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  1. #31
    Join Date
    6th June 2011
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    Found my Firebird in the first bin I looked in. Scanned the decals and fins through the bag and did a decal cleanup run. The gold metallic color is not that metallic..I left it as the scanned texture rather than doing a color replacement so you can see how it looks. You can easily do a color replacement in Gimp if you want since the gold is now surrounded by solid black. There was a fair amount of color registration error at the left side which has all been fixed. It's here as a png: https://photos.app.goo.gl/XvG0ne4zCtMRv1dt1

    Along the way I found out that Google Photos switches the display resolution of jpg's to 72 dpi (nondestructively, but you have to know to switch it back). it does not do that with png's so I will prefer posting in that format. TRF resizes destructively (incorrect jpg headers) so I don't post printable images here.

    For those with dimensionally challenged printers, the decal sheet is 3.00 x 9.02 inches overall, and the height of the "FIREBIRD" text is 1.04 inches.

    The fins were more of a problem. I can't easily see the diecut lines either by eye or in the scans I did. I suspect that I'm looking at the back of the fin sheet, and I can't flip it over without opening the bag. By playing with the photo though, I get the length of the long edge at 3.03". That is quite different than the values above, I'm not sure what happened there. The piece of balsa fin stock is 6.00" long.

    Dave Cook
    NAR 21953 L3 - TRA 1108 - DART San Diego

  2. #32
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    27th March 2013
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    Thanks caveduck for the graphics.

    The fin image says that the "Root Edge" is 3"... Or do you mean the *Trailing Edge* is 3". The Root Edge should be the 3rd longest edge.

    Any chance you can post the unenhanced image of the fins? And perhaps measure the body tube?

    Thanks!

    Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).


    NAR L1 Cert flight: Sheridan, Oregon, USA. Sept. 19, 2015. Flew Deep Space OFFl on an I357T-14A Blue Thunder

  3. #33
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    6th June 2011
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    Oopsie, yeah its the long trailing edge that measures 3.03" (the edge next to the notation on the photo). At least I put the text in the right place. The root edge is 1.48". Clearly the root edge was intended to be 1.5" and the TE 3.0". The die dimensions are within 1% of nominal, par for the course. I'll make a corrected photo/pattern.

    Other stuff - nose cone is 1 piece white blow molded with exposed length 4 3/8" meaning it's a PNC-50Y, the brown kraft BT-50 is 12.7" long, making it a BT-50L, and the motor tube is a standard brown BT-20J. The centering rings are the thick natural color fiber AR-2050's. Launch lug is 1.25" long - an LL-2A in the Estes system. The parachute canopy is a red/white printed Centuri CP-12. The shock cord was...*was*...the white 1/8" rubber type and has hardened and disintegrated into many pieces, typical for that stuff at 35 years on. This thing is a transitional FrankenRocket of mostly Estes parts in a Centuri bag; as far as I can see the only Centuri specific part (not counting decal/instructions/packaging) is the parachute.

    Shameless plug - if you are using OpenRocket for designing clones, you want my OpenRocket parts database, see https://github.com/dbcook/openrocket-database . It fixes insane numbers of errors and omissions in the stock OR database and has a ton of research information, adds MPC, Madcow, Estes PS2, etc.
    Dave Cook
    NAR 21953 L3 - TRA 1108 - DART San Diego

  4. #34
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    6th June 2011
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    killed double post, sorry
    Dave Cook
    NAR 21953 L3 - TRA 1108 - DART San Diego

  5. #35
    Join Date
    4th October 2014
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    897
    Really cool that you found one of the kits in your collection. The decal sheet is an excellent scan. Seems like a darker gold color than what was printed on the catalog back page.

    Looks like eRockets has a balsa version of the cone from SEMROC:
    http://www.erockets.biz/semroc-balsa...-50-4-3-ogive/

  6. #36
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    6th June 2011
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    Hi Glen! Color-matching old decals is a tough thing. The inks may have color shifted, the clear layer yellows (quite visible on the original scan), and the catalog print may not have been color-corrected very well (especially back in 1983, when it was still wet process color separations). The catalog itself may have even faded, or not been scanned well. When you go to inkjet print decals, you have to compensate for the fact that printer color profiles all assume you're printing on a white substrate, not clear...huge difference. Overall, I'd just try to make it look good. if I had to come as close as possible to the original, I'd actually do it with silkscreen and a nice gold metallic ink, single image in the middle of the screens to minimize stretch. Lotsa work there.
    Dave Cook
    NAR 21953 L3 - TRA 1108 - DART San Diego

  7. #37
    Join Date
    4th August 2011
    Location
    Lincolnton NC
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    5,465
    FWIW, that balsa scan matches the Dasher fin down to a 32" based on 3" trailing edges. All other scans are all over the place. Especially that one with the rule on it. Where does a 4" trailing edge come from? Is that a different rocket?
    Thinking outside the box is normal for me. Went inside the box once and got claustrophobic.
    Can't never did!
    Inventions weren't created by skeptics.
    Every generation will embrace amazing new discoveries, while part of the past gets lost.


