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Tres chic! Is this a scratch build?

Saw you're in SE WA. I know it's a big state, but my "future son-in-law" hails from Bainbridge Island. OK, this is like comparing SF and LA because they're both in CA, but it does bring us to Seattle now and then.

Are you coming to LDRS? I consider myself lucky to be entering the hobby just in time to see and truly appreciate LDRS when it's about as close as it can get.
Its a sort of scratch as the nosecone is an Estes one, but the rest is all scratch.

I am from the Tri-Cites area of WA (Kennewick-Pasco-Richland). Bainbridge Island is in western WA, its nice and green, like subtropical forest area, where I live is desert and brown. As for LDRS not this year, most of my flying is done on my local clubs field, mainly due to having 3 small children and the expense of raising them.
 
I cheated. I built a better cardboard tube.

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The remaining weak point is at the top. I beveled the CF rods to prevent catching the chute on them while stuffing it. Sounded good, but at 65G's if the NC pushes down and widens the BT, there's nothing to stop the BT from expanding other than the cardboard and 8 coats of paint. I thought of putting another reinforcement ring at the top, pushed into position by the NC with Vaseline on it. Then the down-pressure would transmit directly down the BT and the NC would never get in the BT to expand it. I'm concerned about the ring interfering with deployment, though.

In all candor, I'm 80% low-and-slow, 20% get-up-and-go. I enjoy watching it work its way up, seeing the smoke and flames, looking for Mach diamonds.

A couple other enticing motors are the Redline with its pretty, tight, disciplined flame... and the one that pours out a column of black smoke. Is that a Smokey Joe? It's coming time to learn more about motors!

Yes, I have the same exact thoughts of the nose cone finding a new home deep into the tube.

Anyone else care to chime in and offer suggestions? double walling the tube around the nose cone seems the only logical thing to me other than internal structure.
 
I certified on a CTI J-335 Red Lightning.. man.. that thing JUMPED Vertical.. And it was fiberglass..

Ive been known to punish a few tubes in my days...

all 4 fins at the same time, relatively the same place.. chose to say.. Na.. im not doing this...

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mainly due to having 3 small children and the expense of raising them.

I completely relate to that. The last of 4 is in college, and the 3rd of 4 got accepted to 9 law schools including Notre Dame, UC Davis, Ohio State, and more.

I was much closer to your neck of the woods recently - if you call Test Area North near Howe, Idaho close.

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We had the place to ourselves, with perfectly clear skies!
 
Thrust cures all...

??? Thrust thoroughly disassembled what appears to have been a nicely filleted rocket. It's quite enjoyable to meet people with such a wide spectrum of motivations. I need to have more than one rocket before I get wild on it.
 
Pic 7... I even fiber glassed the fin can..

The paper I used on the fins some what held up to a point...

im pretty sure the tube bending happened AFTER fin separation.. somewhere around 700mph

I think I pushed the limit of the bass wood.. but time will tell, Have to do more "research"
 
Pic 7... I even fiber glassed the fin can..

The paper I used on the fins some what held up to a point...

im pretty sure the tube bending happened AFTER fin separation.. somewhere around 700mph

I think I pushed the limit of the bass wood.. but time will tell, Have to do more "research"
Maybe I am missing something but it looks like the grain on those basswood fins was parallel to the root edge instead of parallel to the leading edge, if thats the case that severley weakens a fin in relation to fin flutter.
 
you got bingo !!! Wondered who would be the first to pick up on that.. The crisp break marks is a dead give away.

Congrats!
 
We had the place to ourselves, with perfectly clear skies!

Sounds lonely. Nice pictures though.

So I guess I missed something in the many pages of this thread, but that perforated bulkhead is just a perforated bulkhead, not part of a baffle?

Something else that might be buried somewhere back in this thread

https://www.rocketreviews.com/nike-smoke-8590.html

Review of a stock-built Nike Smoke, including two logged flights on an H128-10 motor.
 
So I guess I missed something in the many pages of this thread, but that perforated bulkhead is just a perforated bulkhead, not part of a baffle?

It's just to keep the laundry from falling to the bottom. I filled the fins with epoxy/microbubbles and with some of the H motors the CG was getting to far rearward, so I wanted to keep the hardware more to the top. The harness could also move higher from its original MM-mounted location.

