L3 achieved after a difficult and dangerous recovery in swamp

Bat-mite said:

For my tracking, I use a BRB900, which requires no cell service. Locks onto GPS satellites. It comes with a transmitter and receiver, about $310 total. Receiver gives coordinates.

To walk out to the rocket, I use a cheap, old Magellan hiker's GPS. Input the coordinates from the BRB receiver, select your favorite interface, and walk to the rocket. I like the interface that looks like a road. As long as you stay on the "road," you are walking at your rocket. I got the Magellan on eBay for $20.

That $330 will feel like nothing when I launch my Formula 200, which now has about $1700 in it after the cato, on an N to 8300' at Red Glare.

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The BRB is similar to the Telemetrum in that both work without cell service. There are a few differences between the BRB and the Telemetrum, for example: 1) Telemetrum is a dual deployment altimeter as well as a GPS transmitter, and 2) Telemetrum requires a ham license. On the receive side, the Telemetrum uses AltBT, a GPS receiver and Bluetooth transmitter, which connects via Bluetooth to a cell phone app that provides audio and visual tracking info. The BRB receiver provides an LED readout of the latitude and longitude, which you then can enter into a phone or free-standing GPS device such as the Magellan. Both systems work well, and if a Magellan is only $20 I may pick one up on eBay to use as a backup, thanks for the tip. Of course, for either system to lead you to the rocket, the phone/Magellan/other device must be able to accurately detect the position where you are standing. That's where my phone GPS let me down. The Telemetrum and my backup cellular tracker both worked exactly as they should but the phone GPS failed, perhaps because of the heavy trees or perhaps for some other unknown reason.

MikeyDSlagle said:

there has to be a time restriction somewhere, though I haven't seen one.

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Wouldn't a time limit create safety issues? For example, if anyone had said I would fail unless I recovered the rocket by the end of the day, I might have been tempted to stay in the swamp longer to keep trying to find it. What's the harm of allowing a rocket to remain unrecovered for a few days until it can be safely retrieved and inspected?

billdz said:

Wouldn't a time limit create safety issues?

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I agree, I've never heard of any kind of time limit. Cert evaluations are up to the judgement of the TAPs. FWIW, IMHO Bill has been completely open and aboveboard with all of the specifics of his flight, and if I were his TAP I'd approve the flight without reservation.

billdz said:

Wouldn't a time limit create safety issues? For example, if anyone had said I would fail unless I recovered the rocket by the end of the day, I might have been tempted to stay in the swamp longer to keep trying to find it. What's the harm of allowing a rocket to remain unrecovered for a few days until it can be safely retrieved and inspected?

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No harm..if a TAP had seen the rocket in its unrecovered state, before a third party was involved. The guidelines doesn't even say the rocket has to be recovered. It can be inspected in place be it a tree, power line, Velociraptor pen, whatever as long as it is in the recovery area. After that it can hang there until it rots and you go on flying L3 motors. I do not disagree with that. Outside looking in, there are things that seem outta place, or could be taken as questionable. Easy for us to draw conclusions without having all the details, which is why I am not saying you do not deserve the cert. I think the TAP should have had eyes on the rocket before the third party retrieved it, but one wouldn't expect a non rocketeer to go fetch a TAP so he could see a rocket hanging in a tree. Either way, it's not my place to determine one way or the other, its the TAPs, and he/she says your GTG.

The question is what is the time frame for an unverified recovery to be verified? A week? A month? How many people can handle a rocket before the TAP inspects it? Take it home first?

"No, that's not 5 minute epoxy in my pocket" lol.

MikeyDSlagle said:

No harm..if a TAP had seen the rocket in its unrecovered state, before a third party was involved. The guidelines doesn't even say the rocket has to be recovered. It can be inspected in place be it a tree, power line, Velociraptor pen, whatever as long as it is in the recovery area. After that it can hang there until it rots and you go on flying L3 motors. I do not disagree with that. Outside looking in, there are things that seem outta place, or could be taken as questionable. Easy for us to draw conclusions without having all the details, which is why I am not saying you do not deserve the cert. I think the TAP should have had eyes on the rocket before the third party retrieved it, but one wouldn't expect a non rocketeer to go fetch a TAP so he could see a rocket hanging in a tree. Either way, it's not my place to determine one way or the other, its the TAPs, and he/she says your GTG.

