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I was wondering why Andrew and his crew didn't make their own tubes, couplers, and nose cone. You don't need to be an engineer to build a kit from parts purchased. Would be a great learning project to build all your own parts.
 
crossfire said:
I was wondering why Andrew and his crew didn't make their own tubes, couplers, and nose cone. You don't need to be an engineer to build a kit from parts purchased. Would be a great learning project to build all your own parts.
Click to expand...

They could probably have made any size tube they wanted.
 
Andrew_ASC said:
Maybe. I don't know, Xometry committed an engineering team for three days to RFQ a fifty dollar solidworks component. (I know they lost money on that.) They were on the phone for three hours. But hey it's not fair to compare a NASA contractor that deals with engineering projects and manufacturing firms to Madcow at all. That's just engineering projects. Requires data. Your picture of a product won't do. Technical specs. Some businesses want your business harder than others. Another firm put a thank you card and FedExed an order for free from California. They weren't one or two person operations but multimillion dollar firms. They have bigger orders with BMW, GE, DOD, and yet they still listen. Amazing.

They didn't care if it's a one off order or a full scale I need 30,000 components by next Friday type deal. They treated you with the same respect and tried to answer questions. Guess who got repeat orders. The people that were easier to work with got our repeat business.
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They did this because they found the project interesting; not because they were interested in customer service. I worked at an aerospace firm and designers and engineers get bored just like everyone else. The chance to do something unique and help some college kids is why they did it. And engineers rarely gave a rat's behind about a customer. Plus engineering time was costed out at $150 an hour at my company. I bet no one in management knew what these guys were doing to help you or they would have had a major hissy fit. When you get out of college and get your 60 hour a week job you will understand.
 
If you had all this money to throw around and needed each part to fit precisely, why didn't you just roll your own tubes and build it from scratch. It's not uncommon and no one would have to worry about your deadline aside from yourself.
 
Zeus-cat said:
They did this because they found the project interesting; not because they were interested in customer service. I worked at an aerospace firm and designers and engineers get bored just like everyone else. The chance to do something unique and help some college kids is why they did it. And engineers rarely gave a rat's behind about a customer. Plus engineering time was costed out at $150 an hour at my company. I bet no one in management knew what these guys were doing to help you or they would have had a major hissy fit. When you get out of college and get your 60 hour a week job you will understand.
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I wouldn't say that engineers don't give a rat's behind about the customer. Most of them care very much about getting the customer the product that the engineer thinks that they need. Whether that's what the customer actually needed or asked for is another question entirely. :) Engineers will also do a lot for an interesting project if they can get it past or around management. It helps if you're nice to them and/or bring donuts. I loved working with the cadets at the Coast Guard or Naval Academies because they were always so darn nice to me.

Now that I think about it, engineers aren't so different from other people*. They'll usually do a lot for you if you're nice, have reasonable requests, and respect their knowledge and experience.

* Stop snickering, dammit!
 
crossfire said:
I was wondering why Andrew and his crew didn't make their own tubes, couplers, and nose cone. You don't need to be an engineer to build a kit from parts purchased. Would be a great learning project to build all your own parts.
Click to expand...

I designed supersonic airfoil fins, custom printed nosecones, jigs and cnc fabbed launch tower for a TRA record 20,000ft+. Outsourced manufacturing of parts. It was stable till Mach 1.5 until Custom interstage power series shell imploded. We had sanded tube all by half. Couldn't tilt head fast enough. I should just post pics in multistage thread. Nosecone has patentable features and has drag coefficient with volume we wanted. We only used a store bought tube then you guys get all wank. We imploded it at Utah. Those once or twice a year waivers suck.
We read Jim Jarvis 212 page tutorial on rolling tubes and thought out of our skill level.

We had enough fun figuring out Raven 3, minitimer4, and a TeleGPS. I was a mech student with ham license. Putting those with an I1299N-P was a bad call. We were new like Lpr new. The body tube sheared in half but oddly some fins and nosecone profile lived upon crash. I did the aero and it was stable. This first HPR rocket gave us the design experience to design a second one in under a week and relaunch for third nationally. We blew $2.5k on first rocket which is why we transitioned to modifying kits on second launch with our own custom nosecone. You five fold costs to double altitude predicted. Second rocket we flew two H's nerfing it for a lower FAA waiver.

