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  1. #1
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    Airstart assistance. Low current starters. CTI 24mm

    I have been ground testing some starters for my Viper IV airstart flight and have gotten no where fast. My plan was to airstart two 24/40 motors that I turned into single use.

    I know there are some older posts discussing some of this, but things change. Vendors and items come and go. Just seeing what is available now.

    So now I am looking into making my own starters. I have some Nichrome wire (40AWG I think) and several thousand feet of CAT5 cable (22 AWG?). While this cable will work for some larger motors, it is a tight fit in the small 24/40 motors, in particular the D9W motors. I also have some Ruby Fluid flux and capabilities to solder my wires if need be.

    I have considered using CTI seeing how their hardware is fairly inexpensive in this size. I can get two sets of hardware for roughly the same price of one AT 24/40. But the reloads are stupid expensive for something that size. But I am well aware this isn't a cheap hobby, and clustering/airstarts isn't exactly the way to go to save money anyway.

    So what I need help with:

    A good source for RELIABLE, LOW CURRENT pyrogen dip. I know about FireFox and they have lots of options but I don't really know what I am looking at/for. I see in some instances they suggest a second dip of a different mix. http://www.firefox-fx.com/rocketry.htm Any help here will be great! Feel free to tell me exactly which kit(s) I need to airstart two D9W motors.

    What size (shooter) wire works well for these small motors? Even FirstFire Minis are tight but they will work. I may can get by with the CAT5 but it is a bit tight. 26 AWG or 32 AWG maybe. Does it have to be solid wire or can it be stranded?

    Do the CTI 24mm motors use low current starters like their big brothers? And will 2 light readily and reliably on a 9 volt battery using a RRC3? I have never lit a CTI of any size but heard they are pretty easy to light. It is the more expensive route but if I must, I must.

    Any tried and true methods. I have a good write up from a fellow TRFer but acquiring all the separate chemicals and mixing it all isn't something I want to do ATM, nor do I have time for.
    From researching I have deduced:
    Magnelite is for high current systems.
    Quickburst is for high current systems.
    Skylighter is pretty much E-matches.
    Firstfire Mini and the smallest Wildman starters are high current.

    AND: This guy here uses milled black powder and homemade nitrocellulose lacquer. Both of which I have access to. Seems to me BP would simply flash (and does so in his video) and not light the motor reliably. Or does the NC lacquer modify the burn somehow? Possibly add magnesium powder or something to the BP mixture?

    If anyone has some reliable starters made up and is willing and able to ship them LEGALLY, well that would be just swell. I could pay for them or work out some sort of trade maybe.
    If you don't feel like sharing on the boards, PM me and I will provide my email or cell number for text messages.
    Any and all advice is welcome as usual. I need to fly this Viper!!

    Thanks folks,
    Mikey D

    Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
    TRA #16513
    Level 1: Danger Close ---AT H123W to 1240'--- 29 OCT 2016
    Level 2: Binder Design Tyrannosaur ---AT J315R to 2148'--- 30 SEP 2017

  2. #2
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    I use the Firefox Non-conductive primer dip with the H3 overcoating. The match is a 40 gauge nichrome bridge wire wrapped on 30 gauge wire wrap wire, they light with a 9 volt battery.

    Rich

    NAR# 99154

    L3-4x upscale Estes Cherokee-D- AT M1297W 5/28/2016 http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...r-rharshberger

    TriCities Rocketeers NAR section# 736 http://www.tricitiesrocketeers.org/

  3. #3
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    Thanks Rich. That's pretty much what I was after. Will a 9 volt fire 2 in parallel? That's gonna be the deal breaker.
    Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
    TRA #16513
    Level 1: Danger Close ---AT H123W to 1240'--- 29 OCT 2016
    Level 2: Binder Design Tyrannosaur ---AT J315R to 2148'--- 30 SEP 2017

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyDSlagle View Post
    Thanks Rich. That's pretty much what I was after. Will a 9 volt fire 2 in parallel? That's gonna be the deal breaker.
    I haven't tried two in parallel, but I can this evening, but it will be 9pm Pacific or so. I make them a hundred or so at a time.
    Rich

    NAR# 99154

    L3-4x upscale Estes Cherokee-D- AT M1297W 5/28/2016 http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...r-rharshberger

    TriCities Rocketeers NAR section# 736 http://www.tricitiesrocketeers.org/

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    SE Wisconsin
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    What's your measure of 'low current'. I can fire a Firewire Mini with a 200mAh 20C 2S lipo battery (via an eggtimer Quantum) that won't make an Estes Pro Series II sonic igniter even smoke. The Firewire doesn't even hesitate.

