new car "features' may be making us more dangerous on the roads

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dr wogz

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https://www.ctvnews.ca/features/how...ctually-be-making-our-driving-worse-1.3823118

In the on going 'driver rants' threads..

An interesting read..

This is something I've been advocating for a while. With a lot of the new 'safety features we have in our cars, we seem to be getting lazier and relying on the car to drive & monitor itself.. We seem to have forgotten to look, to be prudent, to actually know how to drive.. We seem to believe the ads, that our cars (that specific car) will drive us home safely in a snow storm, while we text and have bald tires..
 
I've read similar things over the last few years. 4WD/AWD, traction control, assisted braking, lane warnings, and 47 airbags insulate people from feeling the road and make them feel invincible so they drive more recklessly. All the screens and lights and buttons don't help either.

Until last year my daily driver was a 97 Jeep Wrangler I bought used in 2000. I put over 250,000 miles on it on top of the 90,000 it already had. It was pretty spartan with an old-school 4WD, just 2 airbags, and no electronic traction or safety features. I spent years modifying it for off-roading, and the 5" lift and 35" tires gave some pretty strong feedback on the road conditions. I could feel every slip of a tire or slight skip of a hydroplane at highway speeds.

Just one anecdote about the usefulness of that feedback...a few years ago I was driving on Valentine's Day to pick up flowers for my wife. It was snowing pretty heavily, the road was covered in an inch or more, and the Jeep was telling me 40MPH was about right for the conditions. Some new SUV came flying up behind me doing at least 60, then proceeded to tailgate me. As I rounded a slight curve I looked into the rearview to see the SUV fishtail for a moment before flying off the right side of the road where it hit an embankment, went airborne, then crashed down in someone's yard.

I've leased/bought/rented a variety of new vehicles over the last few years, and compared to old vehicles it's stunning how thoroughly they insulate the driver from sensing the road.
 
Blind spot warnings / rear view cameras are serious crutches to certain people. They no longer check mirrors, look over their shoulders etc. And they think their blind spot warning indicator equates to the right-of-way.
 
From a scientific standpoint, when an op ed differs from evidence, you side with the latter.
And correlation does not equal causation — for example, chances are the texting would be occurring even without the safety features.
I doubt that there isn’t an effect, but I wouldn’t say that the effect is as drastic as described either.
 
I drive an 07' Volvo S40T5. It has ABS and a traction control system. You can actually toggle a scroll wheel to disable the Traction control which is handy in bad weather. It's not as insulated as an Audi A4 but the damn Volvo has 400 pages of wiring diagrams anyways without all those automatic braking BS or moving map garbage. I don't need a radar crap I swivel my head. All I see is a bunch of drivers with phones in hands or near ears. And they call Chattanooga wreck a nooga... These idiots are doing 65 in a 45 mph construction zone and the city put cop cars , a radar trap digital sign, and I think they need to just start using spike strips. There's construction workers trying to work and earn a living and these insulated tards don't care or are oblivious. I do about 45 mph through the construction zone every day. There was this one time where a construction worker accidently stepped into the road and I hard stopped dad's car when I was 17 from about 70mph on road trip to Boston. Dad was jolted forward from a nap yelling why did you stop, cussing all something, and this worker was about 2" from being hit. Yeah it's not the speeding fines are double stuff. Worry about a construction worker stepping into the road and you getting some manslaughter charge if you aren't as lucky as I was... Any speeder wouldn't have been able to stop in that distance.

I also got hit at a marked crosswalk last fall on campus by an oblivious driver in a new raised truck. Dude blamed sun was in his eyes or some sh*t. Oddly I didn't feel one bit of pain from sliding 15ft and under it. Contacted me at shoulder. I thought my left hip was broken next day but it was all cool, it just hurt real bad and had some toenails fall off. I told the son of b*tch I saw worse in my life including people shot to death and that I wasn't sueing him over a elbow bruise but to watch where he was going. Told him I wasn't riding with him to a hospital that he sucked at driving. I walked off refusing to help him explain to a cop what happened and the cop put him in handcuffs. Everybody else was stopping at that crosswalk. Told the clinic I got hit by a truck and needed a bandaid and this Whiner liberal generation was all you need to sign a health form and go see a hospital. They eventually gave me a bandaid after a few choice words. I didn't want to miss advanced fluids because that prof was a a-hole of a prof who wouldn't give lecture notes if you missed any class and he tried to fail people.
 
