Will you get Level X?

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I would also like to see a certification process for RSOs. This certification should be limited to a specific term where the RSO candidate has to refresh and demonstrate their knowledge of any rule changes to recertify, kind of like CPR training.

Requiring L2 is basically a certification process. I think the L2 test is slightly dated, but thats easy to fix. I'd toss all hybrid questions to be honest.

An L1 test wouldn't be a terrible idea, mostly focusing on how to time delays, CG/CP (which is currently tested for L1), and recovery theory/safety.

I disagree with an electronic requirement for L2. This is where the idea of merit badges comes in. Do we need a cert process for all aspects of rocketry? An argument can be made both ways. On one hand, that's slightly obnoxious. On the other, clustering, staging, electronics, etc all have their own issues and skills to learn.
 
As long as they start the merits in own time and money and effort (not required) after they get a cert they could gradually learn. It's common sense to use lesser motors when doing the merits on own dollar. I've already designed staged MD supersonic L-1 complex. I would rather start a clustered L-1 project than try that same project past L-2 cert on L-2 motors with no prior cluster experience. They don't have to require whatnot but people need to use judgement about something.

Argh. These guys worry about the level process. Man these student projects grind my gears, they tell you NO EXPERIENCE and no mentors want or are able always and they then push for performance goals by competition design specs beyond your experience. You wouldn't learn to fly a plane in an F/A-18 first flight. They start you in slow crap Cessna. Yet the competitions start you at the end of performance spectrum by point system logic. And I found out the hard way all the hobbyists with more experience were clearly right. Literally those competitions are the danger ones regardless of L number... These competitions need to require mentors my two dumb cents. SEDS and IREC crap I'll complain more of SEDS. You start at complex multistage without a clue. Or much oversight. We were teaching our prof to use open rocket the day before his cert. There's a reason 68 teams did not finish, they didn't have a clue and likely thought it was dangerous. The competitions encourage max performance MD by altitude scoring. Experienced or not.

I was mad as h*** on paper scoring only a crumpled flaming ball of what used to be an airframe with an altimeter beeping out 14,000ft plus beats doing everything safe at SEDS and recovering a two stage intact airframe. SEDS only cares about altitude bonuses, and the tech reports. The other points matter but stage recovery was five points versus continuously scoring for every additional 300ft above 3,000ft no top limit on points or alt until it hits the max limit. SEDS lets you use TRA research options without the experience as long as you follow regs. ESRA or whatnot claims the regs stiffle invention and my personal opinion is they do not want RSO's grounding unsafe rockets. At SEDS; I had the freedom to innovate an entire airframe or even ask about motor mods, Several teams mixed motors with an L-2 for example which was worth five points, Hybrids were allowed, Not ramjets or liquids, and Literally we had the freedom to do anything allowed in regulated hobby rocketry as long as we followed the rules which in my opinion is plenty given the whole no experience and no mentor starting pace.
 
As long as they start the merits in own time and money and effort (not required) after they get a cert they could gradually learn. It's common sense to use lesser motors when doing the merits on own dollar. I've already designed staged MD supersonic L-1 complex. I would rather start a clustered L-1 project than try that same project past L-2 cert on L-2 motors with no prior cluster experience. They don't have to require whatnot but people need to use judgement about something.

Argh. These guys worry about the level process. Man these student projects grind my gears, they tell you NO EXPERIENCE and no mentors want or are able always and they then push for performance goals by competition design specs beyond your experience. You wouldn't learn to fly a plane in an F/A-18 first flight. They start you in slow crap Cessna. Yet the competitions start you at the end of performance spectrum by point system logic. And I found out the hard way all the hobbyists with more experience were clearly right. Literally those competitions are the danger ones regardless of L number... These competitions need to require mentors my two dumb cents. SEDS and IREC crap I'll complain more of SEDS. You start at complex multistage without a clue. Or much oversight. We were teaching our prof to use open rocket the day before his cert. There's a reason 68 teams did not finish, they didn't have a clue and likely thought it was dangerous. The competitions encourage max performance MD by altitude scoring. Experienced or not.

