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Hi all,
Recently about to start my First High Powered Rocket Build - (Details will be in a later post), i have done a few small rockets before.
More specifically i had a question about Rocket Motors. I know you require a level 1 certification for specific impulse class H motors to purchase , but also confused by some places mentioning you need a low level explosives license?

Also since i will be building this rocket from scratch that will include the rocket motor itself. What are the rules for manufacturing "High powered Motors" by yourself versus commercially bought "High powered Motors"? *Located in the state of South Carolina, do not know the different rules in each state and how they vary.

If someone could explain or provide a reference for the rules, licenses, and certifications i might need that would be much appreciated.

*as a side note i will be testing different types of APCP and R-Candy Motors

Cheers
--Ed
 
The explosives permit is old information. It no longer applies.

Are you planning to manufacture a motor from scratch or just building a commercial motor? For L1 flights, you can't fly a homemade motor at most club launches. Tripoli allows L2 certified members to fly them, they are called "research motors" and there are some specific rules about it you can read up on.

Note that research motor discussions are not allowed in the open forums here. There is a restricted access forum here for that you can apply for access to. So no formulas etc here.
 
Welcome to the forum and the realm of empty wallets.

I know someone will chime in with more detailed information (and at least as many with incorrect information) :) but the gist if it is:

To purchase connercial H and I and some G motors you have to be level 1 through a recognized organization (TRA, NAR) or college, government answer so on. Many of these motors have to be built, but they are certified as such and not considered research or EX motors.

To fly research motors at a launch it has to be a TRA Research launch and you have to be TRA level 2 certified, doesn't matter if the motor is a D, if it is a research motor, you have to be level 2 through TRA.
As for research motors, as far as I know, you can buy all the stuff and assemble a motor and fly it without being part of any club or at an organized launch, you just have to do all the legwork yourself as for permits, waivers and such, but all that is beyond me.
 
Thanks for the reply,

I am looking to manufacture a APCP motor from scratch "research motor". Is all the information on the Tripoli Website?
 
Get the book “Experimental Composite Propellant” by Terry McCreary. That’s a good place to start gaining knowledge on APCP.

just FYI, pepare your wallet if you decide to start making your own research EX motors. Besides the chemicals cost. You will need motor hardware, mixing equipment, possibly a vacuum chamber, possibly a curing oven, casting tubes, mandrels or coring tools, high quality scales, on and on...

I was into it for almost 1k before my first EX motor fired in a test stand. Don’t go into EX thinking you’re going to save money by making your own. Yes bigger motors can be made cheaper that Commercial reloads but the road of learning to get there is a long one.

if you really want to make your own, come on in the water is fine! :)
 
Ok, so let's go thru it.

tripoli is the only organization that recognizes "research" motors. In order to fly research motors you must be level 2 certified, and yes you must do the certs on commercial motors.

Sure, there's info on making motors on the web. The only question I have is how much do you value your health and the structure you plan to make them in?
If you value them, the web is not the place to learn. Not everything is best learned via U-tube.

Find a mentor who will help keep you safe.

Now, APCP motors aren't considered explosive (Thanks, Judge Walton!) but it's a different story about sugar. To be completely legal you can't carry sugar motors on the interstates, or across state lines.

Flying either can be complicated. If you have your own property, or have a friend, then all you need is an FAA waiver. Of course, you own the entire liability. Someone gets hurt, or start a fire or damage someone else's property and I hope you got deep pockets. I'd doubt that your personal insurance will be at all interested in the situation.

OR, if you're already TRA level 2 or higher, go to a launch and have fun realizing that they would take care of the FAA waiver, and now you got some insurance

I'd still recommend that you get an "umbrella" policy for your house / rental insurance. It's not that expensive to avoid yet another million in liability.
 
I know a guy who makes his own big motors, such as M motors. He does save money making his own, but there is substantial equipment cost up front for the machinery to do it safely and efficiently. Also, ACPC is hygroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Therefore, you need to vacuum seal any motors you make or burn them before they absorb too much moisture to be useable.

He gets together with other people to make motors as it cuts down on the cost. Each person buys part of what they need and they buy it in bulk.

Stick with commercial motors or find a very knowledgeable mentor who can show you how to do it safely. I have seen some of the do it yourself videos and there is no way I would do some of the things they do. It doesn't make it safe just because someone does it once or twice for a video and they don't have a problem. making motors can be dangerous, even if you know what you are doing. Think about it, you are making something that you want to be very volatile. Mythbusters did an episode on making sugar motors and they DID have problems.
 
Thanks for the reply,

I am looking to manufacture a APCP motor from scratch "research motor". Is all the information on the Tripoli Website?

