Help me to understand hazmat shipping

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

TNmike

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2017
Messages
58
Reaction score
10
IIIIFFFF I understand correctly, you can order a 100 pounds of single use motors and/or grains for reloadables, as long as none of them exceed 30 grams propellant each, and it's not considered a hazmat shipment. But, if you order ONE motor or grain which is 30.1 grams (or larger), it has to be shipped hazmat. Is this correct? And if so, how did the regulators come up with that rationale? I'm trying to understand the safety factor.

Second, when an order is deemed hazmat, what is done different in the actual shipping process verses a standard shipment?

Anyway, just find this interesting but challenging to understand. Thanks
 
IIIIFFFF I understand correctly, you can order a 100 pounds of single use motors and/or grains for reloadables, as long as none of them exceed 30 grams propellant each, and it's not considered a hazmat shipment. But, if you order ONE motor or grain which is 30.1 grams (or larger), it has to be shipped hazmat. Is this correct? And if so, how did the regulators come up with that rationale? I'm trying to understand the safety factor.

Second, when an order is deemed hazmat, what is done different in the actual shipping process verses a standard shipment?

Anyway, just find this interesting but challenging to understand. Thanks

I can answer your second question. The packaging has to meet required standards, for instance, box material and thickness, etc., and it needs to carry labels describing it as flammable and hazardous; plus, it needs to be shipped ground freight only.
 
In my opinion, it has nothing to do with "safety" it all just comes down to someone is just using hazmat to make a lot of extra $$$$$$$$$. I agree with you, it makes no sense. If it really has to do with safety then why has hazmat shipping costs gone up almost $10.00 over the last few years? When you are paying separate shipping costs to ship the items and a separate cost for hazmat, how can inflation affect the "safety" cost involved for hazmat? My understanding is that hazmat motors use a special thicker cardboard box to "protect" the contents better. Again, in my opinion, "Hazmat" is just a buzzword that is being used to make someone or several someone's a lot of extra money. Who gets that money anyway???

Example - I have old school low voltage Malibu "path lights". They use a 12v auto tail light bulb. If I need a new bulb, I can go to the outdoor lighting section and pay $5.00 for a "specialty bulb" or I can got to the automotive section and pay $1.50 for two bulbs. They are the exact same bulb but "specialty low voltage pathway bulb" sounds better and they can charge you a lot more for something that is not any different than the standard non-specialty item. Just like shipping and adding Hazmat shipping. Hazmat sounds way more dangerous and therefore we can charge a separate fee because it is so much more dangerous to ship a single 31 gram motor than 20 pounds of individual 29 gram motors. Just a money grab that someone came up with as far as I am concerned.

...Fudd
 
IIIIFFFF I understand correctly, you can order a 100 pounds of single use motors and/or grains for reloadables, as long as none of them exceed 30 grams propellant each, and it's not considered a hazmat shipment. But, if you order ONE motor or grain which is 30.1 grams (or larger), it has to be shipped hazmat. Is this correct? And if so, how did the regulators come up with that rationale? I'm trying to understand the safety factor.

...

I used to ponder this question myself from time to time and I don't think I can point to the answer for you. I suspect the work of some high-priced consultants generating mountains of data and statistics (https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/).

My conclusion is that it's just one of the many hidden "taxes" we pay daily to fund the agencies that run our lives. A little cynical perhaps. :blush:
 
Just for correctness, all rocket motors are considered HAZMAT and have to be shipped accordingly. Certain smaller motors may be sent by USPS which does not charge a HAZMAT fee. (And the limit is 25 pounds per package.)

The exemption for the USPS was created long ago and written specifically to allow small "toy propellant" motors to be mailed by USPS. At the time there weren't any larger consumer rocket motors. So, the intent of the toy propellant exemption was good - though in practice it doesn't make sense since a single larger motor is probably safer to ship than a large number of smaller ones.
 
Thanks all. Roger, that makes some sense. It clarifies some of my misunderstanding. It sounds like they need to update the code to match the present situation, yet I have a feeling they would go overboard due to the many nuts in the world doing awful, crazy things, and we would pay the price, in inconvenience and also monetarily.
 
Its not that crazy actually. Its like comparing wagyu tenderloin and supermarket sirloin and calling them both beef so they should cost the same. A lot more has to go into shipping something deemed hazardous. #1 is the economy of scale. Because it can't be shipped by air with everything else the price goes up right there. It has to be handled differently than 95% of the things being shipped. This costs more man hours and logistics just to move these packages from point A to point B. #2 is the actual transport of hazmat material on a public highway. You must have special training and licensing to transport such things on a public highway. All of that costs money. Even the drivers who are qualified to transport hazmat cost more per hour/mile than a standard driver. Then theres the insurance and stuff thats required. It actually costs a lot to ship hazmat.