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I’m inclined to disagree with the writer. The adaptive cruise control on my two cars keeps a reasonable distance between me and the car in front of me. Even at the second to shortest distance that I usually keep it set at, the car keeps about twice as much separation as almost all other traffic. I had to shorten the distance to keep other cars from filling the gap between me and the car in front of me. The warning to brake is also helpful, even though it blinks and beeps at me when another driver cuts in front of me. The lane keeping assist just makes driving on the freeway easier. I really notice it when weather conditions disable it. The cameras are also helpful. They show things you can’t see looking over your shoulder or in the mirrors. They are a nice tool that I use in addition to looking. I still look over my shoulder and in the mirrors. Habits built over 45 years of driving don’t go away even with new technology. I don’t look at texts when I drive. The car reads them to me and lets me respond vocally. And I disable incoming phone calls when I start the car. All of that technology makes things safer. I really notice the absence of it when I rent a car without it.

Joe


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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year

Look at 1972, look at 2016 and tell me safety tech has made us less safe. I've worked in the automotive industry, we did a lot of studies on driver distractions. The number 1 distraction right now is not the rearview camera (Which only works when backing up), nor is it blind spot sensors or anything related to the car, it's your cell phone.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year

Look at 1972, look at 2016 and tell me safety tech has made us less safe. I've worked in the automotive industry, we did a lot of studies on driver distractions. The number 1 distraction right now is not the rearview camera (Which only works when backing up), nor is it blind spot sensors or anything related to the car, it's your cell phone.

I came here to link to this very Wiki article, but you beat me to it!

Agreed, the writer's thesis is deeply flawed. Driving today is safer than it has ever been, despite the introduction of a major distraction (our phones) into the mix. The writer suffers from a bad case of "get off my lawn," IMHO.

James
 
My interpretation of dr wogz's point is not that tech has made cars - or driving them - less safe (obviously, that's not the case), but rather that the introduction of multiple safety "features" has made drivers less skilled and more dependent on said features. And frankly, I think that a fair argument could made to that effect. Yes, distractions have made potential problems for drivers. But modern drivers - especially those brought up on these features - aren't taught or retain the same skills as drivers had 1972. This is a double-edged sword, I think. The cars get better, safer, but the drivers potentially become dependent on what cars can do for them now. So, their own skill set reduces - or, at least, changes. I think this just the nature of progress.

But where do you draw the line as to what is reasonable? BLIS warns drivers of cars in the blind spots, so people don't look before changing lanes. Back up cameras give the driver something new to look at, so they don't look out the windows when backing up. Stability control systems make drivers less sensitive to maintaining a handling balance in poor traction conditions. ABS has made it so you can stomp the brake and not have to pump them. Power assist features make it too easy to steer and stop. Automatic transmissions mean few people know how to row-their-own gears. Syncronized transmissions mean people forgot how to double clutch! Heck, hydraulic brakes mean people don't plan their stopping distances like they used to. And for Pete's sake, electric starters mean that no one remembers how to hand crank start their car. I mean, what the heck? I think this is just the nature of progress. But in the process, I do believe we're allowing drivers to be bred dumber. However, I don't see that as a fault of the technology. I see that as a result of overall poor driver training and certification.
 
Thanks Rick,

my 'argument' exactly..

Not just with cars.. but with a lot of technology, we're becoming more & more dependant on it, and loosing the skill sets we once had to acquire to do a good job..
 
Reminds me of when anti-lock brakes first came out. For years, experts had been screaming "Pump your breaks" when driving on snow or ice. Then they came out with anti-lock brakes, which don't need to be pumped, but the weird feeling of the brake action caused people to start pumping their brakes. :facepalm:
 
The JLCR is reducing the average HPR skill level... Nobody learns how to do "real" dual deploy anymore... :wink:
 
Thanks Rick,

my 'argument' exactly..