  8. #38
    Join Date
    4th October 2014
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    897
    Fin shape from the FireBird kit balsa sheet picture and the Dasher#1992 instruction sheet do seem to match pretty well. Also, the larger FireHawk#2014 fin sheet has a long edge of 5", but when scaled to 3" (60% scale) also matches the shape pretty closely.

    Here is an updated template for the 18mm downscale, 73% scale of the 3" long edge original size fin patterns used here. Not sure if they make a similar shape nose cone in 18mm, a Wizard cone is a little short and not as pointy. SEMROC has a few ogives in BT-20 on either side of the 73% scale size 3.14" that might work. this is the closest one:
    http://www.erockets.biz/semroc-balsa...t20-3-2-ogive/

    CenturiFirebird.pdf
    this one uses the fold-over fins, sandwich over multiple cardstock layers, then trim to final shape.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CenturiFirebird.jpg 
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ID:	342375

  9. #39
    Join Date
    8th October 2016
    Location
    Midwest
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    253
    Quote Originally Posted by caveduck View Post
    ...Shameless plug - if you are using OpenRocket for designing clones, you want my OpenRocket parts database, see https://github.com/dbcook/openrocket-database . It fixes insane numbers of errors and omissions in the stock OR database and has a ton of research information, adds MPC, Madcow, Estes PS2, etc.
    Yeah, I've been using your DB for some time now. It has been a great help.
    Many thx for all the work you have put into the database.

  10. #40
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    4th August 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlenP View Post
    Here is an updated template for the 18mm downscale, 73% scale of the 3" long edge original size fin patterns used here.
    I scaled this to a 3" trailing edge and it too, matches the Dasher fin. I'm beginning to believe that Dasher is nothing more than a re-titled Firebird. Normally, I wouldn't be interested in a kit rocket, but seeing how this one appears to be so rare, and there is virtually NO information on it, it sparks me a little. This is the kind of thing where, traditional cloning is out the window...for me anyway. Most of you guys seem to like to go the whole 9 yards to make these models look exactly like they did when they were released, but I'm a little "Eddie Van Halen(ish)" on those matters. If we DO come to a final conclusion on a fin pattern, and I DID decide to build it, chances are that I'd upscale it to a BT 60, turn my own nose cone, decide a color scheme and cut vinyl in place of the decals. Fortunately, I own a plotter for that part of the job. Pardon the "Eddie" reference, but those boys did like to take an old song and make it theirs.
    Thinking outside the box is normal for me. Went inside the box once and got claustrophobic.
    Can't never did!
    Inventions weren't created by skeptics.
    Every generation will embrace amazing new discoveries, while part of the past gets lost.


  11. #41
    Join Date
    4th October 2014
    Posts
    897
    All this talk about the fins, I did not pay close attention to the body tube length. I thought it was 12" when I scaled my body tube template, but sounds like the actual measurement from the kit above was 12.7" so my 73% body tube needs another 0.5" added to it. Not sure how far up from the bottom the plans call for the black paint to go, I kind of measured that from the catalog picture, but not might have been exact. I will call this one close enough...

    CenturiFirebird.pdf
    UPDATE: added a launch lug

    a page from model rocket history, the last page of the last Centuri catalog, to be precise.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by caveduck View Post
    Oopsie, yeah its the long trailing edge that measures 3.03" (the edge next to the notation on the photo). At least I put the text in the right place. The root edge is 1.48". Clearly the root edge was intended to be 1.5" and the TE 3.0". The die dimensions are within 1% of nominal, par for the course. I'll make a corrected photo/pattern.

    Other stuff - nose cone is 1 piece white blow molded with exposed length 4 3/8" meaning it's a PNC-50Y, the brown kraft BT-50 is 12.7" long, making it a BT-50L, and the motor tube is a standard brown BT-20J. The centering rings are the thick natural color fiber AR-2050's. Launch lug is 1.25" long - an LL-2A in the Estes system. The parachute canopy is a red/white printed Centuri CP-12. The shock cord was...*was*...the white 1/8" rubber type and has hardened and disintegrated into many pieces, typical for that stuff at 35 years on. This thing is a transitional FrankenRocket of mostly Estes parts in a Centuri bag; as far as I can see the only Centuri specific part (not counting decal/instructions/packaging) is the parachute.