Before you can do this you need to certify L1 and L2. Then you would be allowed to fly a research motor at a Tripoli Launch.

If you have not flown rockets of this size I strongly suggest you get that down before jumping to making your own motors.

Then, as others have mentioned, I would get Terry’s book. Then I would find a mentor- someone experienced in making motors.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
Terry’s book is nice but outdated. Good info, but I didn’t find it practically useful.

Find a mentor or two. People talk about it not saving money because of start up costs. iDKWTF they’re talking about.
 
Terry’s book is nice but outdated. Good info, but I didn’t find it practically useful.

Find a mentor or two. ...

+1 The local mentor is the key to successful motor building and knowing the laws in your locality. The rules of the national hobby rocket organizations, which when followed provide members with insurance coverage, may or may not carry the force of law where you are. The tripoli web site or local pyrotechnic organizations may be the place to start. Isn't our friend CJ (trf handle blackjack2564) a South Carolinian ?
 
+1 The local mentor is the key to successful motor building and knowing the laws in your locality. The rules of the national hobby rocket organizations, which when followed provide members with insurance coverage, may or may not carry the force of law where you are. The tripoli web site or local pyrotechnic organizations may be the place to start. Isn't our friend CJ (trf handle blackjack2564) a South Carolinian ?

In general, legality isn’t much of a concern. It’s legal to get all these chemicals, own and store them, and the product.

I think the main reason to work with mentors is to spend less on cases and nozzles. You’re just going to have a better experience with help.
 
I'm a relatively recent L2, and I want to say this thread scares me a little. First that such a reckless activity is being considered (although I know it goes on all the time) but also that the TRA requirements are so lacking. I would expect that a more demanding certification would be required before untested explosives are allowed at a launch site. I guess when I park at the next launch I'll ask those on either side if they have experimental motors and their level of experience before I decide to remain or move.
 
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Do you interview your fellow fliers on whether they assembled their motors correctly? What if they don't store their BP charges safely?

I'm not saying we shouldn't be cautious and reasonable, just that the most dangerous part of any launch I go to is merging onto the freeway.
 
The dangers with experimental motors are in the making, and the flying, not the fiddling around at the parking lot. If you're skiddish, you should look at who's playing with black powder...much more problematic at times....
So, have you flown dual deploy?

Start up costs are real, you gotta get the chems and they won't sell you exactly what you need for each batch (unless you pay a premium).
Few people buy one liner and casting tube at time
Most (vast majority) also bought a mixer and did some kind of vacuum setup
I went to mixing school, can't recall how much that was
My days before my Hobort I was using the 7L kitchenaid and my HW ran me about 400, used.
I got lucky and went halfers with someone to buy out their chems, as they were getting out of EX, $800
A dozen casting tubes were like $100 back then, so before my first solo mix cost me $1300 to make about a J's worth of grains.
I did mix more with the chems I had, however I was still in for a lot of money to start.

Sure, if you fly M's you'll get it all back (eventually), but if you're flying H & I probably never.
 
I'm a relatively recent L2, and I want to say this thread scares me a little. First that such a reckless activity is being considered (although I know it goes on all the time) but also that the TRA requirements are so lacking. I would expect that a more demanding certification would be required before untested explosives are allowed at a launch site. I guess when I park at the next launch I'll ask those on either side if they have experimental motors and their level of experience before I decide to remain or move.

Regards, Rich
NAR 59673, L2

Well THE thing that distinguishes TRA from the NAR is the Research path IMO. You may want to have a discussion with your local prefecture officers to get a better perspective on EX activities at your launches.

Just make sure you stay at least 100 feet away from these guys. :wink:

ghostbusters.jpg
 
I would expect that a more demanding certification would be required before untested explosives are allowed at a launch site. I guess when I park at the next launch I'll ask those on either side if they have experimental motors and their level of experience before I decide to remain or move.

Just a note here- APCP and sugar motors aren't "explosives", and the dangers of an EX motor aren't really any different from a commercial motor at the same size/motor class. Also, I know it's not perfect, but an RSO would be in their right to decline approving any EX flight from someone they don't know or doesn't have good answers as to "what's in the motor case?".

You could also ask someone who made an EX motor more about their process. How do they know it's safe? I bet if you met someone at a launch who was flying EX motors, they'd be glad to tell you about what they were doing (within reason).
 
I'm a relatively recent L2, and I want to say this thread scares me a little. First that such a reckless activity is being considered (although I know it goes on all the time) but also that the TRA requirements are so lacking. I would expect that a more demanding certification would be required before untested explosives are allowed at a launch site. I guess when I park at the next launch I'll ask those on either side if they have experimental motors and their level of experience before I decide to remain or move.