Not just with cars.. but with a lot of technology, we're becoming more & more dependant on it, and loosing the skill sets we once had to acquire to do a good job..

While a greater reliance on automation may indeed reduce the ability of the most skillful drivers to exert their superior decision making and reflexes, most drivers just think they can do better than the automation or don’t understand when the automation should be disabled.
Consider the skill sets that were necessary not too long ago, but which almost nobody would wish back: ability to crank start a car, ability to adjust timing while driving (there used to be an adjustment on the steering column), need to adjust the points every 2000 or 3000 miles, etc.
Modern safety features don’t prevent a person from using more manual safe driving techniques. If someone chooses to forego good driving habits because of assistive technology that’s a poor choice they have made.
Or, we could go the opposite direction and mount the driver’s seat outside of the cab, ahead of the front bumper… I’m sure people would drive more carefully then.


Steve Shannon
 
we have one simple device on a car that helps immensely, especially, if not only, for the sake of being courteous. it's a law, but never enforced. And, it's probably one of the most complained about issues drivers (and pedestrians) have with other drivers..

Use your turn signal!
 
we have one simple device on a car that helps immensely, especially, if not only, for the sake of being courteous. it's a law, but never enforced. And, it's probably one of the most complained about issues drivers (and pedestrians) have with other drivers..

Use your turn signal!

Amen!


Steve Shannon
 
Man some people will invent excuses to complain about anything.

I think that most accidents are far more due to over-aggressive or STUPID driving than over-reliance on technology built into the cars (the upswing due to texting while driving or dialing a phone while driving is a whole other issue)

My 1999 Elantra wagon is dying, Header gasket among the issues, not worth trying to fix. So I’ve been considering what to get to replace it. Can’t afford a new car. Wont bother to list my criteria, but I’ll probably get a Subaru Outback (bit more cargo space, similar or better gas mileage, 4WD, safer, longer lasting). I test drove a 2011 model a few weeks ago, after it had snowed. Found an isolated side road that had snow and ice on it, and also a nearby vacant parking lot. My 1999 Elantra front wheel drive, without anti-lock, is not very safe to drive in those conditions. And I got stuck once in a FLAT driveway with just an inch of snow. Often my solution is not to drive till all the roads can be cleared. But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do (and often the hardest part is the driveway itself). One particularly bad thing it does when I do a brake-check test at low speed, is to yaw to the right. Probably uneven brake bias.

Anyway, with the Outback, the antilock brakes made it keep dead straight as I hit the brakes hard in testing. I later tried to turn the steering wheel left as I hit the brakes. The car yawed to the left in response to the steering. A repeat for the right had good response to the right. It’s been so long now that I cannot recall for sure if it also slightly curved to the left or not. In any case I was really impressed with the dynamic traction control (not unique to Subaru, but first time I'd knowingly tried anything like that). On the deserted parking lot at about 20 mph, I turned left, then HARD right to see what it did. It did not try to spin out, turned to the right nicely. I wasn’t trying to do any crazy stuff, and those were relatively low speeds. But I know how poorly my Elantra would have handled that.

I have had the chance to drive a couple of other cars. One detected cars in blind spots. I found that to be VERY useful. Am I lazy in not turing my head nearly180 degrees to look for cars out of view of the mirror? No I CAN NOT turn my heard more than about 45 degrees left or right. Even with peripheral vision I can’t see much more than about 100 degrees from the front, or 10 degrees past 90 degrees left or right. Too often there are cars in the left lane along the left rear tire that I don’t see in the mirror. So I really liked that blind spot sensor (like, uh, they're not called blind spot sensors for nothing).

I also had the chance to drive with a rear view camera. I use mirrors too, but that rear view camera adds so much more to the safety when backing up.

