Buying black powder

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I haven't noticed anybody talking about doing this and hope it is not true. Most people talk about ground testing at a launch or in their backyard (and worrying about the neighbors).

My neighbors see me do all kinds of weird/nerdy things in my suburban backyard, and nobody has yet to complain about a little crack of ejection charge test here and there.
I don't post stuff like this unless I have first hand direct knowledge. I can verify that I have personally heard stories of 2 different flyers who did testing in a park. I suppose they both could have been making it up but it seems unlikely. And while I agree that ejection charges are generally not super loud, one of them was for a very large L3 bird and as described was very loud, so much so that those involved immediately packed up and left the area. The flyer involved was no novice either, he is very experienced.

Even testing in ones yard does not mean you are safe from neighbors who decide to call the police who are then obligated to investigate. I was testing ignitors in my back yard when my neighbor came over concerned about a possible fire. Fortunately he knew about my rocketry so it wasn't a big deal. But if he had called the police or fire department I would have had some explaining to do.

Just go to youtube and watch all the ejection charge testing videos that are posted to get an idea of all the places that folks test ejection charges. Some are clearly done in parks or other public spaces. Others are in back yards in apparent close proximity to neighbors.

My point is to take reasonable precautions and don't test where you don't have permission or might raise alarm.


Tony
 
One can pick up a black powder pistol or rifle for $200 or less. I love shooting mine. Even if you aren't into guns, you could look at it as a cheap insurance policy.
 
Did not expect so much reaction to my post! Thanks for the replies, very interesting. Today's launch looked like it would be canceled but it went forward as scheduled, so I was able to buy some powder from my usual vendor.
 
This BP crap comes up every few months & hits a nerve with many of us. It only takes 1 to screw things up by asking/buying incorrectly. There should be a reference thread put somewhere, there have been so many of them going over the same thing again & again.
That's why you got the reactions you did. Don't get me wrong....you did the correct thing by asking, It's just so many ask the same darn thing.:wink:
 
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If I was a rocketry vendor, I would be hesitant to sell black poweder.

Anyone who engages in the business of selling black powder, regardless of quantity, must be licensed as an explosives dealer. [27 CFR 555.41(b)]

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/may-i-sell-black-powder-without-license


One legit place to get it (if you don't mind paying the hazmat fees)

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501
Yeah, I spent over an hour going over my black powder sales and records with the atf last month. It's sure was fun looking at every single cans date code to verify they match my records.

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One can pick up a black powder pistol or rifle for $200 or less. I love shooting mine. Even if you aren't into guns, you could look at it as a cheap insurance policy.

Insurance for what? Owning one doesn't make using it for another activity somehow legal.

BTW: in NYS you can own an antique pistol no problem. but if you own shot, ball, or powder you need a pistol permit. Gotta love the gov't
 
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Funny how a guy with a musket can store 49 lbs 15 oz of the stuff in his bedroom, but a guy using it for rocketry has to put his one pound in a safe. :facepalm:

In a safe, and have a permit ;)


Yes, it’s not reasonable, but it’s because of an exception Congress added to the laws. We just need the kind of lobby the NRA has. (I’m glad for the exception by the way. I am a shooter also.)

I'm glad for the exemption, agree with it, and wish we could get our own too.


All these hoops to jump through for something that should be no more regulated than gasoline

Gasoline has too many regulations on it. I'd say no more regulated than sugar ;)
 
In a safe, and have a permit ;)




I'm glad for the exemption, agree with it, and wish we could get our own too.




Gasoline has too many regulations on it. I'd say no more regulated than sugar ;)

Come on guys. BP can blow your fingers off!!:wink::facepalm::lol: Remember the fight for APCP? Stuff wasn't any worse than a road flare (I know I'm preach'in to the choir here.)
I think it's asinine one can't keep 1lb in a safe, in a cool dry place unless they fly under the radar.

I remember folks "giving" it out to newbies in 35mm film canisters. A little bit goes a long way unless one is flying monstrosity rockets. Kurt
 
Yes, it’s not reasonable, but it’s because of an exception Congress added to the laws. We just need the kind of lobby the NRA has. (I’m glad for the exception by the way. I am a shooter also.)

Are you sure it was congress that added the exception and not the ATF in their rule making? Congress tends to pass laws and leave the enforcement to the executive branch and they can use "rule making" to add department regulations to the law and pretty much do what they want. The ATF list of explosives isn't a law pass by congress, it's a rule put in place by the ATF in their "enforcement" of the law. That is why the list includes "Ammonium Perchlorate mixtures" as being explosives. The law suit got APCP exempted. Congress didn't put that in the law, ATF is using that definition as an enforcement criteria so they can go after you if they want because it fits their "rules". It's all politics....
 
Are you sure it was congress that added the exception and not the ATF in their rule making? Congress tends to pass laws and leave the enforcement to the executive branch and they can use "rule making" to add department regulations to the law and pretty much do what they want. The ATF list of explosives isn't a law pass by congress, it's a rule put in place by the ATF in their "enforcement" of the law. That is why the list includes "Ammonium Perchlorate mixtures" as being explosives. The law suit got APCP exempted. Congress didn't put that in the law, ATF is using that definition as an enforcement criteria so they can go after you if they want because it fits their "rules". It's all politics....