Regards, Rich
NAR 59673, L2

I’m sorry you feel that way, Rich. First, I hope that as you gain experience you’ll learn not to refer to any propellant or rocket motor as an explosive. Those of us who had to deal with uninformed people applying that misnomer in the past have no desire to repeat the ordeal.
Second, a failure in a research motor is no different than a failure in a commercial motor. Remember also that motor failures are statistically certain to occur. I’ve been to many launches. Recovery failures are probably an order of magnitude more likely to happen.
Please also consider the layers we apply at a launch to mitigate risk when a motor failure occurs. If you haven’t read the Tripoli Research Safety Code, I suggest you do so.
Safe distances, prohibitions against unnecessary personnel on the range, motor designs that seek to minimize hazards, all work together to allow our members a safe place to test their research motors.
 
I agree with most of what has been said. I've met EX motor builders and I'm impressed by their knowledge and experiences, and can only assume their judgement coincides with their knowledge/experience. My concern is the motor builder without knowledge/experience and mentoring. I doubt motors built by those with knowledge and experience are any more dangerous than commercial motors, but what about the inexperienced? I had to take a written test for my L2. I'm working on my L3 and hope to launch late this spring, and I'm required to present documentation to show a level of knowledge/skill before I launch. Why not a minimal test and documentation for motor builders?
 
Am I the only one who noticed the grammar and syntax in the message of the OP, in addition to the fact they have only had 2 posts (both in this thread)?

I guess I am a cynic and not a very trusting person, but I have my doubts about giving any information to this or any other person who is not known by others in our online social media group of rocket enthusiasts.

If they come to a NAR and/or Tripoli club and launch a few rockets and THEN ask me these questions I'll answer them based upon what I observe in the field.

Others will base their information disclosure decisions on a different criteria as they see fit, this just happens to be my criteria.
 
Sounds like just someone new and excited and exploring the hobby. Likely they’ll quickly realize commercial motors are a lot of fun, and it’s not a bad idea to get rocket building sorted out before moving into making motors. No point trying to learn everything st once, makes the learning process harder. But that’s just what I think. I can understand people wanting to do it all and make everything themselves. In reality though, I think that’s hard to do right from the onset.
 
Hello Ed,

Welcome to the world of hobby rocketry.

I must say that I'm a bit worried about a thing or two. First, you mentioned right off the start that you've "built a few small rockets." That's great! So have any number of Cub Scouts and even some Tiger Cubs. But I must say that this has barely helped start you on the road to high power rocketry and has done absolutely nothing to prepare you for building your own rocket motors of any size from scratch.

Second, you mention that you're going to start your first High Power Rocket Build. Again, this is great, but are you and your design actually ready for the world of High Power Rocketry? There's a long road that you have in front of you, but you seem ready to skip a few (or more than just a few) miles worth of experience and get right into building your own motors from scratch. You haven't even built your first high power rocket, let alone flown it for a successful L-1 certification flight. Think of this process as building and climbing a tall ladder. Skipping rungs will just end up getting you in trouble one way or another.

If you are building your L-1 cert flight rocket from scratch that's also great. I did that very thing myself, lo these many years ago, But I must ask who is helping you to make the transition from low-power rocket design and construction techniques to high power rocket design and construction techniques? There is a huge difference between the two. I had help and I needed it. My initial designs were great, but completely unsuited for high power rocketry.

You asked about the rules for building your own motors from scratch. I would suggest that you first check out the rules for high power rocketry certification. Why? Because you may not certify at any level with a scratch built rocket motor. You must use a commercially manufactured and certified motor for any and all high power certification flights. So no, building your L-1 cert flight rocket will not include building your motor from scratch. There are motors on the market that will require you to assemble the motor but that's a world of difference away from building your own motor from scratch.

As far as providing you with a reference for the rules, licenses, and certifications you might need? I would suggest going to the www.tripoli.org web site and scroll down and read everything about certifying Level one. All the information that you need is there if you keep reading. Its ok if you want to read about research motors, but you're not high enough on the experience ladder for that yet.

Next, you mention that you will be "testing different types of APCP and R-Candy Motors." Let's start with the testing of the different types of APCP motors. Right now the only APCP motors that you or I can buy are all commercially manufactured low power motors. They're great. I prefer testing them in rocket flights myself. These motors have already been certified, their propellants classified, and their properties verified. If you want to build a test stand with a load cell and all the other recording necessities, that's a fine goal to work towards, but again, you're not there yet.

If you are planning on testing your own APCP "research motors" then that's also a fine goal to aim for down the road. But you're not there yet. If you've read the responses on this thread you will note that building your own motors is costly, can be dangerous, and will most certainly not save you any money until you are building them in at least L motor size if not larger. And even then it will take time to pay for the initially greater costs of all the equipment and chemicals.