I liked the rear view camera so much, that I got a system to add to my car. The monitor location was a kludge since there was no place to mount it. So, I placed the monitor sitting on the dash, on the far left side, just to the right of the exterior driver’s side mirror. That was a strategic choice to have it in the same horizontal line-of-sight as using that side mirror. Because I got a second camera. And mounted the second camera inside the rear left passenger door’s window to point about 45 degrees from left side to rear (The monitor changes from rear view to that view when I’m not in reverse gear). So that is a good “blind spot camera” for anything on my left side in another lane. I know it may sound screwy, but it works for me. Well, it did. I had to rearrange some things and the system went out on me so I have not been using it for awhile. But I feel I was SAFER with it, than without it. And I plan to reinstall it into my next car.

In the merged images below, the one on top shows the rear view camera feed, the one on bottom shows the left/rear blindspot camera feed.

H8JoaL7.jpg
 
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Man some people will invent excuses to complain about anything.

I think that most accidents are far more due to over-aggressive or STUPID driving than over-reliance on technology built into the cars (the upswing due to texting while driving or dialing a phone while driving is a whole other issue)

My 1999 Elantra wagon is dying, Header gasket among the issues, not worth trying to fix. So I’ve been considering what to get to replace it. Can’t afford a new car. Wont bother to list my criteria, but I’ll probably get a Subaru Outback (bit more cargo space, similar or better gas mileage, 4WD, safer, longer lasting). I test drove a 2011 model a few weeks ago, after it had snowed. Found an isolated side road that had snow and ice on it, and also a nearby vacant parking lot. My 1999 Elantra front wheel drive, without anti-lock, is not very safe to drive in those conditions. And I got stuck once in a FLAT driveway with just an inch of snow. Often my solution is not to drive till all the roads can be cleared. But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do (and often the hardest part is the driveway itself). One particularly bad thing it does when I do a brake-check test at low speed, is to yaw to the right. Probably uneven brake bias.

Anyway, with the Outback, the antilock brakes made it keep dead straight as I hit the brakes hard in testing. I later tried to turn the steering wheel left as I hit the brakes. The car yawed to the left in response to the steering. A repeat for the right had good response to the right. It’s been so long now that I cannot recall for sure if it also slightly curved to the left or not. In any case I was really impressed with the dynamic traction control (not unique to Subaru, but first time I'd knowingly tried anything like that). On the deserted parking lot at about 20 mph, I turned left, then HARD right to see what it did. It did not try to spin out, turned to the right nicely. I wasn’t trying to do any crazy stuff, and those were relatively low speeds. But I know how poorly my Elantra would have handled that.

I have had the chance to drive a couple of other cars. One detected cars in blind spots. I found that to be VERY useful. Am I lazy in not turing my head nearly180 degrees to look for cars out of view of the mirror? No I CAN NOT turn my heard more than about 45 degrees left or right. Even with peripheral vision I can’t see much more than about 100 degrees from the front, or 10 degrees past 90 degrees left or right. Too often there are cars in the left lane along the left rear tire that I don’t see in the mirror. So I really liked that blind spot sensor (like, uh, they're not called blind spot sensors for nothing).

I also had the chance to drive with a rear view camera. I use mirrors too, but that rear view camera adds so much more to the safety when backing up.

I liked the rear view camera so much, that I got a system to add to my car. The monitor location was a kludge since there was no place to mount it. So, I placed the monitor sitting on the dash, on the far left side, just to the right of the exterior driver’s side mirror. That was a strategic choice to have it in the same horizontal line-of-sight as using that side mirror. Because I got a second camera. And mounted the second camera inside the rear left passenger door’s window to point about 45 degrees from left side to rear (The monitor changes from rear view to that view when I’m not in reverse gear). So that is a good “blind spot camera” for anything on my left side in another lane. I know it may sound screwy, but it works for me. Well, it did. I had to rearrange some things and the system went out on me so I have not been using it for awhile. But I feel I was SAFER with it, than without it. And I plan to reinstall it into my next car.

In the merged images below, the one on top shows the rear view camera feed, the one on bottom shows the left/rear blindspot camera feed.

