturer explaining and he still didn't get it. https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?145657-SAAB-RB05A-98

That's a big week for ASC and it's only Wednesday.

On the upside, he nailed the hypothetical L1 test. So there's that.

Don't forget his grammar.

I'm starting on my lvl1 build, but intending to work my way up through the levels as I can. I live 1.5hrs from the nearest launch site, and at the very best may make a launch a month, probably a launch every couple of months is more realistic.

I have two goals in rocketry: I like to build, and would like to build mostly H and I motors to make videos, and have the pleasure of building. I also wish to make the rare high altitude flight on bigger lvl3 rockets, and enjoy the challenges associated with building them.

My only real desire to move up through lvl1 and then 2 quickly, is to expand what I can and cannot build for, and enjoy that aspect of. I'm not sure what the odds of me fitting in well with the model rocket "community" are, I'm definitely not the......conventional model rocket builder. I sincerely hope it does not end up like the model aircraft community, which I do not feel welcome to be involved in at all.

KAW2008 said:

My only real desire to move up through lvl1 and then 2 quickly, is to expand what I can and cannot build for, and enjoy that aspect of. I'm not sure what the odds of me fitting in well with the model rocket "community" are, I'm definitely not the......conventional model rocket builder. I sincerely hope it does not end up like the model aircraft community, which I do not feel welcome to be involved in at all.

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If you're ever in NEOK you're welcome at our launches as long as you're mostly harmless :-D

pendrin2020 said:

Don't forget his grammar.

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Have fun at IREC. Don't break the competition altimeter again. I want to see you guys at top third or better at IREC. You guys deserve that at least and have potential to get there as long as altimeters aren't damaged. Seriously your build skills were there.

DavidMcCann said:

Requiring L2 is basically a certification process. I think the L2 test is slightly dated, but thats easy to fix. I'd toss all hybrid questions to be honest.

An L1 test wouldn't be a terrible idea, mostly focusing on how to time delays, CG/CP (which is currently tested for L1), and recovery theory/safety.

I disagree with an electronic requirement for L2. This is where the idea of merit badges comes in. Do we need a cert process for all aspects of rocketry? An argument can be made both ways. On one hand, that's slightly obnoxious. On the other, clustering, staging, electronics, etc all have their own issues and skills to learn.

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My club has a series of local “LPR certificates” you can get on your way to L1 that requires you to know, build and fly a variety of things like:
- Single stage and two stage
- two different recovery methods other than parachute.
- CG/CP markings
- thrust / weight ratios
- rail/rod exit velocities
- basic computer simming
- different altitude goals
- different motors (a-d)
- different size tubes ( MD, near MD)
- a scratch build
- fly an altimeter
- fly a payload
- safely eject something other than a recovery device
- something with a transition
- something with two transitions
- etc.

Nothing but a purdy certificate from the club at the end (there are three levels) but it’s designed as a scaffold for those that want to learn and want guidance on where to aim.

I didn’t do the actual certificate(s) but went through through most of the different requirements in my own time (the ones that interested me). It helped me extend beyond kits and basic 3/4 fnc birds.

In fact it’s the reason I scratch built an LPR two stage with two transitions and two recovery methods (streamer for booster and chute for sustainer) as I wanted to see if I could challenge myself to tick lots of boxes at once...


What’s my point?

I think that levels < 1 can be handled at the club level very well...

I remember when 'Ethics' were taught in Eng school...

I guess that got replaced by the token 'AutoCAD' or 'Solidworks' course.. "Hey, look at me, I took an AutoCAD course, so I can make all the design & assembly dwgs!! ASME 14... who needs that!"

(And yes, I've dealt with that in my career... more than once..)

---------------------------

back on subject, I expect to be at L2 for a while now.. my big thing for this year will be dual deploy, and gaining trust in my altimeter!

I skipped some responses so not sure if anyone mentioned but Tripoli does have the Mentor test - that is a decent L1 test of sorts, my son took it at Airfest and at 13 yrs old he learned a lot studying for that. Wouldn’t be bad move to look at that as an L1 test or consider Tripoli Mentor prior to L1.

dr wogz said:

I remember when 'Ethics' were taught in Eng school...

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If it helps, my university required Engineering Ethics. It can't have changed to much since I graduated