As far as I know, there are no commercially available "R-Candy" motors or any other "sugar" motors for that matter on the market. There are none that are certified for rocketry use. So please do not start buying them from anybody in order to start testing them. That would be very illegal. And in the same way, please do not start making your own sugar motors following anybody's YouTube videos expecting to show up at a NAR or TRA club launch someplace and expect to be able to fly them. It won't happen.

You have a long climb ahead of you in this hobby. Its a good climb. Its a fun climb. Its a climb that you will find all sorts of people ready and willing to help you move further and higher. But there's no substitute for experience when it comes to building, designing, and climbing the ladder. Please don't skip any rungs on your way up. There's no substitute for experience.

And lastly, remember this, there's no such thing as a free launch!

Brad, the "Rocket Rev.," Wilson
 
I'm a relatively recent L2, and I want to say this thread scares me a little. First that such a reckless activity is being considered (although I know it goes on all the time) but also that the TRA requirements are so lacking.

You know nothing of what you speak. TRA has a very good research program and requires at least an L2 certification to pursue. And a great group of experienced mentors to help. And APCP is not an explosive. We won a lawsuit against the government on that account. Parking next to someone with research motors is no more dangerous than parking next to someone with commercial motors. Motors get lit out at the pads, not the parking lot.
 
I agree with most of what has been said. I've met EX motor builders and I'm impressed by their knowledge and experiences, and can only assume their judgement coincides with their knowledge/experience. My concern is the motor builder without knowledge/experience and mentoring. I doubt motors built by those with knowledge and experience are any more dangerous than commercial motors, but what about the inexperienced? I had to take a written test for my L2. I'm working on my L3 and hope to launch late this spring, and I'm required to present documentation to show a level of knowledge/skill before I launch. Why not a minimal test and documentation for motor builders?

We could apply stiffer requirements, but at least for now, most of us are comfortable with the Tripoli L2 test, successful flight, and Tripoli membership as minimal standards for participation in Research launches. Tripoli provides a safe framework for research activities consisting of a Research Safety Code and Tripoli Research Launches (which require a Launch Director and an RSO). Our Safety Codes limits the design of research motors and mitigates the risks. Our range operations add safe distances. To require more formality could drive people away, towards more independent experimentation, which could be a worse case.
 
We could apply stiffer requirements, but at least for now, most of us are comfortable with the Tripoli L2 test, successful flight, and Tripoli membership as minimal standards for participation in Research launches. Tripoli provides a safe framework for research activities consisting of a Research Safety Code and Tripoli Research Launches (which require a Launch Director and an RSO). Our Safety Codes limits the design of research motors and mitigates the risks. Our range operations add safe distances. To require more formality could drive people away, towards more independent experimentation, which could be a worse case.

Please no more rules/stiffer requirements for us Research motor makers Steve! :)

When I mentor someone on motor making, I have my own set of requirements that they must meet before I will even enter into a discussion with them about this aspect of the hobby. Perhaps a bit harsh, but I want to be sure they have fun and stay safe. So far the few that I have mentored have had fun and been safe. Not saying everything they have done has been a success, but they have failed safely and the only things damaged were some rockets, hardware and some egos.

I am by no means an expert and do not claim to be one. I have taken what my mentor taught me and what I have learned and provide this to those that I mentor.
 
Please no more rules/stiffer requirements for us Research motor makers Steve! :)

When I mentor someone on motor making, I have my own set of requirements that they must meet before I will even enter into a discussion with them about this aspect of the hobby. Perhaps a bit harsh, but I want to be sure they have fun and stay safe. So far the few that I have mentored have had fun and been safe. Not saying everything they have done has been a success, but they have failed safely and the only things damaged were some rockets, hardware and some egos.

I am by no means an expert and do not claim to be one. I have taken what my mentor taught me and what I have learned and provide this to those that I mentor.

Thank you! This is exactly why we don’t want or need more rules.
 
Am I the only one who noticed the grammar and syntax in the message of the OP, in addition to the fact they have only had 2 posts (both in this thread)?

I guess I am a cynic and not a very trusting person, but I have my doubts about giving any information to this or any other person who is not known by others in our online social media group of rocket enthusiasts.

If they come to a NAR and/or Tripoli club and launch a few rockets and THEN ask me these questions I'll answer them based upon what I observe in the field.

Others will base their information disclosure decisions on a different criteria as they see fit, this just happens to be my criteria.

+1...

I can't believe how far this has gotten...

I read post #1 as an obvious attempt at inciting riot...

Teddy
 
Just sounds excited to me. Go to a launch, get to know the club, work towards L2, find a mentor, try not to spend all your time and money.
 
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