The question is what is the time frame for an unverified recovery to be verified? A week? A month? How many people can handle a rocket before the TAP inspects it? Take it home first?

"No, that's not 5 minute epoxy in my pocket" lol.

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Minor repairs are permissible. Damage from dragging is permissible. No time frame is specified before the rocket is presented to the TAP, but if the TAP had any reason to doubt that the rocket being presented is as it was found, he or she could disqualify the flight. There is a requirement that a TAP must observe the rocket descend in a stabilized manner controlled by the recovery system. That doesn’t mean they must see the entire descent and data files from altimeters can serve to supplement that observation.
We depend greatly on the judgement of our TAPs and for good reason.
The flight is just one part of the certification. By the time the flight happens TAPs usually know whether the person attempting certification is capable or not.
It’s pretty disheartening to certify only to have people question the validity of the process.

Billdz, congratulations on a successful cert flight.
Steve


Steve Shannon

Lost is a function of effort, or lack of it. Good job on the recovery. Congrats on the L3.


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Steve Shannon said:

Minor repairs are permissible. Damage from dragging is permissible. No time frame is specified before the rocket is presented to the TAP, but if the TAP had any reason to doubt that the rocket being presented is as it was found, he or she could disqualify the flight. There is a requirement that a TAP must observe the rocket descend in a stabilized manner controlled by the recovery system. That doesn’t mean they must see the entire descent and data files from altimeters can serve to supplement that observation.
We depend greatly on the judgement of our TAPs and for good reason.
The flight is just one part of the certification. By the time the flight happens TAPs usually know whether the person attempting certification is capable or not.
It’s pretty disheartening to certify only to have people question the validity of the process.

Billdz, congratulations on a successful cert flight.
Steve


Steve Shannon

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Steve,
I agree that the TAPs SHOULD know whether the person is capable. Just looking at the OP's sig: less than a year from level 0 to level 3. Can a TAP honestly judge a person's skills in that short amount of time? Seems like an awful lot of building and flying HPR. Aside from that, the skill was proved when it ascended and descended as it should. It can't always be helped when the things land in trees or on power lines, which is why the inspect in place rule is there. However, just because a person has skill to build a vehicle capable of L3 doesn't make them honest. The rocket could have been recovered outside the recovery area and no one would know...perhaps not even the flier for that matter. Only the third party. Not saying that is the case here, just an example.

I am not questioning the validity of the OP's certification; or of the process. I am sorry that it comes off that way. The TAP says he is good, he is good. I never said otherwise.

The epoxy comment was a joke. Someone once made a joke about sneaking some out to their recovery in the event they had to reattach a fin. I forget some folks here have no sense of humor.

Bildz,
Sorry for taking from your moment of acquiring your L3. No offense or harm intended. I will quietly go now.

MikeyDSlagle said:

Steve,
I agree that the TAPs SHOULD know whether the person is capable. Just looking at the OP's sig: less than a year from level 0 to level 3. Can a TAP honestly judge a person's skills in that short amount of time? Seems like an awful lot of building and flying HPR. Aside from that, the skill was proved when it ascended and descended as it should. It can't always be helped when the things land in trees or on power lines, which is why the inspect in place rule is there. However, just because a person has skill to build a vehicle capable of L3 doesn't make them honest. The rocket could have been recovered outside the recovery area and no one would know...perhaps not even the flier for that matter. Only the third party. Not saying that is the case here, just an example.

I am not questioning the validity of the OP's certification; or of the process. I am sorry that it comes off that way. The TAP says he is good, he is good. I never said otherwise.

The epoxy comment was a joke. Someone once made a joke about sneaking some out to their recovery in the event they had to reattach a fin. I forget some folks here have no sense of humor.

Bildz,
Sorry for taking from your moment of acquiring your L3. No offense or harm intended. I will quietly go now.

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Let me clarify. I think it’s healthy to question procedures and illuminate potential problems. That’s how we improve. I just think it would be better done in a separate thread rather than a thread where a person announced his success in certification.
Steve


Steve Shannon

billdz said:

The club offered me a pair of waders, something I had never seen before,

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What?

billdz said:

would he go get my rocket for a cash reward.

On Monday, he advised he had my rocket, completely undamaged. He found it in a tree in the swamp. He sent me the attached photo. He said it took him 7 hours and he had to kill 6 water moccasins. He told me he had given up and was leaving the swamp when he saw the rocket by accident, 600 yards away from the reported GPS position. But he must be mistaken or perhaps exaggerating, as both the Telemetrum and the cellular GPS tracker reported a nearly identical position. Even 600 feet seems like way too much.

