Have you signed a non-compete agreement at your job?

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Zeus-cat

Zeus-cat

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I had to sign one when I worked as an engineer. Essentially, in order to get the job you have to agree not to go work for a competitor for a period of time after you leave the company. Usually the period is 2 years or less.

I just read an article that companies are using these agreements in part to keep wages down. That seems like a valid claim because if you can't work in your field for 2 years it is tough to leave a job no matter how badly you want to get out.

This topic was discussed on a call-in radio show months ago, but I never got around to posting it until today. These agreements aren't being used just for engineers and other professionals. Employees as diverse as sandwich makers, yoga instructors, camp counselors, janitors and even landscapers (literally the guys hauling dirt around your yard) are being required to sign these agreements.

Did you ever have to sign one?
 
I've heard those cannot be upheld if they keep you from earning an income in your field of work.

I'd double check.
 
Enforceability varies by state. I live where they are enforceable. However, if you are fired, as opposed to quit, the agreement is void.

In my line of work (marketing / sales / business exec stuff) they are common. You have to sign one to get a job. If you quit, you need to pick a job in a somewhat different industry, dealing with a different product or service. So for example, if you sell widgets, and take a new job, it has to be selling cogs instead of widgets. Non-compete would only apply if you try to sell widgets.
 
Zeus-cat said:
I just read an article that companies are using these agreements in part to keep wages down. That seems like a valid claim because if you can't work in your field for 2 years it is tough to leave a job no matter how badly you want to get out.

This topic was discussed on a call-in radio show months ago, but I never got around to posting it until today. These agreements aren't being used just for engineers and other professionals. Employees as diverse as sandwich makers, yoga instructors, camp counselors, janitors and even landscapers (literally the guys hauling dirt around your yard) are being required to sign these agreements.

Did you ever have to sign one?
Click to expand...

Yes, though I don't view it as anything nearly as nafarious as what is suggested above.

First of all - anything and everything is negotiable during job offer/acceptance sequence. Folks usually only fixate on comp (salary/bonus/vacation/medical), but the other 90% of terms and conditions also matter.
Non-disparage, social-media restrictions, code of conduct, non-publish anything without empolyer's legal review, and non-compete are also (sometimes) in there.
Non-compete is typically 6-12 months, but rearely shows up in individual contributor level contracts.

Non-compete makes sense if you are in a position to know and influence competitive product offerings from a large enough company in your industry. Or work on a bunch of NDA projects.
Taking that product/pricing pipeline knowledge, or customer databases, or code to a competitor, can be highly detrimental to your company's future revenue stream.

I've seen some people trying to corcumvent these policies under the radar, then get caught, get sued, and loose thier new jobs along with any severance/payoff packages they were due to recieve from the previous job.


Marc_G said:
Enforceability varies by state. I live where they are enforceable. However, if you are fired, as opposed to quit, the agreement is void.
Click to expand...

True, though separation package also usually come with (shorter) non-compete clauses.

a
 
Here in CA they are not enforceable. I've been walked out of a job when I announced that I was going to work for a competitor, but that's all that they could do. The HR rep I talked to said "don't tell anyone that you're going to work for a competitor until you're ready to walk out the door." I said "OK, I'll tell you on Friday right after lunch." ;^)
 
afadeev said:
Yes, though I don't view it as anything nearly as nafarious as what is suggested above.
Click to expand...

As I recall from the radio show they discussed the case of a landscaper who quit one company and went to work for another. The guy literally hauled dirt in a wheelbarrow. The old employer sued claiming he had signed a non-compete agreement. The old employer won. I don't remember what happened to the guy, but it must have been worth the company's time and cost to go after the guy who literally hauled dirt.

Jimmy John's the sandwich maker (like Subway's if you've never heard of them) makes their sandwich artists sign non-compete agreements. And janitors? I don't see how someone in these jobs can take trade secrets to a new employer that would be catastrophic to the old employer.
 
Zeus-cat said:
As I recall from the radio show they discussed the case of a landscaper who quit one company and went to work for another. The guy literally hauled dirt in a wheelbarrow. The old employer sued claiming he had signed a non-compete agreement. The old employer won. I don't remember what happened to the guy, but it must have been worth the company's time and cost to go after the guy who literally hauled dirt.