Review of a stock-built Nike Smoke, including two logged flights on an H128-10 motor.

Thanks. Saw they were in the mid-2300's, so I took the extra weight off the sim model in OR and saw a no-motor mass of 486g, very close to Estes spec. It sims to 2250', 100' lower than reported. Mine weighs 640g from bracing, glue joints, the bulkhead, lots of paint, Nomex pad, and being built like a tank. It sims 110' lower. That trade-off works for me, since it's my only rocket and I want to experiment with many different motors.
 
Today's flights went well. The G40-7 was a pretty good match for the rocket. I made a mistake in the first launch - I packed the chute the way I did years ago. The JLCR got tangled up in the shroud lines and the chute didn't deploy. Fortunately, the 25' Kevlar shock cord and tumbling kept the velocity reasonable. The grass is long and the ship is strong; no harm done.

Eric saw the seriously twisted Kevlar when I brought it back and asked how I packed the chute. Experience is priceless. I told him, and he ever so graciously explained that the JLCR wants the chutes packed differently than we used to. My wife was so impressed with his - and everyone's - politeness, respect and friendly nature.

I had another G40, so I untwisted the Kevlar. When the shroud line got tangled, it tangled the swivel - what a mess it was! With the chute packed as Eric suggested and the JLCR double-checked for a red LED at 300, I went to the line again. Everything worked as planned. It's probably good to write "Chute release" on the flight form rather than "JLCR". Apparently I inadvertently caused some concern.

Landing1.jpg

I have to say that launching a 3" diameter anything off a 1/4" rod is probably ill-advised. I'm going to do some math, but there is obviously friction against the rod, causing drag, which causes torque because the thrust vector is 1.75" from the rod. This makes the friction worse as time goes on. Most 3"+ rockets used the rail, but those that didn't bent the rod and shot off at an angle. It's physics... it's unavoidable with a whippy rod.

Next week: L1 cert flight at LUNAR.
 
I no longer use rods for the most part, my LPR rockets fly off a 15mm micro rail (5' long), heavier LPR and light MPR rockets off a 80/20 inc 20mm Mini Rail ( 6' long), and the heavier MPR and most HPR off the clubs 6'-8' 1010 rails, my heaviest HPRs off the clubs 8'-12' 1515 rail. Only my older LPR rockets still use rods.
 
Thanks, Rich. The math isn't really required, is it?

Looking for a silver lining, I thought: maybe I'll put rail guides on the side opposite from the launch lugs. It would equalize the drag, and I wouldn't have to remove the lugs and likely weaken the BT. I want a solid L1 launch in 6 days, and no one will care about the lugs.
 
PS... Rich, do you have your own set of launch rails, or does your club offer all those alternatives?
My club offers the Micro, 1010, and 1515, as well as 1/8", 3/16", and 1/4" rods. Any launch I attend which is almost every one of my local clubs' I provide a Jawstand pad with both a Micro Rail and a 20mm rail ( soon I am adding a 1010 rail to my pad, I just need to get it and build the triple rail holder for them. The Micro and Mini are mounted back to back currently.
 
I have to say that launching a 3" diameter anything off a 1/4" rod is probably ill-advised. I'm going to do some math, but there is obviously friction against the rod, causing drag, which causes torque because the thrust vector is 1.75" from the rod. This makes the friction worse as time goes on. Most 3"+ rockets used the rail, but those that didn't bent the rod and shot off at an angle. It's physics... it's unavoidable with a whippy rod.

Next week: L1 cert flight at LUNAR.

Depends on the rod, I think. I launched my L1 certification from a 1/4" rod. Specs are in my sig. The lugs were scavenged from a PSII kit. Estes offered the Mammoth, Trajector, Prowler bundled with a launch controller and pad for $40-something in June or July. I parted out all three kits, so I had three sets of those lugs on my bench.

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I added 3D-printed rail guides to the rocket in case the lugs got ripped off during the launch...figuring, if that was the only damage it sustained, I could argue that it was still flyable.

If you are worried about it, I am sure Tim Van Milligan would be happy to overnight a set of rail-guides to you <grin>

https://www.apogeerockets.com/Build...-Buttons/Conformal-Rail-Guides-for-3-1in-Tube
 
That first flight went well... Recovery??? Ehhh. Lol... I am really happy you got it up the second time with great success... That 1/8" kevlar did some amazing twisting. But its not surprising if the swivel was bound up by a chute.

