L3 achieved after a difficult and dangerous recovery in swamp

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billdz

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On Saturday at the Tampa Tripoli launch, I successfully flew my Painkiller Max on an AT M1350 to obtain my L3. However, what should have been a happy day turned frustrating when I attempted to retrieve the rocket, which landed in a swamp.


It was a beautiful, near windless day at the launch site, which is on a working cattle ranch. After making the 4-hour drive from my home in south Florida, I was nervous but confident, because I had prepared carefully and the rocket had previously landed less than 100 yards from the pad on its test flight with a K motor, on a day that was much breezier. The flight was perfect, with the 2' drogue deploying right at the 9018' apogee and the 8' main opening majestically at 800'. Unfortunately, even with just the little drogue open on the big rocket (30.5 lbs. at liftoff), something pushed the rocket quite far from the pad. Some said it must be "upper air wind," but other large rockets launched that day did not drift nearly so far away.


The rocket landed in a heavily wooded cyprus swamp about 1500 yards from the pad. For tracking, the rocket had both a Telemetrum and a cellular GPS tracker, and both showed me the exact location of the rocket on my phone. The club offered me a pair of waders, something I had never seen before, basically rubber overalls that go from the feet to the armpit. They warned me to be careful and to watch out for snakes and gators. I was advised to take someone with me but everyone was busy with their own rockets.


In the swamp wearing the waders, at first it seemed it would be a fun, quick adventure. The water was only about knee deep, the weather was cool, and I soon got to about 100 yards from the landing point. Then the phone GPS stopped following my position properly, still do not know why that happened. After quite some time, I realized it would be impossible to find the rocket without accurate GPS, and I gave up.

The launch ended at 5pm and I got into the car for the long ride home. As I was heading out, a guy on a UTV drove by. I asked him if the UTV is able to travel in the swamp and, if so, would he go get my rocket for a cash reward.


On Monday, he advised he had my rocket, completely undamaged. He found it in a tree in the swamp. He sent me the attached photo. He said it took him 7 hours and he had to kill 6 water moccasins. He told me he had given up and was leaving the swamp when he saw the rocket by accident, 600 yards away from the reported GPS position. But he must be mistaken or perhaps exaggerating, as both the Telemetrum and the cellular GPS tracker reported a nearly identical position. Even 600 feet seems like way too much.


Anyhow, all's well that ends well, this was a happy ending with important lessons learned. Thanks to my TAPs and the Tampa crew for making it possible. Video at:
[video=youtube;-Lo5zOaCgHo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lo5zOaCgHo[/video]

Paul x2 on launch pad.jpg

Paul x2 in tree.jpg

Paul x2 flight map.jpg

Paul x2 flight stats.jpg
 
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snakes and gators. ]

nope.. nope.. nope.. glad we don't have gators in our swamp in Wisconsin.

Glad you got your rocket back- hopefully it'll fly again! Congrats on the L3!
 
Thanks for the replies. There may have been some snakes or gators nearby when I was in the swamp but I did not notice any. I did get disoriented when the GPS failed, fortunately someone launched a big loud rocket which gave me a sense of the direction to travel to get out of the swamp.

The two big mysteries, which may never be answered, are: 1) why did my phone's GPS fail? This never happened before and it seems to be working now. 2) Why did the rocket drift so far away with such light wind? Guess next time I'll have to try an 18" drogue or a streamer.
 
Time of flight and winds aloft at high altitudes can have a significant effect on lateral recovery distance.
 
Thanks for the replies. There may have been some snakes or gators nearby when I was in the swamp but I did not notice any. I did get disoriented when the GPS failed, fortunately someone launched a big loud rocket which gave me a sense of the direction to travel to get out of the swamp.

The two big mysteries, which may never be answered, are: 1) why did my phone's GPS fail? This never happened before and it seems to be working now. 2) Why did the rocket drift so far away with such light wind? Guess next time I'll have to try an 18" drogue or a streamer.
1. GPS (and and radio) can get attenuated by heavy vegetation. 2. Could have hit a thermal.
 
Sorry this was such a hassle, glad it worked out in the end. Makes me grateful to be flying in the desert.

Did you have contact with the rocket once it was in the tree either from the Telemetrum or the cell, or were these coords received while still in flight?

I presume there wasn't any confusion about GPS format (decimal, degrees-minutes-seconds, datum, etc.) Had you used these trackers before successfully?
 
On Saturday at the Tampa Tripoli launch, I successfully flew my Painkiller Max on an AT M1350 to obtain my L3. However, what should have been a happy day turned frustrating when I attempted to retrieve the rocket, which landed in a swamp.
...
View attachment 341445
...
Anyhow, all's well that ends well, this was a happy ending with important lessons learned ...