Jimmy John's the sandwich maker (like Subway's if you've never heard of them) makes their sandwich artists sign non-compete agreements. And janitors? I don't see how someone in these jobs can take trade secrets to a new employer that would be catastrophic to the old employer.
Click to expand...

For janitors, it's not the work they do, it's the access they have. Janitors often literally have total access to every space in the facility and might well have seen proprietary stuff in development or even ideas, sketches, or detailed drawings carelessly left on desktops (in locked offices). Having a non-compete for a janitor may just be an attempt to keep an engineer from a competitor from being hired as a janitor in an attempt at industrial espionage. The non-compete in that case would just give the company more leverage if they ever needed to go after an offender.
 
When my company asked me to sign a non-compete contract, I told them I wouldn't without including that they would pay me my salary for the duration of the contract. They decided it wasn't needed so I didn't sign.
 
Peartree said:
For janitors, it's not the work they do, it's the access they have. Janitors often literally have total access to every space in the facility and might well have seen proprietary stuff in development or even ideas, sketches, or detailed drawings carelessly left on desktops (in locked offices). Having a non-compete for a janitor may just be an attempt to keep an engineer from a competitor from being hired as a janitor in an attempt at industrial espionage. The non-compete in that case would just give the company more leverage if they ever needed to go after an offender.
Click to expand...

I had to report a few incidents to engineering directors that broke a bunch of car factory robots by software code or suspicious wire swaps. People got terminated. Nobody knew the guy that broke everything which was unsettling to say the least. Fake software coders in contract company uniforms. The difference between the actual coder and a spy is the actual coder would understand factory machining troubleshooting questions and TRY to acknowledge an issue before coding. The contractors never signed non compete. The spies would slam a keyboard on a robot terminal and just start sprinting as everything fell apart infront of us. That director yelled sabotage in broken English. Robots don't just weld anything not specified. Worst was a PLC box locked with a wire disconnected then mis positioned before our shift started at 5:06AM with sirens going off, h*** of way to start robot fault tracking in excel as fifty PLC dorks came sprinting with machinery libraries of wiring diagrams. And a supervisor staying there with files in hand of previous shifts. Reality of people getting terminated and possible felonies. The absolute worst feeling was when fellow workers and contractors couldn't even put a name to the offenders.

German directors have an odd angered way of yelling the word sabotage that I never want to hear again. These were access at physical terminal locations. These spy morons were twenty seconds in out ask questions to them lead to them sprinting like crazy... I was just the engineer dork intern with a timer and excel as an contractor. But we observed some crazy crap. Our group saw everything from robots crashing in severe collision and falling over coolant leaking to welds not being complete or wrong weld positions outside of normal weld position. They kept us around longer to watch whoever was causing all the problems.
 
Andrew_ASC said:
I had to report a few incidents to engineering directors that broke a bunch of car factory robots by software code or suspicious wire swaps. People got terminated. Nobody knew the guy that broke everything which was unsettling to say the least. Fake software coders in contract company uniforms. The difference between the actual coder and a spy is the actual coder would understand factory machining troubleshooting questions and TRY to acknowledge an issue before coding. The contractors never signed non compete. The spies would slam a keyboard on a robot terminal and just start sprinting as everything fell apart infront of us. That director yelled sabotage in broken English. Robots don't just weld anything not specified. Worst was a PLC box locked with a wire disconnected then mis positioned before our shift started at 5:06AM with sirens going off, h*** of way to start robot fault tracking in excel as fifty PLC dorks came sprinting with machinery libraries of wiring diagrams. And a supervisor staying there with files in hand of previous shifts. Reality of people getting terminated and possible felonies. The absolute worst feeling was when fellow workers and contractors couldn't even put a name to the offenders.