I did add buttons to my Argent when I decided to do my L1 with it. It doesn't bother me at all that both are on it. And the added drag is negligible with a rocket going that slow.

Great job. See you in 6 days...
 
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Today's flights went well. The G40-7 was a pretty good match for the rocket. I made a mistake in the first launch - I packed the chute the way I did years ago. The JLCR got tangled up in the shroud lines and the chute didn't deploy. Fortunately, the 25' Kevlar shock cord and tumbling kept the velocity reasonable. The grass is long and the ship is strong; no harm done.

Eric saw the seriously twisted Kevlar when I brought it back and asked how I packed the chute. Experience is priceless. I told him, and he ever so graciously explained that the JLCR wants the chutes packed differently than we used to. My wife was so impressed with his - and everyone's - politeness, respect and friendly nature.

I had another G40, so I untwisted the Kevlar. When the shroud line got tangled, it tangled the swivel - what a mess it was! With the chute packed as Eric suggested and the JLCR double-checked for a red LED at 300, I went to the line again. Everything worked as planned. It's probably good to write "Chute release" on the flight form rather than "JLCR". Apparently I inadvertently caused some concern.

Landing1.jpg

I have to say that launching a 3" diameter anything off a 1/4" rod is probably ill-advised. I'm going to do some math, but there is obviously friction against the rod, causing drag, which causes torque because the thrust vector is 1.75" from the rod. This makes the friction worse as time goes on. Most 3"+ rockets used the rail, but those that didn't bent the rod and shot off at an angle. It's physics... it's unavoidable with a whippy rod.

Next week: L1 cert flight at LUNAR.

Congrats on the shakedown flights! And my 3" kit did fine off the rod, once it actually made it off the pad! The last launch only needed one igniter. I've got your two videos and a host of others uploading now. I'll link them when they finish their journey to YouTube! See you in 6 days!
 
Thanks, swatkat. Nice videos, thank you! That name - swatkat - it reminds me of a scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Any thoughts on why the Smoke would (apparently) bend the rod twice in similar ways? What kind of launch lug are you using? I installed the Estes polystyrene lugs. They have a fair amount of play in them.
 
Any thoughts on why the Smoke would (apparently) bend the rod twice in similar ways? What kind of launch lug are you using? I installed the Estes polystyrene lugs. They have a fair amount of play in them.

Its hard to tell from the cell-phone video, but it looks like like the rod was sagging under the weight of the rocket before ignition.

How long was the rod, and which way was the wind blowing?

I want to ask about the mode of vibration after the rocket left the rod -- but since you've got the rocket in hand there are probably easier ways to tell if the lugs are aligned to each other and to the long-axis of the rocket. <smile>

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FWIW -- The Estes PSII Launch Base -- for which this rocket was (presumably) designed has a 5 foot 1/4" rod.
 
Thanks, swatkat. Nice videos, thank you! That name - swatkat - it reminds me of a scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Any thoughts on why the Smoke would (apparently) bend the rod twice in similar ways? What kind of launch lug are you using? I installed the Estes polystyrene lugs. They have a fair amount of play in them.

Swatkats were a old cartoon in the 80's. Down these mean skies a kat must fly!!! And I'm using the standard launch lug that Estes supplies, but mine are cardboard. I didn't check on your placement of the lug, as getting it too far forward can cause rod whip, as can a low-impulse motor like those FastJack/Black Jacks we saw a few times yesterday! Your G40 was fine for speed off the rod tho. Had I known I would have given you a pack of 3D printed buttons you could have attached right there, I always have a few floating in my range box.
 
Today's flights went well. The G40-7 was a pretty good match for the rocket. I made a mistake in the first launch - I packed the chute the way I did years ago. The JLCR got tangled up in the shroud lines and the chute didn't deploy. Fortunately, the 25' Kevlar shock cord and tumbling kept the velocity reasonable. The grass is long and the ship is strong; no harm done.

Eric saw the seriously twisted Kevlar when I brought it back and asked how I packed the chute. Experience is priceless. I told him, and he ever so graciously explained that the JLCR wants the chutes packed differently than we used to. My wife was so impressed with his - and everyone's - politeness, respect and friendly nature.

