Tripoli L3 certification flight - can prefect witness instead of TAP member?

billdz · Feb 25, 2018

The Tripoli web page says:
"Level 3 Certification flights may take place at any insured launch. One TAP member must be present and witness the certification flight, and must witness the rocket ascend in a stable manner and descend in stabilized manner controlled by the recovery system."
https://www.tripoli.org/Level3

However, the Universal Certification Form says:
"Following is for Certifying Authority Use Only. Certifying Authority shall send this form to Tripoli Headquartersfollowing the certification flight attempt. May only be signed by a Prefect, TAP or Board Member."
https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Certification/Universal_Certification_Form.pdf

Does this mean that the prefect may witness and certify an L3 certification flight if no TAP member is present, if two TAP members have signed the Design and Documentation section?

tim cubbedge · Feb 25, 2018

Have you talked to your TAP?

Worsaer · Feb 25, 2018

The rules and form are very clear. You need a TAP to witness the flight, and two TAPs need to sign the form.

Because it's a universal form, not only for L3, that statement simply reinforces that the correct person must sign the form - it does not overrule the requirements.

blackjack2564 · Feb 25, 2018

The TAP that witnesses flight....can be ANY TAP....it does not have to be one of the two, who sign off on construction.

billdz · Feb 25, 2018

Worsaer said:
The rules and form are very clear. You need a TAP to witness the flight, and two TAPs need to sign the form.

Because it's a universal form, not only for L3, that statement simply reinforces that the correct person must sign the form - it does not overrule the requirements.

Thanks, that makes sense. My club does not have a TAP. When I was filling out the form and saw prefect just wondered if there was a way to avoid a long ride.

Steve Shannon · Feb 26, 2018

billdz said:
Thanks, that makes sense. My club does not have a TAP. When I was filling out the form and saw prefect just wondered if there was a way to avoid a long ride.

Which Prefecture do you fly with?

Steve Shannon

billdz · Feb 26, 2018

Tripoli Fort Myers, FL. My TAPs are with Tripoli Tampa. It's not a problem, I can try to certify at their launch site, just a longer drive.

MClark · Feb 26, 2018

At BALLS a few years ago we had a guy come from Egypt to certify.
M

GrouchoDuke · Feb 26, 2018

I feel your pain. We don’t have a TAP here in Vegas either.

Steve Shannon · Feb 26, 2018

billdz said:
Tripoli Fort Myers, FL. My TAPs are with Tripoli Tampa. It's not a problem, I can try to certify at their launch site, just a longer drive.

I got your PM and I responded.
Thanks,
Steve

Zeus-cat · Feb 26, 2018

MClark said:
At BALLS a few years ago we had a guy come from Egypt to certify.
M

So I am curious why they would do that. Can they use the certification in Egypt? Or is it for the times they make it over here to launch?

jsdemar · Feb 26, 2018

Zeus-cat said:
So I am curious why they would do that. Can they use the certification in Egypt? Or is it for the times they make it over here to launch?

He was a student who wanted the certs in order to do IREC test flights at Tripoli launch sites in the US.
I helped him at BALLS when he was doing his cert flights. I don't know if he ever got his L3.

tim cubbedge · Feb 26, 2018

billdz said:
Tripoli Fort Myers, FL. My TAPs are with Tripoli Tampa. It's not a problem, I can try to certify at their launch site, just a longer drive.

Its unfortunate but Tripoli Ft Myers is a dying club.

MClark · Feb 26, 2018

jsdemar said:
He was a student who wanted the certs in order to do IREC test flights at Tripoli launch sites in the US.
I helped him at BALLS when he was doing his cert flights. I don't know if he ever got his L3.

I believe he did. We held the waiver open (after everyone was done launching) for nearly two hours.
He is a good guy, if all Egyptians were like him it would be a better place.

M

tfish · Feb 26, 2018

You guys are talking about Hamed. He was with Cairo University, Egypt. In 2015 US Customs "held" about 80% of his rocket. He was pretty resourceful and "found", borrowed and begged enough stuff to compete at IREC. His rocket flew and recovered.

Tony

Larry W · Feb 27, 2018

Found some notes I had made some time ago. I believe they are right
NAR
2 NAR L-1's ========= can witness a L-1 Cert
1 NAR L-2 ========== can witness a L-1 Cert
1 NAR L-2 + any cert === can witness a L-2 cert
1 Nar L-3CC ========= can witness a L-1-3

TRA
1 TRA prefect ======= can witness a L-1 Cert
1 TRA prefect ======= can witness a L-2 Cert
1 TRA TAP ========= can witness a L-1-3 Cert

Steve Shannon · Feb 27, 2018

Larry W said:
Found some notes I had made some time ago. I believe they are right
NAR
2 NAR L-1's ========= can witness a L-1 Cert
1 NAR L-2 ========== can witness a L-1 Cert
1 NAR L-2 + any cert === can witness a L-2 cert
1 Nar L-3CC ========= can witness a L-1-3

TRA
1 TRA prefect ======= can witness a L-1 Cert
1 TRA prefect ======= can witness a L-2 Cert
1 TRA TAP ========= can witness a L-1-3 Cert

Larry, thats a useful chart. To add to it, a single L3 NAR member can witness an L2 flight also and wherever your chart says Prefect, a Tripoli Director can witness.

Steve Shannon

jimzcatz · Feb 27, 2018

This is why I strongly recommend if your club has a TAP doing double duty as PREFECT, the club should elect a separate PREFECT. Expands certification options.