    Shameless plug - if you are using OpenRocket for designing clones, you want my OpenRocket parts database, see https://github.com/dbcook/openrocket-database . It fixes insane numbers of errors and omissions in the stock OR database and has a ton of research information, adds MPC, Madcow, Estes PS2, etc.
    Thanks for the update, and the additional info. I think I've got enough to begin my work on simming it.

    I downloaded the parts database zip file, and tried to open the README, but my computer doesn't recognize the format it's been saved in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Byrum View Post
    I scaled this to a 3" trailing edge and it too, matches the Dasher fin. I'm beginning to believe that Dasher is nothing more than a re-titled Firebird. Normally, I wouldn't be interested in a kit rocket, but seeing how this one appears to be so rare, and there is virtually NO information on it, it sparks me a little. This is the kind of thing where, traditional cloning is out the window...for me anyway. Most of you guys seem to like to go the whole 9 yards to make these models look exactly like they did when they were released, but I'm a little "Eddie Van Halen(ish)" on those matters. If we DO come to a final conclusion on a fin pattern, and I DID decide to build it, chances are that I'd upscale it to a BT 60, turn my own nose cone, decide a color scheme and cut vinyl in place of the decals. Fortunately, I own a plotter for that part of the job. Pardon the "Eddie" reference, but those boys did like to take an old song and make it theirs.
    Like many of the kits that were introduced in the 1983 Centuri Catalog, there wasn't a long time for people to pick this up. The hobby shops I remember going to the time had few (if any) Centuri kits. I should mention though, I didn't really pay rockets much attention until 1983. I'd been going to the hobby shops since I was eight (1977), but model planes held my attention then.

    One major difference between the Firebird and the Dasher is the nosecone. The instructions for the Dasher clearly show a two piece nosecone. However, it may have originally been issued with a one piece nosecone. I haven't spent any time researching that kit. [EDIT] A quick look at the Dasher instructions also turned up a single wide adapter ring (which I'd bet is green) instead of the two smaller centering rings (natural color per caveduck).
    Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).


    NAR L1 Cert flight: Sheridan, Oregon, USA. Sept. 19, 2015. Flew Deep Space OFFl on an I357T-14A Blue Thunder

  13. #43
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    I've worked up a sim of the Centuri Firebird (5359)...


    Since I don't have the instructions, I had to make a few guesses. The motor mount, the launch lug's placement, and the paint scheme are all educated guesses. Another thing is the nosecone. I suspect that the nosecone would be a match for the Centuri Spirit of America. Centuri called it the PNC-92, but Estes calls it the PNC-50Y.

    Scans (and measurements) of the fins and decals are from Dave Cook.

    I'd pose that the gold for the decals would be a match for the Pontiac Firebird... If you know your automotive paints.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).


    NAR L1 Cert flight: Sheridan, Oregon, USA. Sept. 19, 2015. Flew Deep Space OFFl on an I357T-14A Blue Thunder

  14. #44
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    4th August 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by K'Tesh View Post
    I've worked up a sim of the Firebird... Since I don't have the instructions, I had to make a few guesses. Scans of the fins and decals are from Dave Cook.
    Great! That means my CAD drawings are correct. I also have it scaled up to a BT 60 and made a nose cone template to turn a BNC 60Y. I might just have to build this thing.
    Thinking outside the box is normal for me. Went inside the box once and got claustrophobic.
    Can't never did!
    Inventions weren't created by skeptics.
    Every generation will embrace amazing new discoveries, while part of the past gets lost.


  15. #45
    Join Date
    4th October 2014
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    897
    Quote Originally Posted by K'Tesh View Post
    ...Since I don't have the instructions, I had to make a few guesses. The motor mount, the launch lug's placement...
    I just put the engine mount tube flush with the bottom, which looks consistent with the catalog picture. If you offset the centering ring, then you could possibly stage this with the Booster 8, like the Excalibur and Groove Tube models. And hard to tell from the perspective in the picture on the launch pad, I think you could put the lug at one of the fin-body corners on the backside on one of the fins that straddle the name logo. You would not want the rod going through the middle of the logo. I really like your gold color, I did not do too much research and I just picked the UNIX Gold color #FFD700 as my color fill
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X11_color_names
    which darkens up a little after clear coating the cardstock printout, looks ok, but not as flashy as the original. I would nominate this as a candidate for a Classics bring back for the new Estes. While this may have been a bag of Estes parts with a Centuri facecard and chute, the Estes versions with similar nose/fins were released several years later. Since it was the last page of the last catalog, I like to think of this kit as the final Centuri rocket, the end of a era. Nice to hear that Estes is starting a new era and will still be around.