I had another G40, so I untwisted the Kevlar. When the shroud line got tangled, it tangled the swivel - what a mess it was! With the chute packed as Eric suggested and the JLCR double-checked for a red LED at 300, I went to the line again. Everything worked as planned. It's probably good to write "Chute release" on the flight form rather than "JLCR". Apparently I inadvertently caused some concern.

Landing1.jpg

I have to say that launching a 3" diameter anything off a 1/4" rod is probably ill-advised. I'm going to do some math, but there is obviously friction against the rod, causing drag, which causes torque because the thrust vector is 1.75" from the rod. This makes the friction worse as time goes on. Most 3"+ rockets used the rail, but those that didn't bent the rod and shot off at an angle. It's physics... it's unavoidable with a whippy rod.

Next week: L1 cert flight at LUNAR.

I'm writing this because I'm assuming you put your swivel on the chute.

I couldn't see from the videos or from what this pic showed, but what part of the Kevlar was twisted. It looks like the section between the fin can and chute was twisted. The chute to nose cone doesn't seem to be twisted much.

If that is the case, it is pretty typical of DD flights, including JLCR flights with long fall times. The chutes almost never spin and twist. The two parts, fin can and nose cone, almost never rotate below the chute fast enough that the chute can't rotate with them. The big twisting item is the fin can. For some reason some fincans seem to spin very fast on the ends of the shock cord. I've got one that spins at 100 - 200 RPM. This can twist up the shock cord, twisting the drogue chute (main chute using JLCR) up in the twisted cord and prevent proper deployment.

The fix for this is to put the swivel on the fin can, not the chute.

With 1/8" tubular Kevlar, it will still twist up some if the fin can spins because the resistance to twisting is less then the turning resistance of the swivel. That is where good ball bearing swivels really help. It will still reduce the amount of twisting and prevent fouling the chutes.

Just some food for thought.....
 
Its hard to tell from the cell-phone video, but it looks like like the rod was sagging under the weight of the rocket before ignition.

The second flight was definitely at an angle. I was the last to come to the line, and in my rush didn't think to look at the rod from two perspectives. I could have aborted the flight, but a friend thought it would stay on field, which it did. It was pointed into the wind for the most part, perhaps 20 degrees off.

For that matter, the first flight arced "above and behind me". Had the rod been slightly canted in that direction, it may have flown true even though I couldn't see the misalignment. Lesson: ensure rod/rail is aligned exactly as I want it.

I want to ask about the mode of vibration after the rocket left the rod -- but since you've got the rocket in hand there are probably easier ways to tell if the lugs are aligned to each other and to the long-axis of the rocket. <smile>

Hehe... all in good spirit. I aligned them with an aluminum angle iron before and after gluing and bore-sighted the pair. But I have an answer, a small (2"x2"x1") digital level. No excuses then.

The fix for this is to put the swivel on the fin can, not the chute.

Thanks, Handeman. The photo is of the second, successful landing. The Kevlar is barely twisted, perhaps even less than when it was stuffed. The first landing was the problem. There are two swivels, one on the fincan and the other bufferflied into the shock cord for the parachute. Quick-links connect both ends.

The problem was old-school thinking. I folded the chute, then wrapped the shroud lines around it. This caused two failures: first, the JLCR didn't release and should have had the smaller rubber band, and second, one of the shroud lines was just the right size to jam into the swivel, preventing it from swiveling. The shock cord looked like a Brillo pad.

Both mistakes are easily avoidable in the future. I'm lucky the rocket was not damaged in the first flight. An Easter guardian angel perhaps?
 
Success!!!

Thanks to everyone for their guidance on my L1 cert flight. It went perfectly on a beautiful day. Special thanks to Eric, Swatkat and Steve for your thoughtful contributions!
 
Success!!!

Thanks to everyone for their guidance on my L1 cert flight. It went perfectly on a beautiful day. Special thanks to Eric, Swatkat and Steve for your thoughtful contributions!

Sweet! It will be interesting to see how may people certified at LUNAR today - seemed like a TON of certification launches.
 
Success!!!

Thanks to everyone for their guidance on my L1 cert flight. It went perfectly on a beautiful day. Special thanks to Eric, Swatkat and Steve for your thoughtful contributions!

Yup! Perfect flight! Congrats! Much better than my forward closure failure to start the day. But hey I was in the lead in the drag race until I wasn't.....
 
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