I was mad as h*** on paper scoring only a crumpled flaming ball of what used to be an airframe with an altimeter beeping out 14,000ft plus beats doing everything safe at SEDS and recovering a two stage intact airframe. SEDS only cares about altitude bonuses, and the tech reports. The other points matter but stage recovery was five points versus continuously scoring for every additional 300ft above 3,000ft no top limit on points or alt until it hits the max limit. SEDS lets you use TRA research options without the experience as long as you follow regs. ESRA or whatnot claims the regs stiffle invention and my personal opinion is they do not want RSO's grounding unsafe rockets. At SEDS; I had the freedom to innovate an entire airframe or even ask about motor mods, Several teams mixed motors with an L-2 for example which was worth five points, Hybrids were allowed, Not ramjets or liquids, and Literally we had the freedom to do anything allowed in regulated hobby rocketry as long as we followed the rules which in my opinion is plenty given the whole no experience and no mentor starting pace.


Do you hold your breath the entire time you're typing?
 
No but I just bought an estes conquest to wreck on a RMS24-60.
 
Speaking in regards to high power, I completely lost interest in the hobby while working on my L2 project. Spent a ton of cash, researched, CAD designed and built a complex electronics setup for it, did the fancy carbon fiber parts, laminates, vaccuum setup, 3D printing, telemetry with live video, etc., and it now sits in a box unfinished with about ten other more advanced projects (L3 and multi-stage territory) larger and smaller that were half built but never finished. I did read a little bit, sat for and passed the L2 written test, then never finished building and flying the L2 project. They go up, they come back down. That's pretty much the extent of the excitement in this hobby for me. The more advanced electronics systems are still limited in scope enough that my interest wanes not long after figuring them out. The higher they go, the less you see, the larger the motor, the higher the cost. Even if one has a few extra bucks laying around, who wants to literally burn two or three grand on a few K through M flights in an afternoon? For me, the design and construction was more fun than flying them. Granted it was a tremendous learning experience, but that's where it ends for me with most endeavors in my life, once I figure it out, I'm already on to something else. Blame my attention span, but I plateaued with this hobby after about two years. Perhaps I'm not alone, as so many others seem to consider themselves a "BAR", as well as however many never even make it back after a quick stint.
 
I know what you may like, rocket gliders, because you get to fly it. You'll see it the entire flight path. And if you land it towards you remember left on control stick is to your right and vice versa. Plus you'll get one shot to not muck up the landing and it'll use small rocket motors. But I loved flying real planes and some R/C. You'll add a lot of lateral movement to hobby. It'll be more R/C car like but you'll have the option to change alt vertically and laterally with turning radius. You can add aerobatics as you build up flying skills. And If it wrecks its $50 of foam and servos no biggie. You should see it the entire flight. And the design may get different.
 
Level One Test

1. Which end of the rocket goes up?
(A) Pointy end.
(B) End with the flat things that stick out.

2. Where does the motor go (this is also known as the "engine" if you are flying an Estes rocket)?
(A) Inside the tube thingy where the flat things stick out.
(B) Wherever I can fit it.

3. Why does your rocket have a parachute?
(A) Because they were sold out of streamers.
(B) Because it's a drag, or something like that.

4. What does the "H" mean in your motor designator?
(A) This will go High!
(B) Help! The motor keeps falling out of the bottom.

5. How will you know you passed the certification flight?

(A) When the LCO says, "Looks like a successful attempt. Let's give [insert your name here] a hand!"
(B) When they let me buy another H motor.
 
Level One Test

Is this parody, or a proposal?

Level One Test

5. How will you know you passed the certification flight?

(A) When the LCO says, "Looks like a successful attempt. Let's give [insert your name here] a hand!"
(B) When they let me buy another H motor.

SERIOUSLY -- I didn't get an "attaboy" from the LCO for my L1. There should be a LCO certification process.

... they come back down. That's pretty much the extent of the excitement in this hobby for me. ....

I wonder if model train enthusiasts ever have this kind of crisis? "They're just going around and around in my basement. They never really get anywhere!"

That said, I see the end looming. I have a few projects I want to build but, as CORZERO observes, once a problem is solved it ceases to be interesting.

Now, if somebody was giving out merit badges...

thustbar.png
 
This is where the idea of merit badges comes in.

[video=youtube;XT8hE7_8BCY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT8hE7_8BCY&index=2&list=RDe1lyNt5km8U[/video]

Do we need a cert process for all aspects of rocketry?

Do a cert when you realize you can't (easily) buy the next big motor without out.
Otherwise, it's just a blot of ink on a plastic card...

a
 
Don't know what's the problem with you guys.....there is way more to it than "up and down".