H8JoaL7.jpg
Most vehicles go to the right when sliding, it has more to do with the fact that roads are cambered(?), sloping from a high center to lower shoulder side. The reason is mainly for drainage of water, however brake bias can play into direction of slide usually its more obvious in dry conditions as a "pulling" one way or the other as brakes are applied.
 
I always turn my lights on.

And I remember that was an issue a year or two ago, that the automatic lights were causing issues.. that people didn't turn them on anymore. So the back of the car was just 'black' at night. And now, they seem to have 'automatic; hi beams on some cars. Again, a neat idea, but the lady around the corner who has them, now blinds us all as we walk our dogs at night. Her coming into the neighbourhood and them things switching to 'hi'..

The main distinction here is that "good" drivers know what the features are, how they apply, their limitations, and such. "Bad" (most?!) drivers don't quite understand them, become reliant on them, then are surprised when something happens that's outside the scope of the feature..

I love the people who by the Canon 5D and complain that it takes crappy pictures.. it's a great camera, but you need to understand what the buttons & dials do. You can't leave in in 'program' and expect 'National Geographic' quality shots..

Remember the guy in the motor home? Who put on the 'cruise control' then went in the back to make himself a cup of coffee. After the accident, he was bewildered as to why he had the accident. it was in' cruise control'.. yes, an urban legend, but has roots somewhere!

How many 'regular' people know the difference between AWD & 4WD? And how exactly does traction control work? And with AWD / 4WD, how many forget that while they may have more control on snow & ice, the braking distances are still the same..

I remember seeing a news article on TV about gasoline. it seems people were putting 'super' (91 octane) in their tanks thinking that it improved performance, cut down on trips to the station, made their car run better etc.. One guy, when asked what does the 87, 89, 91 mean, he replied "that's how 'clean the gas is, 87% clean, 89% clean.."
 
Most vehicles go to the right when sliding, it has more to do with the fact that roads are cambered(?), sloping from a high center to lower shoulder side. The reason is mainly for drainage of water, however brake bias can play into direction of slide usually its more obvious in dry conditions as a "pulling" one way or the other as brakes are applied.

It happens whether the road is "crowned", or a flat parking lot, or a flat driveway (indeed when driving out for the first time after a snow, I'll often do this test on the driveway which is flat). And notably other vehicles I've had a chance to drive, that have anti-lock brakes, have not done this on the very same driveway/road where I often have tested for it with the Elantra.

To me now it's sort of a routine check thing not so much to see what the car is doing that might be different, but to remind myself that the road conditions are not normal. After having spent years in Alabama when during the times it did snow, the primary technique for snow driving was to wait until the snow/ice melted days later (I'm in Minnesota now). So it's been an adjustment/learning thing for me to get used to. Fortunately the road past the house is plowed frequently as are all the key roads I usually need to drive on, so a least it's not deep snow (and often a lot of the roads are dry, or wet but not icy, within a day, if not hours, due to salt, traffic, or whatever). Sometimes tricky with the driveway if it's not been plowed (Long driveway. And sometimes the wind blows snow back onto it in drifts).

BTW - another test I did with the Outback, was on a part of the road that was mostly dry, but the right hand third was ice/snow. As I carefully started to slow to stop where there were no cars, I hit the brakes hard (ready to let off), to see if the car might try to veer left due to the uneven traction (ice/snow under the right wheels, dry pavement under the left wheels). It held dead steady straight! I know what my Elantra does in that situation, it veers towards the dry pavement side.

As for Cruise Control in an RV.....

[video=youtube;viZIbv8pfeI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viZIbv8pfeI[/video]
 
Her ei Montreal, we get snow, and ice, and all sorts of wintery wonderfulness.. An every year, at the first major show fall, I try to get out the local mall (after hours of course) and throw my car about, to see what it'll do. Also, to see what I can do. it's a relatively safe area to brake hard, practice the 'brake & avoid', slide around lamp posts, etc.. (and it can be a hoot!)

I mentioned this to a family member, and they blurted out "Why would you do that?!?!"

I rest my case.. :D
 
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