German directors have an odd angered way of yelling the word sabotage that I never want to hear again. These were access at physical terminal locations. These spy morons were twenty seconds in out ask questions to them lead to them sprinting like crazy... I was just the engineer dork intern with a timer and excel as an contractor. But we observed some crazy crap. Our group saw everything from robots crashing in severe collision and falling over coolant leaking to welds not being complete or wrong weld positions outside of normal weld position. They kept us around longer to watch whoever was causing all the problems.
Click to expand...
Wow, 928 posts Andrew and maybe 10 actually applicable to any of the many threads subjects. This thread is about non- compete agreements not reporting failures and conspiracies.
 
rharshberger said:
Wow, 928 posts Andrew and maybe 10 actually applicable to any of the many threads subjects. This thread is about non- compete agreements not reporting failures and conspiracies.
Click to expand...

FuNAC welding and parts moving robots were programmed to specifically avoid collisions. The usual collisions were human override mechanic induced accident the mechanic would admit fault and everyone would sigh as stuff happened although rare. When the robot crashed into another while performing path following tasks "automatic" run mode, someone usually tampered with coordinates via machine terminal. Somebody with sophisticated training to car factory machinery likely broke non compete and used their FuNAC programming skills to break sh*t and we saw it happen. Be glad you never had to report officially at work to a director about witnessing sabotage. Failure of the decade right here. The only people authorized to edit machine coordinates were teams of engineers in white helmets. The car company would test coordinate modifications in a controlled test manner for cycle time and not during a official shift unless otherwise announced.

We saw people with black golf tees and PPE open consoles, edit data, slam consoles shut,and leave as carnage began. Simple questions like who are you became avoided instantly. That is the exact kind of dangers that companies look to avoid with non compete. Most of the software coders didn't have the knowledge to change robot paths. This operation was beyond trained operator or mechanic level. The coders would only change coordinates with an engineer nearby.
 
I had to sign an NDA yesterday. I can't tell you what was in it.

A friend signed a non compete but after leaving that company went to work for their direct competitor and nobody ever said anything. Maybe he didn't know enough for it to be a problem, or maybe they'd only find out if there was an issue or something?
 
Andrew_ASC said:
Yeah didn't think that one through. You are probably right.
Click to expand...

If you thought he was right, why did you go on to make another accusatory post?! Seriously, go back and edit your comments to delete that content. It's not for me or your former employer, it's for you. I've hired engineering interns as well as engineers. I can assure you that if you had told stories like these ones in an interview, you would never have been hired. Every company has some warts, and nobody wants to hire someone (especially an intern!) who is going to spread stories all over their future jobs. Companies hiring you for an internship are doing you a favor. They aren't expecting to get really useful work out of you, although it's a bonus if they do. It would have been easier for them to just do the work with their regular employees in most cases. So don't slag them off later!

That's not to mention that there are a lot of people in the aerospace profession here who may be on your hiring team for a job. It's not that big an industry and the more enemies you make by running others down, the fewer places you will be able to go in the future.

If I'm giving advice to interns, it's to be nice, be humble, be helpful, and ask a lot of questions. To steal a line from Lin-Manuel Miranda, smile more, talk less. Like I said, the company you're interning with is doing you a favor by hiring you for a 3-month job interview.
 
That company sent us to factory floor to snitch on all the broken stuff. All of it. It was costing them millions a day by flaws in processes and machine faults. Production increased forty percent. I found problems with company management standard operation procedures through line operators getting upset at bad internal policies that further damaged machinery lenses and laser alignment on part tolerance part inserts by using alcohol not polymer wipes which scratched machinery lenses then deflected and refracted light projected lasers out of hole position on parts. This caused robot faults all day. A director was terminated after a contract company said they installed the equipment and only recommended polymer wipes. A director wrote a policy enforcing use of incorrect alcohol wipes not recommended on the equipment. This resulted in door gate errors in manual parts loading sections and downtimes. They assigned more resources to me afterwards. I might come off as a jerk on a forum and not have social political correct sense. And I don't have a super GPa anyways. Only a 2.8. I will find your company flaws and help you correct the issues. That company left a message they want to know when I graduate etc. They liked me.

I asked the CEO to ask the most experienced line tech what the problem origin was that the line tech told me it started at a specific door gate and messed with the Plc logic which stopped the entire line by part jams. I thought I was going to get fired, the CEO replied, "I never thought of that." The operator workers knew exactly what was broken and where it starts at and why it costs companies millions in downtime over mere seconds of line stoppages that happen 24/7 very frequently. They began talking together like normal people do.
 

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