You only get out of something...what you put into it!
My greatest rocket moments/memories are the "hunts'' or recovery for high fliers.....one can never see.

Out for a couple hours with your best rocket buddies cipher'n upper winds direction & speeds. Chute decent rates. tracker signals. Some libation of sorts to help pass the time...THEN YOU FIND IT!

Back at camp in the evenings sharing experiences with other rocketeers [and drinks & food]
Some of these folks I only see once or twice a year., but they are truly friends in the deepest meaning.

Helping sort out problems for newbies or even experienced fliers.

The beauty of night skies at Blackrock & Argonia, pizza parties at Midwest power.... dinners with friends at Red Glare........
The list goes on & on. if you ain't getting anything out of it anymore, you quite putting anything in to it....or it really never bit you hard enough to realize the camaraderie of the flying brotherhood experience, such as I know & many of my flying buddies all know.

We go to launches to see each other, as much as we do to fly.

Heck last time I looked.... my badge was stamped ...... "LEVEL 13" ya'll need to catch up.:wink:
 
Out for a couple hours with your best rocket buddies cipher'n upper winds direction & speeds. Chute decent rates. tracker signals. Some libation of sorts to help pass the time...THEN YOU FIND IT!

My favorite photos are always the "FOUND IT!!!" shots....

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CJ hit the nail on the head. For me it's about the find. NOTHING in rocketry compares in my book. Cool thing about that is you can hunt a 29mm rocket the same as a 4" project.

Having been doing this for a while, I still haven't camped out at a launch. I hope to change that at Argonia this year. The thought of catching up with old friends that I haven't seen since I left CT along with a couple new Texas buds and all the guys that I know of but haven't met yet is pretty cool if you ask me. Hanging out with a couple fingers of rum, chilling by the fire and sneaking off with the binoculars to scan the summer sky. Man where do I sign??
 
Don't know what's the problem with you guys.....there is way more to it than "up and down".

You only get out of something...what you put into it!
My greatest rocket moments/memories are the "hunts'' or recovery for high fliers.....one can never see.

Out for a couple hours with your best rocket buddies cipher'n upper winds direction & speeds. Chute decent rates. tracker signals. Some libation of sorts to help pass the time...THEN YOU FIND IT!

Back at camp in the evenings sharing experiences with other rocketeers [and drinks & food]
Some of these folks I only see once or twice a year., but they are truly friends in the deepest meaning.

Helping sort out problems for newbies or even experienced fliers.

The beauty of night skies at Blackrock & Argonia, pizza parties at Midwest power.... dinners with friends at Red Glare........
The list goes on & on. if you ain't getting anything out of it anymore, you quite putting anything in to it....or it really never bit you hard enough to realize the camaraderie of the flying brotherhood experience, such as I know & many of my flying buddies all know.

We go to launches to see each other, as much as we do to fly.

Heck last time I looked.... my badge was stamped ...... "LEVEL 13" ya'll need to catch up.:wink:

Amen, Reverend Jim!
 
This has been a fairly interesting thread to read. I'm one of those goobers rushing straight into L3. Kit gets shipped tomorrow according the the guys at MC. I've a fair amount of experience designing scratch built birds at school, so it's not like I'm new. I just never had a reason to get certed before now. lol

I agree, there's a lot of dudes out there who really don't have enough common sense. Why in the holy hell would you get L2 and then show up somewhere with a min diameter L3 project? I think those people are just here out of ego. They've always got those long tales about ALL THE CRAP THEY DID TO MAKE IT STRONGER, LIGHTER, SIM BETTER, ETC. It's the same thing again and again and again. There's no personality. It's like they want everyone to know how good they are walking into this thing so that they get instant "status" as a badass.

I wish that people who get into this hobby would spend a little more time getting to know people and not just motor specs. Rocket people are so cool. I've yet to go to a launch and not have a great time. I was out at the Launch Crue event in Holland, Indiana this weekend, and it was a bunch of guys launching low power stuff in their backyard. We were doing a school thing so we didn't get to interact a whole bunch, but they were awesome. No egos, lots of jokes, and probably the warmest welcome we've ever gotten. It was a little weird loading up a J800T during a low-power competition but they didn't seem to mind at all. lol.