As far as the 30 gram limit... well I guess the limit had to be made somewhere. I'm actually surprised the rules aren't much more strict. I'm pretty sure a 29.9gram propellant grain would easily set an entire 18wheelers worth of cardboard and other packing materials on fire if it happened to ignite while in transit. Not to mention if more than just one were in a box.

Is there additional profit in that hazmat fee? If there is, I doubt its very much.
 
Thanks all. Roger, that makes some sense. It clarifies some of my misunderstanding. It sounds like they need to update the code to match the present situation, yet I have a feeling they would go overboard due to the many nuts in the world doing awful, crazy things, and we would pay the price, in inconvenience and also monetarily.

Bingo. This is why we like to keep our mouths shut where motors and regulations are concerned.
 
"I see nothing, I know nothing!"
[video=youtube;UmzsWxPLIOo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmzsWxPLIOo[/video]
 
When my last Hazmat shipment arrived, the FedEx driver had the box in one hand and a lit cigarette in the other. It was close enough to the mail bomb incidents that I didn't feel up to telling him he was holding a box of rocket fuel next to his ciggie. So certain things may not filter down to the driver level even if the box has all the right markings. :)
 
When my last Hazmat shipment arrived, the FedEx driver had the box in one hand and a lit cigarette in the other. It was close enough to the mail bomb incidents that I didn't feel up to telling him he was holding a box of rocket fuel next to his ciggie. So certain things may not filter down to the driver level even if the box has all the right markings. :)

He knew, he just didn't care. I have had to tell more than one person smoking while pumping gas that it is illegal, dangerous, and foolish.
 
And everyone who ships hazmat material has to take a special course each year or every other year?) The cost of the course is about $400.

And the ValuJet mechanic that improperly shipped oxygen generators is still on the run. In 1999 a ValuJet DC-9 crashed after catching on fire and killed 110 people. It is believed that airplane parts (oxygen generators for emergency oxygen masks) were improperly packaged and shipped on the aircraft and somehow caught on fire and destroyed the aircraft.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article76986557.html
 
One of the things that makes HAZMAT products more expensive to ship is that oft times one type/class cannot be shipped with other types/classes of HAZMAT materials, for example explosives and things like oxidizers, flammable liquids/solids, dangerous when wet. That makes for extra logistics and organizational issues for shippers, hence extra costs.

SepSegHAZMAT.jpg
 
IIIIFFFF I understand correctly, you can order a 100 pounds of single use motors and/or grains for reloadables, as long as none of them exceed 30 grams propellant each, and it's not considered a hazmat shipment. But, if you order ONE motor or grain which is 30.1 grams (or larger), it has to be shipped hazmat. Is this correct? And if so, how did the regulators come up with that rationale? I'm trying to understand the safety factor.
Because our small hobby can't afford this:

Toles-on-Regulatory-Capture.jpg


to overcome this:

ee8c8-bureaucracycartoon_orig.gif


These industries can. Ship cases of these, no hazmat as far as I know. Ask yourself which bonfire you'd rather stand by, one with a motor with 30.1g of BP in it or one with a case of any of these in it:

map-pro-cylinder---2012-label.jpg


p_1000739380.jpg


41opKMMBbQL._SY355_.jpg


Regulations and large licensing fees are also used to hamper competitors. Of course, not all regulations are bad. Many are important to have. It's just the ones that from a basic analysis appear to have been pulled it out of someone's bureaucratic posterior that annoy me.
 
ORMD's (Other Regulated Materials-Domestic) are what all of the above products fall under and they are hazardous materials just like hazmats. Where they are special is that they have been determined to be of less risk to the public and therefore several things have been waived such as a signed shippers certification (that evil document that accompanies each hazmat shipment with all kinds of important info on it like UN number, emergency contact info, and the shipers cert, the carriers reps signature(driver), etc). They may only be shipped ground via USPS, UPS, FedEx, if shipped via air they require the same fees and paperwork as shipping regular hazmat. ORMD's also do not required UN approved packaging or placarding of the carrier vehicle. Imagine how much more expensive regular domestic items such as just about anything aerosol would be if a hazmat fee was applied to it.

However the two cartoons say it best, thank the lobbyist's.
 
I know where you all are coming from. While I'm very thankful to live in a country where safety is taken seriously, I just wished the rules and regulations were more balanced, rational, reasonable, etc. But I also know to question law makers and regulators is to open cans of worms, and probably to make things worse, not better for the hobby.
 
Back
Top