You went into that with only waders, alone !?!!? :shock: Man, you are nine kindsa lucky. Like hitting the Powerball by yourself lucky ! Congrats on the L3 and not dying in the swamp.
 
First, CONGRATS! Welcome to an exclusive club.

Second, 6 water moccasins? Holy crap! Glad you got it back.
 
You went into that with only waders, alone !?!!? :shock: Man, you are nine kindsa lucky. Like hitting the Powerball by yourself lucky ! Congrats on the L3 and not dying in the swamp.
Some have said "nine kindsa crazy". I've never done anything like that before and had no appreciation of the dangers. It looked innocuous when I first entered.
 
Time of flight and winds aloft at high altitudes can have a significant effect on lateral recovery distance.
Yes, it was over 9000' high, so even a small lateral movement would put it quite far away. And the wind must have been stronger than at ground level.
 
Yes, it was over 9000' high, so even a small lateral movement would put it quite far away. And the wind must have been stronger than at ground level.

I have seen launches where the lag on the ground is hanging limp, but the winds aloft take the rocket to another field.
 
Did you have contact with the rocket once it was in the tree either from the Telemetrum or the cell, or were these coords received while still in flight?

I presume there wasn't any confusion about GPS format (decimal, degrees-minutes-seconds, datum, etc.) Had you used these trackers before successfully?
Yes, I have used both trackers successfully several times and I did have a signal from both after landing until their batteries ran out on Saturday evening. Formats were OK. One device reported the location about 200 feet from the location reported by the other, even that seems like a lot, on prior occasions when I have used 2 trackers the reported landing locations were within 25' of each other, no sure how much variance is normal. I'll bet almost anything, however, that they were not 600 yards or even 600 feet off.
 
1. GPS (and and radio) can get attenuated by heavy vegetation. 2. Could have hit a thermal.
What's a thermal? There were plenty of cypress trees and tall bushes. Does vegetation block a GPS signal more than a house? I have GPS reception from interior rooms in my home. In the swamp, there was no cell service on my phone (although the cellular tracker on the rocket never lost the cell signal), that may have been a factor (no A-GPS). On the launch pad, the phone was seeing 10 sats.
 
In the swamp, there was no cell service on my phone...
Does whatever app you use on the phone for GPS work correctly when there's no cell service? I use a standalone Garmin GPS receiver for recovery so I don't have to worry about this. With the Garmin, I've had bad GPS reception and degraded location in wooded areas, but I've never had it go out completely or be off by more than a few tens of meters (but I've never been in a swamp with one.)
 
I have seen launches where the lag on the ground is hanging limp, but the winds aloft take the rocket to another field.


Bill congratulations on your L3 and being a Tripoli version of Crockodile Dundee! I know that the acquisition of an L3 is challenging...But lions and tigers and gators OH MY!

Fred, L2
ICBM member
Camden, SC
KG4YGP
 
Does whatever app you use on the phone for GPS work correctly when there's no cell service? I use a standalone Garmin GPS receiver for recovery so I don't have to worry about this. With the Garmin, I've had bad GPS reception and degraded location in wooded areas, but I've never had it go out completely or be off by more than a few tens of meters (but I've never been in a swamp with one.)
All I know is that the phone's GPS is supposed to work without cell service, just without A-GPS. There was cell service on my phone at the launch pad, and the cellular tracker never lost the cell signal (both the phone and the tracker are on T-Mobile). The app was giving me completely inconsistent info, e.g.: "Distance 105 meters, bearing right 42 degrees," then, after just a few seconds walking in that direction, "Distance 120 meters, bearing right 81 degrees." I assume this was because the phone did not have my correct location.
 
All I know is that the phone's GPS is supposed to work without cell service, just without A-GPS.
A-GPS doesn't improve location accuracy once you're locked up, it only speeds up initial acquisition. Handheld GPS units without cell service work fine without A-GPS once locked. At any rate, I've found that phone apps may be flakier than dedicated handhelds. There's no way to tell if a handheld would have helped in your case, but I don't think it would have hurt. In my limited experience, phones have a nasty habit of displaying very approximate cell-tower-based locations that can be off by quite a bit (miles, sometimes) if they don't have a clean GPS signal, if GPS is turned off, or just because they feel like it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS
 
For my tracking, I use a BRB900, which requires no cell service. Locks onto GPS satellites. It comes with a transmitter and receiver, about $310 total. Receiver gives coordinates.

To walk out to the rocket, I use a cheap, old Magellan hiker's GPS. Input the coordinates from the BRB receiver, select your favorite interface, and walk to the rocket. I like the interface that looks like a road. As long as you stay on the "road," you are walking at your rocket. I got the Magellan on eBay for $20.