The guys in the club here at school are pooling money to send them a bulk pack of estes motors. :)
 
This has been a fairly interesting thread to read. I'm one of those goobers rushing straight into L3. Kit gets shipped tomorrow according the the guys at MC. I've a fair amount of experience designing scratch built birds at school, so it's not like I'm new. I just never had a reason to get certed before now. lol

I agree, there's a lot of dudes out there who really don't have enough common sense. Why in the holy hell would you get L2 and then show up somewhere with a min diameter L3 project? I think those people are just here out of ego. They've always got those long tales about ALL THE CRAP THEY DID TO MAKE IT STRONGER, LIGHTER, SIM BETTER, ETC. It's the same thing again and again and again. There's no personality. It's like they want everyone to know how good they are walking into this thing so that they get instant "status" as a badass.

I wish that people who get into this hobby would spend a little more time getting to know people and not just motor specs. Rocket people are so cool. I've yet to go to a launch and not have a great time. I was out at the Launch Crue event in Holland, Indiana this weekend, and it was a bunch of guys launching low power stuff in their backyard. We were doing a school thing so we didn't get to interact a whole bunch, but they were awesome. No egos, lots of jokes, and probably the warmest welcome we've ever gotten. It was a little weird loading up a J800T during a low-power competition but they didn't seem to mind at all. lol.

The guys in the club here at school are pooling money to send them a bulk pack of estes motors. :)

Hence the reason for scratch building, then you can get all the personality you want. It was also for me a prime chance to experiment in construction techniques, nose cone av-bay conversions, carbon fiber balsa composite fins, fin pockets, Fiberglass wrapped Loc tube airframe, Stickershock vinyl, thrustplate, altimeter bay hatch cover, and homebrewed motor adapters (the rocket has a 98mm MMT, but has only flown on a 75mm M1297W and 54mm L1000W).

Nothing says people have to spend years getting to L3, and some find it offensive when people blow through the certs in a short time, but I look back at all the things I might have done much better or differently if I had taken longer than a year between L2 and L3. Timing is important too for each individual, I knew it was then or possibly a very long time. L3CC's and TAP's have something to say about how long it can take before your ready (not that they can do much to prevent someone rushing), but they can voice their concerns to the prospective L3 flyer that they feel the individual needs more experience etc. People shouldn't be offended if the TAP or L3CC voices said concern either, its not personal, my L3CC did not know me personally but he did (I found out later) talk with several individuals who knew me and my build and flying style before he agreed to approve my L3 project proposal. I could have shopped another L3CC but thats not my style especially when he is a well respected member of the rocketry community in the NW, he is also a Tripoli TAP (and at one time a member of Tripolis Class 3 committee iirc).


L3CertDay2.jpgFITS May 28 2016-54cropped.jpgFITS May 28 2016-56cropped.jpgFITS 2016 039cropped1.jpg
 
Level One Test

1. Which end of the rocket goes up?
(A) Pointy end.
(B) End with the flat things that stick out.

2. Where does the motor go (this is also known as the "engine" if you are flying an Estes rocket)?
(A) Inside the tube thingy where the flat things stick out.
(B) Wherever I can fit it.

3. Why does your rocket have a parachute?
(A) Because they were sold out of streamers.
(B) Because it's a drag, or something like that.

4. What does the "H" mean in your motor designator?
(A) This will go High!
(B) Help! The motor keeps falling out of the bottom.

5. How will you know you passed the certification flight?

(A) When the LCO says, "Looks like a successful attempt. Let's give [insert your name here] a hand!"
(B) When they let me buy another H motor.
1.A
2.A
3.B
4.A
5.A (Already living boat B on buying more motors for more cert attempts).
 
I agree, there's a lot of dudes out there who really don't have enough common sense. Why in the holy hell would you get L2 and then show up somewhere with a min diameter L3 project?
The best no common sense story I heard was an RSO explaining how someone actually thought HPR fins were "snap on". I might be a noob and all but I attempted to glue it together. Good grief. The next best story was a M motor with live igniter punching through a motel room wall. And I bet a bunch of the L-3 min diameter types lose a rocket out of waiver lateral bounds and fail L3.

Anyways I hope TTU places better at SEDS. Do me a favor where I failed and kick Mizzou's butt. The more SEDS awards the Tennesseans take from SEDS, the better.
 