We started a rocket team. We traveled to three states which was expensive for a new team. Custom components will easily blow a half grand on a small multistage on L-1 size. Nobody likes to manufacture small airfoils. You will piss people off. Most say IMPOSSIBLE. Then you look hard enough and someone will for $175+ a fin. But then material choices suck compared to 6061T6. Our second rocket was modify two of Tim's kits as a last ditch Soviet Era simplify everything approach and try to place decent on like a budget that didn't exist. And we flew second iteration of structurally improved custom nosecone. Strengthen the nosecone shoulder.

Some other crap teams flew entire stock formula 54 even with stock decals. Our team was so noob we designed and built our own launch control HPR box too. We showed up with this scraggy thing and they are like we use Wilson put that up before get zapped. Tower is adjustable and used 1010 rails wasn't bad for $70 in materials.
 
Andrew_ASC said:
I designed supersonic airfoil fins, custom printed nosecones, jigs and cnc fabbed launch tower for a TRA record 20,000ft+. Outsourced manufacturing of parts. It was stable till Mach 1.5 until Custom interstage power series shell imploded. We had sanded tube all by half. Couldn't tilt head fast enough. I should just post pics in multistage thread. Nosecone has patentable features and has drag coefficient with volume we wanted. We only used a store bought tube then you guys get all wank. We imploded it at Utah. Those once or twice a year waivers suck.
We read Jim Jarvis 212 page tutorial on rolling tubes and thought out of our skill level.

We had enough fun figuring out Raven 3, minitimer4, and a TeleGPS. I was a mech student with ham license. Putting those with an I1299N-P was a bad call. We were new like Lpr new. The body tube sheared in half but oddly some fins and nosecone profile lived upon crash. I did the aero and it was stable. This first HPR rocket gave us the design experience to design a second one in under a week and relaunch for third nationally. We blew $2.5k on first rocket which is why we transitioned to modifying kits on second launch with our own custom nosecone. You five fold costs to double altitude predicted. Second rocket we flew two H's nerfing it for a lower FAA waiver.

We started a rocket team. We traveled to three states which was expensive for a new team. Custom components will easily blow a half grand on a small multistage on L-1 size. Nobody likes to manufacture small airfoils. You will piss people off. Most say IMPOSSIBLE. Then you look hard enough and someone will for $175+ a fin. But then material choices suck compared to 6061T6. Our second rocket was modify two of Tim's kits as a last ditch Soviet Era simplify everything approach and try to place decent on like a budget that didn't exist. And we flew second iteration of structurally improved custom nosecone. Strengthen the nosecone shoulder.

Some other crap teams flew entire stock formula 54 even with stock decals. Our team was so noob we designed and built our own launch control HPR box too. We showed up with this scraggy thing and they are like we use Wilson put that up before get zapped. Tower is adjustable and used 1010 rails wasn't bad for $70 in materials.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you all had a great time with the builds. Teams do what they can. To call some one a crap team makes no sense. At least they were out there doing rocketry. You guys are very lucky to have a great sponsor. Some day you will grow up and see things different and treat people with respect. Your life will not always be a perfect as you think it is at this time.

Good luck
 
We wanted to make our own tube sizes out of 6061 T6 but the machinists said it wasn't enough bore depth after we paid for materials. Also we had concerns of brazing or welding cracks. This was MD and it just wasn't doable in that format. In theory you could sim it higher if walls were paper thin but that wasn't doable. I had some lathe experience. Metals felt less intimidating than rolling CF personally. Carbon fiber was cheaper than finding lathes with enough bore depth locally. Aluminum was only cheap if we could do labor in house. We didn't have HPR mentor. We were skyping RSO's for advice. Lol.
 
They knowingly used a wrong altimeter against comp rules. I will never understand that. They constructed their kit nicely, but from a design point they did not try anything worth a engineering design class. A large portion of scoring was to write about technical designs then flight test it. SEDS has rules so lose where they would let you do a research launch if you put the effort in. The only constraint was specific impulse and also stay with APRA for comp and film it. Sorry to insult. They disqualified themselves somehow.
 