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I agree with you. 7 hours, 6 snakes, and 600 yards? Sounds like Bubba is embellishing the story to get more reward money from you. How much did you offer him?

Congratulations. You powered through 3 certifications in less than a year. What's next on your checklist?

billdz said:

...That's where my phone GPS let me down. The Telemetrum and my backup cellular tracker both worked exactly as they should but the phone GPS failed, perhaps because of the heavy trees or perhaps for some other unknown reason.

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gps.gov said:

Why does GPS sometimes show me in the wrong place?

Many things can degrade GPS positioning accuracy. Common causes include:

• Satellite signal blockage due to buildings, bridges, trees, etc.

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Source: GPS.gov (Link)

Buckeye said:

7 hours, 6 snakes, and 600 yards? Sounds like Bubba is embellishing the story to get more reward money from you.

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You don't know how to haggle with Bubba types. They are real common in Tennessee. They drink Budwieser beer and would do it for a couple of six packs served cold with a cookout of Vension too, finding a rocket is probably an unforgettable experience for simpleton. If you ain't got deer meat then do some camp stew in a Dutch oven and a couple of dump cakes. Or fish fry. Toss in some .22LR Brick ammo cases for firearms they own and they'll get their buddies to find all your buddies rockets. They may exaggerate some story details, but just let em' ramble. Ramble with them. They love to ramble next to a campfire for hours it's a hobby to them to ramble of adventures. He done got ripped off. Bubba went waltzing away laughing that day!

Death, Taxes, and whenever you cert L3 15 a-holes are going to question everything about it, despite the fact you just had a qualified TAP certify everything. At least 5 of these people will have never actually read the rules, and just make up what they *think* an L3 cert should be.



Congrats dude.

I never realized how stilted the crowd here is. Making fun of this guy named bubba as if they are better than him. Never underestimate the intelligence of someone who talks differently than you. Rocket people can be such jerks.


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grouch said:

I never realized how stilted the crowd here is. Making fun of this guy named bubba as if they are better than him. Never underestimate the intelligence of someone who talks differently than you. Rocket people can be such jerks.


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It's just Andrew, don't take him too seriously. :-D

dhbarr said:

It's just Andrew, don't take him too seriously. :-D

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This. +1000.

My illiterate "Bubba" neighbor named Jim Cobb assembled a Massy Ferguson tractor from a bucket full of parts without a service manual. I never insulted him. Dude worked real hard. He fixed cars in Washington D.C. Until the ECU computerization started in 80's and halfway across the US as a shade tree drifter type. He couldn't write a complete sentence but he photographically remembered how cars came apart and went together. He claimed he stripped lincolns in half the time. He had dealer records of assembly times. He said he never followed the instructions and he found a way that was quicker. He was excellent with wrenches. People made fun of him. He signed a big X on checks. The bank hated him. Dad had to cash a $3,500 check to him once for some bulldozer work for a quarter acre pond. He always told me he wished he finished high school. He grew up with a fur trapper as a dad like living off the land. I was 100% sure Bubba was real from then on. His stories were always exaggerated and well crazy funny to listen too. House foreclosure forced him to move, I got sad. Had many stews, fish fries, beer and deer. He was how I learned how to haggle with Bubba types. They valued some things more than money. A bulldozer oddly. Dude had a D4 international Bulldozer that he built many plots of land with. He would carve the land and make the basis plots that found subdivisions. You could prep the land for realtors or yourself with a dozer and half the estimate prices. He taught himself heavy equipment operations.

He hopped a train once. He used his only pocket change on a land line. And his dad said you got forty miles from home you can walk home. Anyways you can barter real well with Bubba types once you get to know them. I'm not calling them dumb, they can do things without any degrees at all that are amazing. Dude wired all his barns without an electrician license either. Built them from what people called salvage yard trash mdf panels and tin. Only one pop up camper burned. There was an Arkansas bubba dude that loved to eat smoked carp. It was the first time I ever heard anyone talk of eating carp because they are a boney fish. But smoke carp and you make bones all soft enough to eat. They were brought here during depression. Tennessee is the only state where a law says you can keep and eat roadkill. Like LOL.