I wonder if model train enthusiasts ever have this kind of crisis? "They're just going around and around in my basement. They never really get anywhere!"
I knew a guy that owned Bike World and a Lionel "shop" as a kid in Collierville, TN. He always invited his customers over to his house to see model train dorks. These guys were in their fifties to seventies. Their wives were train dorks. Because no sane person would spend more money on train sets and scale towns then turn entire lawns into track layouts. So they had these gradients and curves modeled to scale and they would attempt coal car pulls at speed and try not to tip the train over. The record was 121 cars with scale masses calculated pulled by three engines. They'd laugh and cry when friends crashed. These guys were dumping like three L-3 flights into just a train set that had all the scale details put onto it custom made. They wanted the exact train they worked on for blah decades often. Then they would talk train stories. Charlie was the dude's name. Old Fart is a good train dork stereotype. The museum ones know how to start oil fired steam locos.

As a little kid, I had the realization they just go in circles and it bored me. Forward or backwards. I had three train sets as a kid until I got bored with that hobby. Anyways. Those train hobbyists are clearly obsessed with train toys. Then if your nuts, they had these small scale steam Locos that you sit on coal fired, with bigger rails, external exposed to elements. Sometimes those exploded and derailed. Like a huge train set you sat on but at national events.

Oh yeah their crisis was honey we ran out of storage "pods" to put all the train cars in. I nearly forgot that part. Charlie converted his basement into a model train workshop. His big project was a TR-1 or one of the last steam locomotives. He had ran out of square footage to store trains at. You couldn't hardly walk anywhere without nearly stepping on a train set. It was like hording but with train sets. They called it collecting but I thought they had problems.
 
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Andrew, are you aware of the Edit Post function? Assuming you can't consolidate your thoughts in the first place, that is. Good grief... :rolleyes:
 
Andrew, are you aware of the Edit Post function? Assuming you can't consolidate your thoughts in the first place, that is. Good grief... :rolleyes:

dont tell him that. He’ll take a breath and add more.
 
The more I read your post, the more I am convinced you are a put on. Gotta be Troj or someone else back from the nether regions just playing a big old troll gag on TRF. Mason???
 
At least rocket dorks don't wear coduroy black and white suspenders. They don't show up at rocket launches in a space suit and flight helmet.
 
I knew a guy that owned Bike World and a Lionel "shop" as a kid in Collierville, TN. He always invited his customers over to his house to see model train dorks. These guys were in their fifties to seventies. Their wives were train dorks. Because no sane person would spend more money on train sets and scale towns then turn entire lawns into track layouts. So they had these gradients and curves modeled to scale and they would attempt coal car pulls at speed and try not to tip the train over. They'd laugh and cry when friends crashed. These guys were dumping like three L-3 flights into just a train set that had all the scale details put onto it custom made. They wanted the exact train they worked on for blah decades often. Then they would talk train stories. Charlie was the dude's name. Old Fart is a good train dork stereotype. The museum ones know how to start oil fired steam locos.

As a little kid, I had the realization they just go in circles and it bored me. Forward or backwards. I had three train sets as a kid until I got bored with that hobby. Anyways. Those train hobbyists are clearly obsessed with train toys. Then if your nuts, they had these small scale steam Locos that you sit on coal fired, with bigger rails, external exposed to elements. Sometimes those exploded and derailed. Like a huge train set you sat on but at national events.

Andrew, that's a pretty sad (and somewhat illegible) comment. (Of course, it's exactly what I'd expect from you.)

We have our rockets, they have their trains. It's what they like & love. They can say the same of us..

If you took the time to look & listen, you might realize that these "train dorks" are very talented modellers & have a passion for what they do. Look at what they built, what they've turned their basement into. (Shall we discuss your fin fillets?!) Look at the detail, the attention to that detail, the adherence to real life rules & regs, and of the specific time period they are trying to model. They spend much more energy on "functioning" as a typical railroad than just making their cars run around the loop..

Model trains have been around for MUCH longer than rockets.. R/C planes even..

A large number of us rocketeers are in our 50s & 70s.. Are we, then, also dorks?! And should get out of the hobby?!


-proud 50+ rocket dork
 
Andrew, are you aware of the Edit Post function? Assuming you can't consolidate your thoughts in the first place, that is. Good grief... :rolleyes:
Yeah bro edit works. I added more rambling to train posts. They got me rambling.
 
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