RainierWolfcastle said:
Andrew,

You have a rather common ability to read a conversation purely in order to give the response you want to. As a general suggestion you should take more time to read, and less time to respond. It will massively improve your interactions with future customers and suppliers in whatever field you end up in. It would also cut your post count down massively as you may be able to write one response instead of three more often, which would in turn mean others take more time to read and consider your posts.
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I just skip over most of his posts. They're rarely on topic and mostly annoying. You can also report his posts when they're off-topic or rude using the report icon at the bottom of the post.
 
And the Ignore feature works very well. The replies are getting as annoying as the posts.
 
This is what I always imagine Andrew_ASC looks like behind his computer:

3-2-2018 1-43-51 PM.png
 
pbernosky said:
Anyone having trouble getting response from Madcow? I've been trying to get some replacement parts for a mongoose 38mm, and nobody answers the phone, can't leave a message that lasts for more than a few seconds (which nobody responds to) and can't get an email response from their web support. (well, they responded once after a couple weeks, but now nothing).

/p
Click to expand...

Have you had any luck with contact yet?
 
boatgeek said:
I wouldn't say that engineers don't give a rat's behind about the customer. Most of them care very much about getting the customer the product that the engineer thinks that they need. Whether that's what the customer actually needed or asked for is another question entirely. :) Engineers will also do a lot for an interesting project if they can get it past or around management. It helps if you're nice to them and/or bring donuts. I loved working with the cadets at the Coast Guard or Naval Academies because they were always so darn nice to me.

Now that I think about it, engineers aren't so different from other people*. They'll usually do a lot for you if you're nice, have reasonable requests, and respect their knowledge and experience.

* Stop snickering, dammit!
Click to expand...

Where I worked we almost never let the design engineers speak directly to customers; things could go south quickly as our engineers just didn't have the training for it. We made aircraft lighting and that meant it could often be two against one; the aircraft manufacturer and an airline against us. I have seen manufacturers blame the airline, the airline blame the manufacturer and both of them blame us. You don't want to stick an engineer into the middle of that as engineers are problem solvers and just want to fix the problem. Usually, you want to know who is responsible before you discuss the actual fix.

For the record, I am an engineer and actually spent most of my time at the company in a customer facing role. You learn how to deal with people that are very upset with you and your company, and that is a skill that most design people in our company did not have. And the customers rarely sent their own engineers; they sent people who knew how to negotiate and place blame. So we wanted our design people to design stuff that met the specifications and not worry about what the customer.
 
Rocketry lacks tact. Back to the topic at hand, Madcow has always provided excellent customer service to me and will buy from them in the future but then again, I’m not an engineer.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
Okay, the mods are getting complaints about this thread now. There's off-topic and then there's off topic, 'ya know? I rarely, if ever do this, but..

You're all done arguing.

The next reply that isn't a direct response to the OP gets deleted.

Capisce?
 
For the record... I've been trying to reach Madcow for the same reason as the OP... used their webform, called and left a message... no response thus far.
 
Hi everyone, and YIKES, did not mean for this to become this kind of rant...just wanted to know if there was some problem or a better channel.

Sorry I wasn't paying attention for a few days - but finally got a response today, and the order should be finalized via a paypal invoice imminently.

And, for the record, I've always had good response with Madcow; this was the only time that they were "off grid" it seemed.

/p
 
pbernosky said:
Hi everyone, and YIKES, did not mean for this to become this kind of rant...just wanted to know if there was some problem or a better channel.

Sorry I wasn't paying attention for a few days - but finally got a response today, and the order should be finalized via a paypal invoice imminently.

And, for the record, I've always had good response with Madcow; this was the only time that they were "off grid" it seemed.

/p
Click to expand...

I'm sorry this is only you're 9th post in this forum, and are being exposed to such BS. I honestly want to help your initial question- Like others, I've had several successful transactions with MadCow, and find the quality top shelf. The one time I did need to contact the firm (by phone), it did take a few days to hear back, but I did, and got the information I needed.
This thread is REALLY atypical for the way things typically run around here, so don't give up on the rest of us...
 
Mike called me this morning, apologized and emailed the invoice. Now getting updates on my order. The mongoose will fly again! (Thanks Mike)/p
 
Andrew_ASC said:
Madcow only got about $200. They couldn't answer a simple question about a outer diameter of a product they sold for weeks. All he had to do was pick up the phone, get a caliper ,and put it around the outside of the tube or better yet five or six tubes different and average the value. We just couldn't deal with his anemic response time where weeks meant unacceptable deadline shifts ...clipped out you telling us all how awesome you are and super super super smart....
Click to expand...