    A 300mAh 35C 2S lipo makes the Sonic igniter snap, crack and flare. I haven't tried 2 in parallel.
    Charles McGonegal
    Ciderwright at AeppelTreow Winery & Distillery
    www.appletrue.com
    NAR #103560 L1 6/25/17 Estes Leviathan CTI H175-SS
    Ad Astra Tabernamque!

  6. #6
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    So Cal (ROC, TRASD, SCRA)
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    I've used the Estes Pro Sonic II igniters with a small 2S LiPo (180 mAH)... they'll fit in the slot in an AT 24/40 load.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rharshberger View Post
    I haven't tried two in parallel, but I can this evening, but it will be 9pm Pacific or so. I make them a hundred or so at a time.
    Thanks. That will be a huge help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles_McG View Post
    What's your measure of 'low current'. I can fire a Firewire Mini with a 200mAh 20C 2S lipo battery (via an eggtimer Quantum) that won't make an Estes Pro Series II sonic igniter even smoke. The Firewire doesn't even hesitate.

    A 300mAh 35C 2S lipo makes the Sonic igniter snap, crack and flare. I haven't tried 2 in parallel.
    Low current as in can fire 2 in parallel from a standard 9 volt, so about 1 to 2 amps.
    If I use a LiPo I'll have to wire the starters in series, which I don't trust,l. Two starters in parallel on a LiPo could fry my RRC3. LiPos are out for this exercise. I did fire two First Fire minis in series with one of my 2S LiPos but it took a while and one fired a good second or so after the first.
    I'm not familiar with Firewire.

    Quote Originally Posted by cerving View Post
    I've used the Estes Pro Sonic II igniters with a small 2S LiPo (180 mAH)... they'll fit in the slot in an AT 24/40 load.
    Yeah I had a fellow flyer try some out, still won't fire two using the 9 volt.

    I appreciate the input guys. I am taking notes for future use. But for this particular setup, I have to be able to fire 2 starters in parallel using a standard 9 volt. But keep the ideas coming, any knowledge will only help down the road.

    Another option would be a circuit that uses the AUX channel to switch a high current channel. I know MOSFETS can be used for this, but I don't how to design a circuit for such things.
    Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
    TRA #16513
    Level 1: Danger Close ---AT H123W to 1240'--- 29 OCT 2016
    Level 2: Binder Design Tyrannosaur ---AT J315R to 2148'--- 30 SEP 2017

  8. #8
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    SE Wisconsin
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    Firewire = typo. I meant FirstFire Mini.
    Charles McGonegal
    Ciderwright at AeppelTreow Winery & Distillery
    www.appletrue.com
    NAR #103560 L1 6/25/17 Estes Leviathan CTI H175-SS
    Ad Astra Tabernamque!

  9. #9
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    Is the RRC3 really the limiting factor? Cris, have I gotten spoiled by starting out with sturdy eggtimers?

    How about getting a 1 ohm, 5-10W resistor from amazon and putting it in series with the igniters in parallel - and going back to the Lipo. Make use of the full 5A rating on the RRC3 instead of trying to find 1A starters.
    Charles McGonegal
    Ciderwright at AeppelTreow Winery & Distillery
    www.appletrue.com
    NAR #103560 L1 6/25/17 Estes Leviathan CTI H175-SS
    Ad Astra Tabernamque!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
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    2,122
    Buy e-match heads, solder them to shooters wire or thin magnet wire and then dip in your favorite pyrogen. Nearly all e-matches I've made will fire off from a AA battery. Check to see if they'll fit through the narrow throat of your motor before you get to the launch.
    Aaron Head
    NAR 83209 L2

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles_McG View Post
    Firewire = typo. I meant FirstFire Mini.
    Gotcha. Thought so, just wasn't sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles_McG View Post
    Is the RRC3 really the limiting factor? Cris, have I gotten spoiled by starting out with sturdy eggtimers?

    How about getting a 1 ohm, 5-10W resistor from amazon and putting it in series with the igniters in parallel - and going back to the Lipo. Make use of the full 5A rating on the RRC3 instead of trying to find 1A starters.
    I thought of using a resistor but my LiPos are 300 MaH, 30C and they will not fire First Fire Minis in parallel, so a resistor wouldn't help. Two 5A starters in parallel will require/pull 10A...right? Hence needing 2A, or 2.5A if ya will, or smaller.

    I built and Eggtimer for this rocket before I had the RRC3. It won't fit in the bay, especially with the AUX board or I would be using it. I can redesign my bay but I'd rather not. Would still need lower current starters or larger batteries than I have now.