I am. Congress put the exemption in there to prevent the Explosives List (which is maintained by ATF as you say) from affecting BP shooting sports.
We need to realize that smokeless powder and black powder substitutes have been added to the explosives list except for use by shooters also.
Unless someone in our hobby does something stupid we probably won’t see a strong effort by ATF to clamp down on us. It only takes one incident to change that though.
This link leads to the laws in the CFR regarding explosives:
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...mc=true&node=pt27.3.555&rgn=div5#sp27.3.555.a

555.23 establishes the ATF authority to create and maintain a current explosives list. (Congress would not want to have to pass a new law each time a new explosive is developed. It’s much easier for the ATF to add one to its list, although there are requirements for those changes also)
555.41.iv establishes the exemption for antiques and replicas.
 
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I don't think we'll see a direct clamp down. My fear is more indirect. Things like the boston marathon may lead to someone getting pulled over with a pound in the trunk seeing some issues, or it'll be harder to get/find (I have a hard time finding 4f in NYS due to state regs, or so I'm told). I doubt we'll ever see anyone on the flight line going car to car.
 
I don't think we'll see a direct clamp down. My fear is more indirect. Things like the boston marathon may lead to someone getting pulled over with a pound in the trunk seeing some issues, or it'll be harder to get/find (I have a hard time finding 4f in NYS due to state regs, or so I'm told). I doubt we'll ever see anyone on the flight line going car to car.

I agree completely; the most likely scenario is they would make it so it’s harder for us to get.
 
People in MD, VA, WV ought to start looking for friends in Colonial Williamsburg. Lots and lots of muskets getting shot down there. :wink:
 
I thought I had a lead on a black powder supplier, but...it was just a flash in the pan!

I'll just grab me coat and go now...
 
If I wanted to be fully-compliant and get the permit and the box ... the spec looks like it calls for 12ga metal or 2 inch hardwood. Commercially-available Type 2 magazines look like they run $300. Oof. Would a metal truck box work, if lined with a wooden box to meet the non-sparking requirement? My other thoughts would be:
1: Buying the cheapest 12g sheetmetal I can, plus a bunch of angle iron, then bolt the sheetmetal to the angle iron to make a box, then install hasps and locks.
2: (Probably cheaper) find someone who can weld and have them fabricate a box for me.
3: Something else?
(I'm not even going to mention the "2 inches of hardwood" thing. A 2-inch-thick oak box would be easy to make, but damn it would be expensive. And I'd still have to cover it with sheetmetal)
 
If I wanted to be fully-compliant and get the permit and the box ... the spec looks like it calls for 12ga metal or 2 inch hardwood. Commercially-available Type 2 magazines look like they run $300. Oof. Would a metal truck box work, if lined with a wooden box to meet the non-sparking requirement? My other thoughts would be:
1: Buying the cheapest 12g sheetmetal I can, plus a bunch of angle iron, then bolt the sheetmetal to the angle iron to make a box, then install hasps and locks.
2: (Probably cheaper) find someone who can weld and have them fabricate a box for me.
3: Something else?
You need a type 4 magazine, per the atf orange book. I have a job box on a concrete pad for mine.

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You need a type 4 magazine, per the atf orange book. I have a job box on a concrete pad for mine.

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OK, thanks. I'm recalling (it might have been NFPA and not ATF) that an attached garage is not "inside a residence" for the purposes of storage. If that's the case, it looks like a sturdy box with two hasps, each with a padlock (doesn't have to be 12ga steel, just sturdy and theftproof) would fit the bill?
 
OK, thanks. I'm recalling (it might have been NFPA and not ATF) that an attached garage is not "inside a residence" for the purposes of storage. If that's the case, it looks like a sturdy box with two hasps, each with a padlock (doesn't have to be 12ga steel, just sturdy and theftproof) would fit the bill?
Probably, but you have to get exemptions from local fire and the atf for that style, and I'm not familiar with it as I have an outdoor, with 10k lb limit. Can you meet the distance table from other occupied structures? Your house is usually exempt.

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Just make your own BP or Crimson eject powder..
Anyone who makes own motors probably has all you need.
The Crimson formula can be found on the Canada Sugar guy's web
 
Are you sure it was congress that added the exception and not the ATF in their rule making?

The laws governing explosives are at 18 USC Chapter 40 and include the BP exemption and a requirement to publish a list of explosives. (said list most recently published on 28 December)
 
If I wanted to be fully-compliant and get the permit and the box ... the spec looks like it calls for 12ga metal or 2 inch hardwood. Commercially-available Type 2 magazines look like they run $300. Oof. Would a metal truck box work, if lined with a wooden box to meet the non-sparking requirement? My other thoughts would be:
1: Buying the cheapest 12g sheetmetal I can, plus a bunch of angle iron, then bolt the sheetmetal to the angle iron to make a box, then install hasps and locks.
2: (Probably cheaper) find someone who can weld and have them fabricate a box for me.
3: Something else?
(I'm not even going to mention the "2 inches of hardwood" thing. A 2-inch-thick oak box would be easy to make, but damn it would be expensive. And I'd still have to cover it with sheetmetal)
Balsa is (technically) hardwood...

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Twice the fruit in one convenient peel.

Too funny,, but back to BP. Never have I been asked how it would be used. Also I have used Pyrodex and pistol/shotgun powders, Bullseye, RedDot, and so on. You could experiment with any of the fast pistol or shotgun powders and they are cleaner than BP.
 
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