A Rocketry Scenario

Scenario:

Disclaimer: This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places, events, and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental. Really.

Bob decides to go to a launch. He reads their launch site rules before attending, and he finds out that they have a 10,000’ waiver, and that they don’t allow sparkie motors. This is quite explicit, and there are reasons given for the policy. There are plenty of other launches to attend where waivers are much higher, with no rules against sparkies, but for this particular site the rules are plain and everyone in this club understands (even if a few of them wish it was otherwise). But Bob wants to go to this launch. And Bob really likes sparkie motors, has a long history of flying them, flew them with his Dad when he was just a boy, and believes that they are perfectly safe and acceptable. He also has a rocket/motor (a sparkie motor) that sims to 20,000’ that he really wants to fly. So, he decides to launch what he wants, shows up with this rocket/motor, and lets it fly. (the RSO didn’t check too closely)

A few of the folks at the launch see this and call foul. The club president lets Bob know that this was not cool, and asks him please to not do it again. The rules are the rules, after all. Bob is kind of upset about not being allowed to launch as he pleases, but says he understands and everyone calms down. This was all very civil and calm.

So, the next weekend, Bob comes to the launch again. This time he does bring a different rocket/motor…..one that only sims to 16,000’ but is again a sparkie. It somehow gets by the RSO and Bob let’s another one rip. In his mind he just knows that if he flies these, others will see how great they are and will want to do the same. Plus he feels that he shouldn’t be bound by the rules. More folks are upset, the club officers and upset, and this time they are a bit more harsh with Bob. Some even shout a bit, and things get a little more heated. Bob is given a more stern warning from the club.

Next weekend’s launch, Bob shows up again, and yes he comes with a sparkie motor in a rocket that flies well above 10,000. The RSO catches it and does not allow him to fly. He can fly another rocket (under 10k) or another motor (non sparkie) but he’s not allowed to fly that one. Bob gets upset about this, and feels that he is being targeted unfairly. He says that anyone that’s upset about the rocket/motor that he wants to fly is not much of a rocketeer, and that they are oppressing him.

So Bob stays home the next couple of weekends.

But he comes back to another launch a bit later, and yep, he brings a high altitude sparkie to fly. Some folks by now are tired of him pushing this line and get in his face a bit about it. A couple even make fun of him for simply not getting it. One ridicules him for being such a “hardcore” flyer that thinks he’s so much better than everyone else that he doesn’t have to play by the rules. He calls them all sissy rocketeers. The RSO again won’t let him fly, but this time Bob is prepared. He sets up his own launch rail and fires it off himself. High altitude, big and sparkie. A few folks are pissed off, and this time things get even more heated. Shouting, accusations, threats……yuck, it starts to get ugly.

Bob sees it that he’s being oppressed. He feels that the rules don’t apply to him and that anyone who has issue with it is wrong. He thinks that he should be free to fly as he wants, when he wants, and what he wants. He’s an American after all, and this is a free country. In his mind, anyone who thinks otherwise is not a real rocketeer, and he needs to show them how it’s done.

So, Bob continues to come to these launches, continues to launch or try to launch high altitude sparkie flights, and tries to find all kinds of sneaky ways to justify it or to bypass the rules. Or, most of the time, he just ignores the rules and flies as he pleases.

So, the question(s) is/are:

Is Bob basically being a jerk, or should he be allowed to continue doing this?

Or conversely, are the folks at this launch treating him unfairly, singling him out and targeting him for his ways, and are they in the wrong when they call him on it (even when they frustratingly get pushed to the point of shouting, ridiculing, or otherwise acting like jerks themselves)?


A plea and a pledge:
The plea -- Please let’s try to keep this thread civil, honest, and respectful. Bob is fictional, and this scenario is just that; a scenario. No personal attacks, no hostility, no ugliness. Please? (and yes, I know that some of you are thinking that’s pretty rich coming from me, but still). I know that some of you might think that this is a thinly disguised attack on someone and that you think you know who it is. You are of course free to think whatever you want, but I'll tell you that you are most likely wrong. Take that however you want.
The pledge -- I myself pledge to fully stay out of it from this point forward. This initial post will be my only one in this thread. I’m sincerely interested in what you all have to say about this, but I’ll keep my own mouth shut from here on…….with one last bit as an exception, which is this:

I really like high altitude flights, and I think sparkie motors are way cool. Honestly I do.

Discuss.

s6

Bob should be removed for being the real jerk, not the people calling him out for it.

Bob needs to take up stamp collecting.

Bob is going to cost the club he WAS flying with their waiver, and is being a jerk.

Since he is violating the waiver he is risking the FAA shutting down the flying completely.
It is not stated specifically why the club has a rule against sparkies, but I have heard of various landowners not wanting them used for concern on starting a fire.
So Bob is also risking getting the landowner upset and having the launch site taken away.