MClark · Feb 27, 2018

The local club needs to do more to attract the right people.
Tripoli Gerlach has 15 TAPs

M

Kallahan11 · Feb 28, 2018

Larry W said:
Found some notes I had made some time ago. I believe they are right
NAR
2 NAR L-1's ========= can witness a L-1 Cert
1 NAR L-2 ========== can witness a L-1 Cert
1 NAR L-2 + any cert === can witness a L-2 cert
1 Nar L-3CC ========= can witness a L-1-3

TRA
1 TRA prefect ======= can witness a L-1 Cert
1 TRA prefect ======= can witness a L-2 Cert
1 TRA TAP ========= can witness a L-1-3 Cert

Level 1 and level 2 for the NAR only one witness has to be certified at that level, the other just has to be a NAR member in good standing. For level 3 two witnesses are required, one must be L3CC the other must be level 2 or 3.

jimzcatz · Feb 28, 2018

I was under the impression NAR L3 required L3CC only. 2 before and one witness.

Steve Shannon · Feb 28, 2018

Several portions of the certification sheet require a single L3CCs signature, but the flight must be signed off by two senior members, one of which must be an L3CC member and the other at least L2.

markkoelsch · Feb 28, 2018

MClark said:
The local club needs to do more to attract the right people.
Tripoli Gerlach has 15 TAPs

M

Mark, not really a fair comparing Gerlach to other Prefectures, is it?

Gerlach has BALLS and one other launch a year, right?

Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum

djs · Feb 28, 2018

Steve Shannon said:
Several portions of the certification sheet require a single L3CCs signature, but the flight must be signed off by two senior members, one of which must be an L3CC member and the other at least L2.

This is correct- when I got my L3 at MWP last year, I had a signoff from my L3CC, as well as a friend of mine who had gotten her L3 a few hours earlier

@Steve Shannon- has there ever been a discussion to allow an L1 cert via Tripoli where you don't need the prefect there? Just someone certified at L2? If I'm not wrong, you could have a launch where the club members are there, but the prefect is not available (out sick, accidentally epoxied their car keys into a motor mount, etc). In this case, no one could do their certification that day.

Steve Shannon · Feb 28, 2018

djs said:
This is correct- when I got my L3 at MWP last year, I had a signoff from my L3CC, as well as a friend of mine who had gotten her L3 a few hours earlier [emoji4]

@Steve Shannon- has there ever been a discussion to allow an L1 cert via Tripoli where you don't need the prefect there? Just someone certified at L2? If I'm not wrong, you could have a launch where the club members are there, but the prefect is not available (out sick, accidentally epoxied their car keys into a motor mount, etc). In this case, no one could do their certification that day.

Its been discussed many times and in many different ways. Several years ago the board instituted the ability for a Prefect who cannot attend to temporarily assign the ability to sign off to someone else. Since then the complaints about having enough people to certify have dropped considerably. We also encourage each Prefecture to nominate at least one and possibly two TAPs who ideally are not the Prefect. That means that there could be three people at each launch who may certify L1 and L2 and possibly two who can certify L3.

Titan II · Feb 28, 2018

MClark said:
The local club needs to do more to attract the right people.
Tripoli Gerlach has 15 TAPs

M

If one looks at the TAPS, one will see they live scattered around the country and are highly likely a member of another club in addition to Gerlach.

https://www.tripoligerlach.org/

Just go to the member list.

MClark · Feb 28, 2018

markkoelsch said:
Mark, not really a fair comparing Gerlach to other Prefectures, is it?

Gerlach has BALLS and one other launch a year, right?

Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum

You are right, it is a small club with two launches.
Clubs with more members and launches should be able to scrape up one TAP.

M

Larry W · Mar 1, 2018

Hi Steve. If you get a chance could post a final cheat sheet with the corrections you Mark and others figured out so we all have the right one to follow. I like to have a laminated copy at the LCO table at the launches. Its easy to forget or get confused when you don't have stuff quick and easy when your in the field. Thanks Steve and everyone that helped

Steve Shannon · Mar 1, 2018

Larry W said:
Hi Steve. If you get a chance could post a final cheat sheet with the corrections you Mark and others figured out so we all have the right one to follow. I like to have a laminated copy at the LCO table at the launches. Its easy to forget or get confused when you don't have stuff quick and easy when your in the field. Thanks Steve and everyone that helped

Im traveling today and tomorrow but Ill try to do it this weekend. Ill probably do it as a DOC file. Remind me when I forget please!

Steve Shannon · Mar 1, 2018

Larry W said:
Found some notes I had made some time ago. I believe they are right
NAR
2 NAR L-1's ========= can witness a L-1 Cert
1 NAR L-2 ========== can witness a L-1 Cert
1 NAR L-2 + any cert === can witness a L-2 cert
1 Nar L-3CC ========= can witness a L-1-3

TRA
1 TRA prefect ======= can witness a L-1 Cert
1 TRA prefect ======= can witness a L-2 Cert
1 TRA TAP ========= can witness a L-1-3 Cert

Hows this.
NAR
2 NAR L1's ========= can witness a L1 Cert
1 NAR L2 ========== can witness a L1 Cert
1 NAR L2 + any cert === can witness a L2 cert
1 NAR L3CC + 1 NAR L2 or L3 ========= can witness a L1-L3

TRA
1 TRA Prefect ======= can witness a L1 Cert
1 TRA Prefect ======= can witness a L2 Cert
1 TRA Director ========= can witness a L1-L2 Cert
1 TRA TAP ========= can witness a L1-L3 Cert

*corrected for TRA Directors

Steve Shannon

Tripoli L3 certification flight - can prefect witness instead of TAP member?

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