    Quote Originally Posted by heada View Post
    Buy e-match heads, solder them to shooters wire or thin magnet wire and then dip in your favorite pyrogen. Nearly all e-matches I've made will fire off from a AA battery. Check to see if they'll fit through the narrow throat of your motor before you get to the launch.
    E-matches are too big. The throat is just large enough for two strands of 22AWG wire. It's small. And the Pyrogen part. That's one of the reasons I am here, to find me a pyrogen. But thanks for chiming in.
    Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
    TRA #16513
    Level 1: Danger Close ---AT H123W to 1240'--- 29 OCT 2016
    Level 2: Binder Design Tyrannosaur ---AT J315R to 2148'--- 30 SEP 2017

  12. #12
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    Aaron Head
    NAR 83209 L2

  13. #13
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    SE Wisconsin
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    Hmmm, I just tried my Quantum on a 300mAh, 45C lipo with 2 Sonic igniters. No go. I'll have to keep that in mind.
    Cris does recommend a bigger lipo - that's just the biggest one -I- happen to have.
    Charles McGonegal
    Ciderwright at AeppelTreow Winery & Distillery
    www.appletrue.com
    NAR #103560 L1 6/25/17 Estes Leviathan CTI H175-SS
    Ad Astra Tabernamque!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    26th November 2009
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    5,214
    Errrr, ummmm. I think it's o.k. to talk about commercially available stuff but I'd avoid recipes of components out in the open forum outside of the Research forum.

    That said, I spent several years in the dark ages ("lawsuit times") perfecting a home made match in case the world of rocketry "lost" the suit and it all of a sudden became incredibly harder to get what we needed to fly. Take my word for it, it's not worth the effort, time and the safety of working with the reagents to make one's own ematches. I found at least 10 years ago, the commercially available "heads" weren't worth "diddly squat and all the (good ones) went to the commercial makers in China. That might have changed. If one needs something, attend a sponsored launch, ask around, keep showing up and someone will help you out. Like they say "pay forward" but do it in 4f black powder. Film canisters are good.

    My Dad started a Blueprint shop in the late '50's (I worked there in late '66 until I went to grad school in '78 during the summers. Child labor laws dont' apply to a family business!! Dad diversified it and sent it on it's way into nameplate and panel stuff: http://www.nptec.com/

    Anywho, the metal nameplate thing started with a single small metal shear along with all the photo-chemical stuff the might lead to my earlier "demise from this life" that's out and the desktop shear is preserved in my garage currently. Used it in my ematch endeavor to cut the blanks. Got 'em to work but not worth the trouble. Yeah, I wound my blanks from "scratch"!

    So, go to launches, fire what low powered rocketry stuff you have and asked around about high powered stuff. Keep showing up and someone
    will take you under their wing and I still cherish my experience to this day.

    Kurt Savegnago

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyDSlagle View Post
    Thanks Rich. That's pretty much what I was after. Will a 9 volt fire 2 in parallel? That's gonna be the deal breaker.
    Quote Originally Posted by rharshberger View Post
    I haven't tried two in parallel, but I can this evening, but it will be 9pm Pacific or so. I make them a hundred or so at a time.
    Okay, I have now tested my small diameter igniters made with 40 gauge nichrome, a 9 volt will fire two igniters wired in parallel, it took about a half a second to one second for both to fire.
    Rich

    NAR# 99154

    L3-4x upscale Estes Cherokee-D- AT M1297W 5/28/2016 http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...r-rharshberger

    TriCities Rocketeers NAR section# 736 http://www.tricitiesrocketeers.org/

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by heada View Post
    I've looked at them before. Says on the website for 12 volts systems at 6 amps. Though I would think the amperage is dictated by the bridge wire. But I am not willing to risk buying it and then it not work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles_McG View Post
    Hmmm, I just tried my Quantum on a 300mAh, 45C lipo with 2 Sonic igniters. No go. I'll have to keep that in mind.
    Cris does recommend a bigger lipo - that's just the biggest one -I- happen to have.
    Good to know. Thanks for going through the trouble testing them.


    Quote Originally Posted by ksaves2 View Post
    Errrr, ummmm. I think it's o.k. to talk about commercially available stuff but I'd avoid recipes of components out in the open forum outside of the Research forum.

    That said, I spent several years in the dark ages ("lawsuit times") perfecting a home made match in case the world of rocketry "lost" the suit and it all of a sudden became incredibly harder to get what we needed to fly. Take my word for it, it's not worth the effort, time and the safety of working with the reagents to make one's own ematches. I found at least 10 years ago, the commercially available "heads" weren't worth "diddly squat and all the (good ones) went to the commercial makers in China. That might have changed. If one needs something, attend a sponsored launch, ask around, keep showing up and someone will help you out. Like they say "pay forward" but do it in 4f black powder. Film canisters are good.