Either way, he could lose the ability to fly there and causing everyone else to also lose the ability to fly there as well.

The fact that he is aware and continues to do so against the rules does make him a "jerk".
Especially since it was stated there are other launch sites with both higher waivers and will allow sparkies, to continue to come and purposely break the rules and risk everyone's ability to fly definitely makes him a jerk.

If he doesn't like the rules go to another launch that fits what he wants to fly.

Steven said:

Bob should be removed for being the real jerk, not the people calling him out for it.

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But we know that's not happening.

Remove Bob, or encourage him to fly elsewhere, so you don't lose your flying privileges (via FAA or whoever you have over there).

As for sparkies, they are banned in some locations due to fire risk for good reason. Again send him elsewhere or risk losing your flying field and/or loss of property or lives.

Sounds like he is a slow learner in this work of fiction.

Forgot to mention. I like high-altitude flights, sparkies not so much (they cost energy and altitude). I choose a club to fly in that allows the higher altitude flights within their waiver.

Bob would have flown the second time, but not the third. Bob wouldn't be back to launch with that club, ever again. Bye bye, Bob.

And the people sitting RSO would hear about watching for sparkies and weight/size/impulse limits to stay under the waiver.

Tell Bob the USAF Air National Gaurd is not Rent-A-Cop and armed F-16 Falcons with live ordinance hate airspace busting. Call up the NG Tac fighter wing and get them to fly real low and real fast once after one of Bob's little airspace violations. I bet Bob won't fly rockets again. Maybe they'll BRRRTTT his car too... He could call all state and ask for claim of "Rotary Vulcan" damage by fighter jet. Quadruple Sevens on a transponder bro. That always gets em' pissed. Just run for the hills cuz happy thoughts don't stop BRRT when they get pissy. Cuz the inspector in a blue FAA jacket or a FBI unmarked squadcar isn't uh real enough for Bob to f*** off and fly right. The Air Gaurd shall BRRRTT Bob's car for repeat offenses here. Claim Bob has a MANPADS in the car, give coordinates of Bob's car to Tac Ops and request CAS, then run like no tomorrow cuz GBU-12 gonna GBU a big ol' crater. This isn't your average speeder ticket yo. It's a national airspace system and a direct threat to national security.

Bob was banned from attending launches after his 2nd similar stunt in NE Florida!

The theoretical club should have, or create a way of dealing with such problems, and *this part is critical* documenting actions taken (anf just as important, actually TAKING the actions).

People mess up. Lord, please forgive me, I've done it a lot. People should be given a second chance. But repeated patterns of bad behavior/rule breaking cannot go unnoticed.

Just as a recommendation, for the theoretical club, and the equally theoretical Bob.

First infraction, verbal warning, given a written copy of rules

Second infraction (for same or similar offense), written warning, require signed statement that person understands rules that were broken, and recognizes that another infraction can result in removal from club
Third infraction, removal from club, written notice that the individual will not be welcome back, launch privileges revoked.
Fourth infraction, why was he even allowed to launch after three warnings? Give written warning not to return on pain of criminal trespassing charges.

Yeah, number 4 is harsh, but he's putting the club at criminal and civil liability. He clearly doesn't think the rules apply to him. I've had similar circumstances come up in real life, and in discussions with friends. There has to be documented policy about how to deal with the circumstances. You can't let stuff slide because someone is otherwise a "good guy". Documentation of policy and documentation of actions taken is critical in today's litigeous society. You have to protect yourself. If it wasn't documented, it didn't happen.

Glad this was all in theory.

And a silly thought as a follow-up to the theoretical problem. If sparky motors are banned, does this apply to ALL sparky motors, or only single stage/booster motors? Would an upper stage sparky be allowed?

Just in theory, mind you. I don't think I'll ever own/launch a sparky motor, ever.

wow, you hypothetical guys fly every theoretical week-end! cool!!

No, Bob is being a jerk, and should be spoken to / banned. Sadly, easier said then done. And usually enacts additional club rules & regs based on his actions which others at the field probably did / understood already, without being told... And / or that inspections / reports / documents are now required for certain flights..


This type of person helped me coin a phrase, a saying, a life lesson:

I remember working with a real jerk. Started off a s nice guy, but quickly his true colours & attitude came out. A jerk a [major] hole in the posterior region. He was how he was, seemingly oblivious to the fact that he was, his actions were .. unpleasant. How should I tell him? Would he take my talking to him in a constructive way? Would he change? Probably not. So, I thought.. "How do you tell an A---le he's an A--le? He doesn't care. And he doesn't think he is.. And why should he change his ways.. "

When I read the scenario I can't help but feel I am being led to an opinion. I suspect that this hypothetical scenario, once it has enough mass moving in the intended direction, will be swapped out for a "real" world scenario.