That $330 will feel like nothing when I launch my Formula 200, which now has about $1700 in it after the cato, on an N to 8300' at Red Glare.
 
Congrats on your Level 3 cert! That’s an interesting L3 story lol, I’m sure you left frustrated. I think it landed in the swamp because all your data is in the metric system :).

The video of the take off looked windy to me by watching the smoke, you were a long way up there, upper winds can be tricky sometimes. I launched to 12K’bat MWP and the ground level wind was strong due west - I heard my main Chute event but never saw it come down, everyone was telling my 1/2 mile west which I was in agreement , but my tracker said East?? I learned to trust the tracker - walked right to it .75 Miles...EAST! Hmm


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
Glad you got the rocket back.

Being from Louisiana, swamps are nothing new to me. Easy to get turned around in any "wilderness" if not careful. Places like that can get spooky if you think about it too much while you're out there. And alligator snappers give me the heebie jeebies every time I see one at the zoo or think about one being down there by my feet or under the boat.

Forgive my ignorance and I am not trying to open a can or worms but...
The rocket flew on Saturday and wasn't found and recovered until Monday? And that passed for a cert flight? I know they can be inspected in place to pass/fail but 2 days later? After the launch was over and the flyer not present?

Can a third party present a rocket to the TAP for inspection?
Is there a time frame in which the rocket can be presented and inspected after flight?
Maybe I am missing something here.

OP, sir I am not trying to take away from a successful flight and (albeit delayed) recovery. So please don't take offense.
 
Tampa has a 12k' waiver. What is the distance between the launch site and where the vehicle was actually recovered?


"Non-certification
Any of the following will result in non-certification for a certification flight:


  • Motor Cato
  • Excessive Damage
  • No recovery system deployment or tangled recovery system deployment
  • Rocket drifting outside the specified launch range
  • Components coming down not attached to the recovery system.
  • Any other violation of TRA safety code associated with this particular flight.
  • Any other legitimate reason the TAP member deems merits non-certification."


https://www.tripoli.org/Level3
 
I wasn't suggesting it drifted off the field. Just curious as to how it works: the rocket was "lost" but found after the launch was overeally. If the flier had found the rocket and the TAP inspected it in the tree, then it was recovered two days later..I get that. Or not recovered at all for that matter, the rules don't say it has to be recovered only that it has to be flight capable. But signing off on the cert two days after the flight on a lost then found rocket without the flier present...there has to be a time restriction somewhere, though I haven't seen one. Just because the flier says it was within the landing area, doesn't mean it was..

But I digress. Ultimately it is up to the TAPs. Many unknowns, I wasn't involved. Not saying he doesn't deserve the cert. Was just wondering about the time between flights and cert approvals.
 
This is in the very first message -- about 1500 yards (4500 feet) from the pad.

OP stated "about 1500 yards", then mentioned the claim by the person who actually recovered the vehicle at an "exaggerated" 600 yards from GPS coordinates. It appears that the only person who could know the exact distance is the person who actually recovered the vehicle.

This is a questionable certification in my opinion, as the recovery was not witnessed, and the vehicle not inspected immediately thereafter.

L3 opens up the stratosphere for some very large motors and complex vehicles with the potential to do some serious damage. To me, the knowledge base and competency levels of individuals whom wish to play at this level should not be in question. The fundamental function of a certification is to validate and confirm this competency and knowledge. Not that harmful, fatal, or mass-casualty causing high-power incidents are a common occurrence, but nevertheless, it is a matter of safety. Phrases and descriptors such as "good enough", "about", "I think" "approximately" et al should be removed from these fliers' lexicons and left to the low and mid-power levels.
 
OP stated "about 1500 yards", then mentioned the claim by the person who actually recovered the vehicle at an "exaggerated" 600 yards from GPS coordinates. It appears that the only person who could know the exact distance is the person who actually recovered the vehicle.

This is a questionable certification in my opinion, as the recovery was not witnessed, and the vehicle not inspected immediately thereafter.

L3 opens up the stratosphere for some very large motors and complex vehicles with the potential to do some serious damage. To me, the knowledge base and competency levels of individuals whom wish to play at this level should not be in question. The fundamental function of a certification is to validate and confirm this competency and knowledge. Not that harmful, fatal, or mass-casualty causing high-power incidents are a common occurrence, but nevertheless, it is a matter of safety. Phrases and descriptors such as "good enough", "about", "I think" "approximately" et al should be removed from these fliers' lexicons and left to the low and mid-power levels.

Fortunately in this case, your opinion means absolutely nothing.
 
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