    Quote Originally Posted by K'Tesh View Post
    ...I'd pose that the gold for the decals would be a match for the Pontiac Firebird...
    I know, right? This has got to be inspired by The Bandit.


  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlenP View Post
    I just put the engine mount tube flush with the bottom, which looks consistent with the catalog picture. If you offset the centering ring, then you could possibly stage this with the Booster 8, like the Excalibur and Groove Tube models. And hard to tell from the perspective in the picture on the launch pad, I think you could put the lug at one of the fin-body corners on the backside on one of the fins that straddle the name logo. You would not want the rod going through the middle of the logo.
    Personally, I like the launch lug(s) to be closer to the CG of a rocket. The Dasher's instructions would have placed the lug (singular) in the middle of the bird decal, and I found no evidence in the decal for accommodating that. I moved my sim's LL to 2" ahead of the back of the body tube, which gave clearance to the decal, and would be closer (still quite a bit far though) from the CG given by the sim. I consider the LL side of the rocket to be the "back", and have no problem if the launch rod obscures a portion of the markings on the back, since that will typically only be an issue when the rocket is on the pad.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlenP View Post
    I really like your gold color, I did not do too much research and I just picked the UNIX Gold color #FFD700 as my color fill
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X11_color_names
    which darkens up a little after clear coating the cardstock printout, looks ok, but not as flashy as the original. I would nominate this as a candidate for a Classics bring back for the new Estes. While this may have been a bag of Estes parts with a Centuri facecard and chute, the Estes versions with similar nose/fins were released several years later. Since it was the last page of the last catalog, I like to think of this kit as the final Centuri rocket, the end of a era. Nice to hear that Estes is starting a new era and will still be around.
    The color I used was from the scan directly. I didn't do anything to the gold. I just cleaned up the edges around the decal to allow it to blend into the black, but basically, my sim's markings are from photographs of the actual thing (viewed through a plastic bag).

    I don't know if it's the final or not... I haven't done much time researching the Centuri line of products as they (mostly) predate my activity in the hobby. It's clearly one of the last of the line. Perhaps Estes or Semroc will bring it back one of these days. Semroc likely owns the name of the product, but Randy and Estes make agreements allowing such things from time to time (as did Carl).
    Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).


    NAR L1 Cert flight: Sheridan, Oregon, USA. Sept. 19, 2015. Flew Deep Space OFFl on an I357T-14A Blue Thunder

  17. #47
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    18th January 2009
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    109
    [QUOTE=lowga;1776912]I'm not familiar enough with Centuri part numbers to make an educated guess on the nose cone.

    Go to the www.semroc.com site (http://www.semroc.com/Store/Scripts/default.asp) then click on Master Cross Reference. You can look up just about any part for the major companies. Carl spent much time on this. Randy has kept the site running since it has so much information.

    Sheryl

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowga View Post
    I'm not familiar enough with Centuri part numbers to make an educated guess on the nose cone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheryl@semroc View Post
    Go to the www.semroc.com site (http://www.semroc.com/Store/Scripts/default.asp) then click on Master Cross Reference. You can look up just about any part for the major companies. Carl spent much time on this. Randy has kept the site running since it has so much information.

    Sheryl
    I did a search on the site... Regrettably, I found no info on the kit. http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/...rts.asp?ID=472
    Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).


    NAR L1 Cert flight: Sheridan, Oregon, USA. Sept. 19, 2015. Flew Deep Space OFFl on an I357T-14A Blue Thunder

  19. #49
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    Good suggestion about the decal color matching the Firebird auto. I could probably fix the decal art with that color for the gold. There should be enough photos of the car around to get a good idea. Of course we'll never know for sure how close Centuri came A contemporary photo of the rocket known to be shot on Kodachrome or Ektachrome slide film would go a long way toward resolving that. The car pic above gives RGB 202,188,120. I made an additional decal image with that color, which is much lighter than the decal scan. It should sync up to my Photos folder (link above) within a few hours.

    Dave Cook
    NAR 21953 L3 - TRA 1108 - DART San Diego

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