At every theoretical club I’ve ever flown at, if there is a ban on sparkies or skidmarks, it’s pretty generally known what the reason is (grass fire hazard the huge majority of the time) so there’s no particular reason for post mortem debates over the
merits.

And when people intentionally bust waiver and impulse limits, that’s a one-strike and out situation at pretty much any field, Real or hypothetical, for exactly the reason everybody else has cited: you’re risking an FAA shutdown of your whole field and pretty much deep sixing your chances for future waivers.

So the answer is, s****w ‘em. Play by the rules or go home.

all I know is that when Bob went to retrieve his rockets, All 4 of his tires would have the air let of out of them.

Bobs call at this point.. chase the rocket, or invest his time pumping up his tires.

The AIR in Bobs tires also has an American right to be "free"

I wonder if every time Bob "rises" from bed if he plans on ignoring the rules or does "He" feel justified because he knows his opinion is the true one (in his mind anyway).

Raises a question: since the FAA regs are federal law, then Bob is committing a criminal act, no? So the club could conceivably call the FBI and invite them to the next launch, and if Bob does his thing, he gets escorted off the field in handcuffs.

Sorry, but anyone who would feel sympathy for Bob and allow him to continue his lawbreaking should be removed from the club as well. Period.

I can promise you that Bob would not be launching at MDRA under these conditions.

CPUTommy said:

all I know is that when Bob went to retrieve his rockets, All 4 of his tires would have the air let of out of them.

Bobs call at this point.. chase the rocket, or invest his time pumping up his tires.

The AIR in Bobs tires also has an American right to be "free"

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Yeah, then Bob starts letting air out of other people's tires and now you have a war on your hands. Not good for the club. Bob's membership is revoked and he flies no more. If he continues to show up and cause trouble, invite the police.

Bat-mite said:

Yeah, then Bob starts letting air out of other people's tires and now you have a war on your hands. Not good for the club. Bob's membership is revoked and he flies no more. If he continues to show up and cause trouble, invite the police.

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Ive ran into a few "bobs" in my lifetime.. None of them have the moral fortitude to escalate the issue once they get put in a personal position. And being the one who applies such restraints, Ive never seemed to have a problem once the jewelry comes out. These "Bobs" need to be put in a position where the decision they make is white or black... Not Grey...

Bob may feel justified doing what HE is doing, but when someone else does the same thing, Bobs seem to disappear with resentments and cowardliness.

Im still for flattening bobs tires, After the 2nd time he will either leave his rocket or never show up again...

I'm confused by the original question. As presented in the hypothetical scenario, there can be no real debate that Bob is being a jerk. S6, what are you looking to learn here?

Me ? Im not looking to learn anything..

Its BOB who needs a few lessons...

Hypothetically.

I was inquiring of the OP.

Hypothetically the Prefect/Club officer should tell this Bob that by violating the rules he is no longer allowed to fly for the day, and should he do something like this at another launch he may not be welcome back ever.

The above said, I get the feeling this fictitious story has little to do with waivers and sparkles. I think it has more to do with repeated violations of the forum rules regarding religious and political speech by a certain Bob.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

neil_w said:

I'm confused by the original question. As presented in the hypothetical scenario, there can be no real debate that Bob is being a jerk. S6, what are you looking to learn here?

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Agree. The scenario is written such that there is "no other conclusion" that Bob is a jerk

markkoelsch said:

I get the feeling this fictitious story has little to do with waivers and sparkles. I think it has more to do with repeated violations of the forum rules regarding religious and political speech by a certain Bob.

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That sounds plausible.

markkoelsch said:

I get the feeling this fictitious story has little to do with waivers and sparkles. I think it has more to do with repeated violations of the forum rules regarding religious and political speech by a certain Bob.

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Bingo!

Hmm, then a big difference there is one of federally protected free speech vs. federally prohibited violation of FAA rules. Not a good analogy.

Bat-mite said:

Hmm, then a big difference there is one of federally protected free speech vs. federally prohibited violation of FAA rules. Not a good analogy.

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There is no federally protected free speech on a private forum.

neil_w said:

There is no federally protected free speech on a private forum.

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I know that's what we all say and think, but if a case went all the way to the Supreme Court, I'm not so sure what the outcome would be.

Anyway, in the scenario, Bob is being criticized for two things: breaking the club rules, and violating federal law. While we all agree that Bob is being an anti-social jerk for violating the club rules, there is the much larger issue of FAA-controlled airspace and FAR regulations. TRF doesn't have any such federally mandated regulations. And one could make a case that TRF's "no religion" rules are a violation of the First Amendment. That would be up to a judge to decide, were someone to push it.