You do realize he doesn't make the tubes in question, and they're likely drop shipped from Curtis, right? I mean you know everything so surely you know this.

Andrew_ASC said:
There were 88 SEDS teams last year. So somewhere between $176k-305k went to various rocket parts just for SEDS. Triple that for IREC and that's a yearly income. The smart business will pick up phone and attempt to answer a question.
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And 300 fliers are at every LDRS flying between 1,000 and 10,000 worth of parts each, and that's one launch out of hundreds going on a year.... What's your point? That SEDS is a small market? I agree.




I've had good service from madcow over the years. I'd guess that recent sudden growth (absorbing rocketry warehouse) has added a few bumps to the process.... but it'll all get worked out and be smooth again soon.
 
Last edited:
DavidMcCann said:
You do realize he doesn't make the tubes in question, and they're likely drop shipped from Curtis?
Click to expand...

I did not know that. Maybe the manufacturer of tubes had to statistically collect a bunch of lots for sample sizing to prove a tube diameter to ultimately get published by Madcow officially which may take a lot longer than a typical request not for accuracy but for a legal reason. Legal departments hate numbers. **Glare shifts to tube manufacturer**

All I know is Madcow eventually fixed the database error. It just took time. Perhaps summer launches are like peak for the rocket shops. I'll probably order from them in the future but sorry for ticking all of you off. I probably just overreacted a tad into rant. That would be cool if the mergers would help Madcow pick up more workers.
 
Andrew_ASC said:
sorry for ticking all of you off. I probably just overreacted a tad into rant.
Click to expand...

People don't get ticked off that you ask questions, or wonder why something happened. But when you're told you have a distorted grasp on reality, you defend your distortion, instead of accepting the explanation of reality. That's what lights a fire under people.
 
Andrew_ASC said:
I did not know that. Maybe the manufacturer of tubes had to statistically collect a bunch of lots for sample sizing to prove a tube diameter to ultimately get published by Madcow officially which may take a lot longer than a typical request not for accuracy but for a legal reason. Legal departments hate numbers. **Glare shifts to tube manufacturer**

All I know is Madcow eventually fixed the database error. It just took time. Perhaps summer launches are like peak for the rocket shops. I'll probably order from them in the future but sorry for ticking all of you off. I probably just overreacted a tad into rant. That would be cool if the mergers would help Madcow pick up more workers.
Click to expand...

A little history. A guy named Curtis Turner started making fiberglass rocket tubes and parts many years ago. He tried to run a few businesses, like Proline Rocketry, which went defunct, and Rocketry Warehouse, which he sold to a guy named Floyd, which also went defunct. Rocketry Warehouse was bought by Madcow, but Curtis continues to make the fiberglass. A guy named Gary Tortora used to design the kits for Proline, then Rocketry Warehouse. Gary had to drop out of rocketry due to personal reasons. I am not sure who designs the kits now.

Anyway, as others have said, rocketry businesses have a very small set of clients, and it is rare for them to be able to make a living selling rockets. It just doesn't have a big enough appeal. As such, we are very thankful for the vendors we have. I imagine that most of them could go out of business without suffering too much of a loss, and then the few of us that buy their products would have no more hobby.

They don't have shareholders, they don't have legal teams, they don't have storefronts. They are in the rocketry business because they like rocketry, not because it was a quick way (or even a slow way) to get rich.
 
GrouchoDuke said:
There are very few rocket kit manufacturers/sellers that have anything close to a legal department. Also...statistics. Riiiiiight. ;)
Click to expand...

i think they do, but theyre same folks that also work the shipping,receiving,billing,purchasing,marketing,accounting, financing,and R&D departments,too.

plus some have another full time job to boot.
 
Andrew_ASC said:
. That would be cool if the mergers would help Madcow pick up more workers.
Click to expand...

are you aware of how many people work at/for madcow or any other vendor or manufacturer of anything rocketry related?
also, just like many other industries, they have suppliers that supply them with the parts to make kits. most kits come with parts the company doesnt produce- the parts are outsourced. just like you are doing- outsourcing your parts because you dont have the ability to make them.
 

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