    My Dad started a Blueprint shop in the late '50's (I worked there in late '66 until I went to grad school in '78 during the summers. Child labor laws dont' apply to a family business!! Dad diversified it and sent it on it's way into nameplate and panel stuff: http://www.nptec.com/

    Anywho, the metal nameplate thing started with a single small metal shear along with all the photo-chemical stuff the might lead to my earlier "demise from this life" that's out and the desktop shear is preserved in my garage currently. Used it in my ematch endeavor to cut the blanks. Got 'em to work but not worth the trouble. Yeah, I wound my blanks from "scratch"!

    So, go to launches, fire what low powered rocketry stuff you have and asked around about high powered stuff. Keep showing up and someone
    will take you under their wing and I still cherish my experience to this day.

    Kurt Savegnago
    Not sure we are on the same page here Kurt. I am asking about air starting motors, not dual deployment and e-matches. I got dual deploy covered and our onsite vendor sells e-matches if I ever need any. Just about everything I fly uses electronic deployment. And in this case, these are low power motors: Ds and Es. Only difference is I need to light two in the air.

    I don't need to ask around about high power, I am already into high power. I do ask about higher power though, and EX motors; and other stuff I don't fully comprehend. If I waited for someone to take me under their wing, I may never fly clusters or air starts. Haven't seen any clusters at our launches and only one 2 stage air start.


    Quote Originally Posted by rharshberger View Post
    Okay, I have now tested my small diameter igniters made with 40 gauge nichrome, a 9 volt will fire two igniters wired in parallel, it took about a half a second to one second for both to fire.
    Awesome. Thanks a ton. This may be the best route.
    Either way, doesn't look like the Viper will fly at our launch this month unless I just do straight cluster with no air starts. I need to source the materials and get set up to make the things.
    Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
    TRA #16513
    Level 1: Danger Close ---AT H123W to 1240'--- 29 OCT 2016
    Level 2: Binder Design Tyrannosaur ---AT J315R to 2148'--- 30 SEP 2017

  17. #17
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
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    When I pointed to Mangelite, I was meaning the MF-12 kit. It is designed as a low current pyrogen for e-match types.

    https://www.rocketflite.com/store/in...&product_id=57

    It has an all-fire rating of 1.6A@1.5V (2.4W) If you have your own lead/bridge-wire setup, you could use this pyrogen. https://www.rocketflite.com/images/MF12.wmv

    Their CMF-12 might be the solution you're looking for. 0.037" diameter pre-assembled igniters (including bridgewires) that have an all-fire rating of 2.3A@6V (13.8W)

    I've had very good luck with the kits from them. I've ignited everything from 18mm APCP EX motors to stubborn 75MM AMW motors.
    Aaron Head
    NAR 83209 L2

  18. #18
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    Interesting. A little pricey though.

    They say those cmf kits are low current but that pyrogen mix is not recommended for igniters:
    "NOTE: The MF-KIT should only be used for making electric matches including "chip type" e-matches. We DO NOT recommend making rocket motor igniters with this pyrogen"

    Have you used it for airstarts or just high current ground units?
    Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
    TRA #16513
    Level 1: Danger Close ---AT H123W to 1240'--- 29 OCT 2016
    Level 2: Binder Design Tyrannosaur ---AT J315R to 2148'--- 30 SEP 2017

  19. #19
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
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    2,122
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyDSlagle View Post
    Interesting. A little pricey though.

    They say those cmf kits are low current but that pyrogen mix is not recommended for igniters:
    "NOTE: The MF-KIT should only be used for making electric matches including "chip type" e-matches. We DO NOT recommend making rocket motor igniters with this pyrogen"

    Have you used it for airstarts or just high current ground units?
    I've only used it on e-matches but I've used them for air-starts, ejections (apogee and main) and ground igniting motors that I've coated the top grain with a different pyrogen.

    I think the concern is that the high current/high voltage of a ground based system will blow the bridgewire before it has a chance to start the pyrogen. A low energy system (flight computer, etc.) should give the bridgewire more time to start the pyrogen.

    Give them a call/email, explain what you want to do and your limitations and see what they can do for you. (I'm not affiliated with them in any way, just a long-term happy customer)
    Aaron Head
    NAR 83209 L2

  20. #20
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    Ahh. Okay. I never looked at it that way. I have them on my list and will shoot them an email.
    I have stuff on the way to mix my own pyrogen; and some smaller wire for the shooters wire. I'm out about 25 bucks so far, including new strippers to strip 30 AWG.

    Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
    TRA #16513
    Level 1: Danger Close ---AT H123W to 1240'--- 29 OCT 2016
    Level 2: Binder Design Tyrannosaur ---AT J315R to 2148'--- 30 SEP 2017

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